Oscar Pistorius Defense

[minor4th]

Here's an example of a psych evaluation done at Weskoppies last year for a man charged with murder. The trial was held at the same court as OP and the accused was being evaluated as to whether he was fit to stand trial and criminally responsible for his actions.



http://www.jacarandafm.com/post/modimolle-monster-full-psychological-report/

Thanks for posting that. Interesting seeing a real live evaluation.

For some reason it seems a little thin to me though. I guess there would have been more analysis if they did find a diagnosable mental illness

 

[4MrsB]

Fury in your words, Part 5: Oscar, Reeva and Intimate-Partner Violence
Fury in your words, Part 6: Oscar, Reeva and Intimate-partner violence
Fury in your words, Part 4: Oscar, Reeva and Intimate-Partner Violence
Fury in your words, Part 3: Oscar, Reeva and Intimate-partner Violence
Fury in your words, Part 2: Oscar, Reeva and Intimate Partner Violence

If you are interested, please google on "Fury in your words", a study from S.Davies, Clinical Psychologist.

:coffeews:

Thank you all for your great posts!

Thank you for the above suggested articles by Sally Davies. Although the author states numerous times, that the events of that night will need to be judged & weighed in the courtroom, she offers a great deal of insightful information to ponder with regards to controlling partners & volatile relationships & why they may be that way. Signs to be aware of, etc. And then correlates them back to statements, testimony & facts that we know existed between Reeva & OP. She included several statements and events from friends and family that were interesting, and had not been brought up in the courtroom, as these were not from witnesses. People like the family she lived with in Jo'burg.

I found the articles very interesting. Thanks.

 

[cottonweaver]

Thanks to From Germany

The six articles he recommended on Sally Davies's blog are definitely well worth a read.

http://sallydavies.co.za/fury-words-part-6-oscar-reeva-intimate-partner-violence/

Helps to explain context as opposed to a classic "motive"

 

[JudgeJudi]

The first paragraph of the attached article talks about OP's jealousy and controlling issues.

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20678557,00.html

 

[JudgeJudi]

Here are some photos of Reeva from her first fashion shoot followed by others taken in more recent times.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-shooting-reeva-steenkamp-3142072

 

[ColonelMustard]

Hello, all! Jumping in with a few questions/comments, myself:

1. ( I were Masipa, the first thing I would want to do it take a field trip to his house and get a 1st-hand idea of the space in which this all happened. A to-scale toilet area isn't enough. If I were Masipa, would I have the option of going there?

2. The women "judge" sitting to Masipa's left asked two questions together at one point, although I don't know to whom they were addressed.
---->A. Did Reeva know how to use the alarm? ( response was yes)
---->B. Was the light in the toilet working that night. (response was no)

3. Reeva eating downstairs: I always figured she went down there alone. He came down and started/continued the fight.

4. I may be missing something but you can't actually permanently delete ipad browsing histories. You maybe can on the ipad, itself, but the URLs and times are logged by the ISPs as they link to IP addresses. Law enforcement (and/or the NSA...even in South Africa, no doubt!) can get ahold of those just like they did the texts.

5. The fight: OP strikes me as being as passive aggressive as he is immature. Of course, the two are linked

I think he was pissed about something having to do with her lunch (the day before?) with her old boyfriend, or some other weird thing related to a guy. To "get back" at her he surfed and wanted her to know it. (Maybe they did start looking together at cars and THEN he just switched to to really "get her back", as in "in your face, b#tch.")

Rather than deal with it she went downstairs? She ate (and of course it would probably be something like vegatables/cheese, and just a little bit ...she was a model, always trying to watch/lose weight. He even mentioned that).

OP liked it even LESS that she didn't take the bait so he followed her down a few minutes later and kept trying to push her buttons. Whether he finally did or she just got sick of his antics, she did start yelling at him. Then, whether she told him it was over or/ and that she was leaving - either way, it enraged him even more.

He's left standing there for a couple of seconds, then comes charging after her up the stairs screaming "GET THE **** OUT OF MY HOUSE" Terrified she locks? the bedroom door?
He starts bashing right through it.
As he's getting in, she's shouting louder an louder in panic.
Just as he making it in, she runs into the main bathroom area, shouting, screaming, pleading with with him to leave her alone.
Maybe he again says, "I TOLD YOU TO GET THE **** OUT OF MY HOUSE"
He walks over and gets his gun.
As she hears him entering the passageway coming after her, she throws open the window and shouts "help! help!
As he moves further down the passageway toward her, he mocks her, repeating... "help, help, help"
She says that if he gets any closer she'll call the police. As his hand with the gun first appears, she sees she that he has his gun and jumps into the toilet room, screaming.
He comes fully around the corner just as she's pulling the door shut, her eyes are directly on him.
In that split second, she sees him pointing the gun directly at her as he shouts, "LIKE HELL YOU"RE GOING TO CALL THE POLICE!!" (...and ruin my life).
She lets out a bloodcurdling scream just as she's turned the lock at the last second. (That's why she's standing right there.)
He fires the gun once, hears the magazine rack, moves over and shoots three more times.

========

On one level, I understand why it seems logical in his version that he would ask her to call the police. On the other hand, he mixes truth with fiction to cover his butt. I've could never figure out why someone who doesn't like or respect the police would be telling her to call them - until it occurred to me that he had to add that in case someone heard him shouting at her "LIKE HELL YOU"RE GOING TO CALL THE POLICE"

Do I have any guesses about how the bat fits into my scenario? No.
Do I have any idea whether he was on his legs or his stumps? No.
Does it fit the timeline? No.

I also have a suspicion that the fan (yes, only one fan - on the balcony) is also involved here somehow. As in, he drifted off after asking her to bring it in. She was still up and hadn't done it yet when he was arose fter only a few minutes dozing, and at some point used that as an excuse /another excuse to find fault with her/ yell at her.

Long post, but I was on a roll. If anyone has any answers to my questions further above, I'd appreciate your insights.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Here are some photos of Reeva from her first fashion shoot followed by others taken in more recent times.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-shooting-reeva-steenkamp-3142072

The wedding dress pic was her dad's favourite.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Hello, all! Jumping in with a few questions/comments, myself:

1. ( I were Masipa, the first thing I would want to do it take a field trip to his house and get a 1st-hand idea of the space in which this all happened. A to-scale toilet area isn't enough. If I were Masipa, would I have the option of going there?

I would hope Judge Masipa visits the scene, no excuse not to imo. In Australia, Simon Gittany threw his gf off his apartment's balcony in a fit of rage, the Judge presiding over the case visited the apartment and took particular note of the balcony.

2. The women "judge" sitting to Masipa's left asked two questions together at one point, although I don't know to whom they were addressed.
---->A. Did Reeva know how to use the alarm? ( response was yes)
---->B. Was the light in the toilet working that night. (response was no)

The lady accessor also asked Mr Stander about the alarm control, if it made a noise when being used. IMO, this was to ascertain whether using the alarm control was loud enough for OP to hear Reeva leaving the bedroom as OP said he had no idea whether Reeva left to go eat downstairs. Mr Stander was vague about the answer.

3. Reeva eating downstairs: I always figured she went down there alone. He came down and started/continued the fight.

Good theory.

4. I may be missing something but you can't actually permanently delete ipad browsing histories. You maybe can on the ipad, itself, but the URLs and times are logged by the ISPs as they link to IP addresses. Law enforcement (and/or the NSA...even in South Africa, no doubt!) can get ahold of those just like they did the texts.

I agree.

5. The fight: OP strikes me as being as passive aggressive as he is immature. Of course, the two are linked

I agree. Reeva was mature and intelligent, imo, too much for OP to handle.

I think he was pissed about something having to do with her lunch (the day before?) with her old boyfriend, or some other weird thing related to a guy. To "get back" at her he surfed and wanted her to know it. (Maybe they did start looking together at cars and THEN he just switched to to really "get her back", as in "in your face, b#tch.")

Rather than deal with it she went downstairs? She ate (and of course it would probably be something like vegatables/cheese, and just a little bit ...she was a model, always trying to watch/lose weight. He even mentioned that).

OP liked it even LESS that she didn't take the bait so he followed her down a few minutes later and kept trying to push her buttons. Whether he finally did or she just got sick of his antics, she did start yelling at him. Then, whether she told him it was over or/ and that she was leaving - either way, it enraged him even more.

He's left standing there for a couple of seconds, then comes charging after her up the stairs screaming "GET THE **** OUT OF MY HOUSE" Terrified she locks? the bedroom door?
He starts bashing right through it.
As he's getting in, she's shouting louder an louder in panic.
Just as he making it in, she runs into the main bathroom area, shouting, screaming, pleading with with him to leave her alone.
Maybe he again says, "I TOLD YOU TO GET THE **** OUT OF MY HOUSE"
He walks over and gets his gun.
As she hears him entering the passageway coming after her, she throws open the window and shouts "help! help!
As he moves further down the passageway toward her, he mocks her, repeating... "help, help, help"
She says that if he gets any closer she'll call the police. As his hand with the gun first appears, she sees she that he has his gun and jumps into the toilet room, screaming.
He comes fully around the corner just as she's pulling the door shut, her eyes are directly on him.
In that split second, she sees him pointing the gun directly at her as he shouts, "LIKE HELL YOU"RE GOING TO CALL THE POLICE!!" (...and ruin my life).
She lets out a bloodcurdling scream just as she's turned the lock at the last second. (That's why she's standing right there.)
He fires the gun once, hears the magazine rack, moves over and shoots three more times.

========

On one level, I understand why it seems logical in his version that he would ask her to call the police. On the other hand, he mixes truth with fiction to cover his butt. I've could never figure out why someone who doesn't like or respect the police would be telling her to call them - until it occurred to me that he had to add that in case someone heard him shouting at her "LIKE HELL YOU"RE GOING TO CALL THE POLICE"

Do I have any guesses about how the bat fits into my scenario? No.
Do I have any idea whether he was on his legs or his stumps. No.

I also have a suspicion that the fan (yes, only one fan - on the balcony) is also involved here somehow. As in, he drifted off after asking her to bring it in. She was still up and hadn't done it yet when he was arose fter only a few minutes dozing, and at some point used that as an excuse /another excuse to find fault with her/ yell at her.

Long post, but I was on a roll. If anyone has any answers to my questions further above, I'd appreciate your insights.

It is difficult to know what the motive was, but jealousy and a fit of rage can lead to the outcome of that night, OP definitely had those characteristics.

OP telling Reeva to call the police doesn't ring true, he hated the police. My control freak ex also dealt with an intruder in our yard, he attacked him with a baseball bat till the drunken guy took off, he never involved the police. He had a .22 rifle and a shotgun at his disposal.

If I wanted to wildly believe that OP's story is in some aspect true, I would say he heard a noise, rose from his bed without a word to Reeva, he grabbed his gun, stormed the bathroom and shot four times to kill whoever he perceived was behind the door. If this account were true, OP at no time thought of Reeva or her safety. :moo:

OP's version is just pure fantasy imo.

 

[ColonelMustard]

....my snip...

2. He made the calls before he pulled Reeva out of the bathroom

This is really weird. I've been watching parts of the trial over and over again. It just occurred to me that, regardless of his testimony, I always assumed that he made the calls - and other things - before he pulled her out of the bathroom.

I assumed that he did all that and then walked casually back into the bathroom (someone saw him walking back past those windows), picked/hauled her up, and took her downstairs. Never a rush.

(Wouldn't that account for the "missing" 5 minutes) - if I'm not dreaming that some amount of time was missing...

 

[ColonelMustard]

Here's an example of a psych evaluation done at Weskoppies last year for a man charged with murder. The trial was held at the same court as OP and the accused was being evaluated as to whether he was fit to stand trial and criminally responsible for his actions.

http://www.jacarandafm.com/post/modimolle-monster-full-psychological-report/

Here's the actual testing instrument (i.e., questions):

Millon Clinical Multiaxial Inventory III

http://truthsilo.com/stds/MCMI-III.txt

 

[JudgeJudi]

<Respectfully snipped>

Thanks to From Germany

The six articles he recommended on Sally Davies's blog are definitely well worth a read.

I agree. It's an extremely interesting blog by a clinical psychologist that covers abusive relationships and OP and Reeva's relationship in particular. If the psychology aspect interests you, I highly recommend it.

Part 2 – Violent intimate relationships often involve early intensity, and jealousy makes them unsafe and unstable

Part 3 – How abusive partners treat their partner as their own personal property with no right to make their own choices unless the perpetrator of abuse gives permission

Part 4 – Controlling behaviour

Part 5 – Unrealistic expectations, the gradual isolation of the abusive relationship, and the effects of emotional instability

Part 6 – Social inequality, rigid assumptions about gender, and how violence is more likely when perpetrators don’t believe they will be held accountable

The following link makes it easy to access all parts.

http://sallydavies.co.za/category/blog/

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Millon Clinical Multiaxial Inventory III

http://truthsilo.com/stds/MCMI-III.txt

Very interesting, thank you!
I would enjoy it, to answer the questions, but the analysis I don't want to know. :smile:

 

[Karmady]

The first paragraph of the attached article talks about OP's jealousy and controlling issues.

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20678557,00.html

The article is in People magazine, it refers to Reeva as a "supermodel" and neglects to reflect on the fact that they were dating a couple of months, not a couple of years. I think even the most outrageous psycho, putting aside serial killers, usually need a little bit more time to work themselves up to murder -- even if they're otherwise prone to shouting a lot and not liking it when other men leer at their date. On the other hand, the whole point of FMH magazine is leering, so he should have expected it.

jmo

 

[JudgeJudi]

The following link provides a lot of useful information on personality disorders. Scroll down a little to see the characteristics of Cluster A, B and C disorders.

Further down is Millon’s brief description of personality disorders, and further down again for level of severity (0 – 4) together with whether it meets the criteria for the disorder.

Looking at this, it seems OP would have many of the characteristics for Cluster B disorders, i.e. Antisocial, Borderline, Histrionic and Narcisstic. He also displays some symptoms for other disorders as well, in particular paranoid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_Disorder#Millon.27s_description

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Hello, all! Jumping in with a few questions/comments, myself:

1. ( I were Masipa, the first thing I would want to do it take a field trip to his house and get a 1st-hand idea of the space in which this all happened. A to-scale toilet area isn't enough. If I were Masipa, would I have the option of going there?
[I]Yes, that would help judging.[/I]
2. The women "judge" sitting to Masipa's left asked two questions together at one point, although I don't know to whom they were addressed.
---->A. Did Reeva know how to use the alarm? ( response was yes)
---->B. Was the light in the toilet working that night. (response was no)

3. Reeva eating downstairs: I always figured she went down there alone. He came down and started/continued the fight.
Yes, I could imagine also.
4. I may be missing something but you can't actually permanently delete ipad browsing histories. You maybe can on the ipad, itself, but the URLs and times are logged by the ISPs as they link to IP addresses. Law enforcement (and/or the NSA...even in South Africa, no doubt!) can get ahold of those just like they did the texts.
I don't have an idea in technically things.
5. The fight: OP strikes me as being as passive aggressive as he is immature. Of course, the two are linked

I think he was pissed about something having to do with her lunch (the day before?) with her old boyfriend, or some other weird thing related to a guy. To "get back" at her he surfed and wanted her to know it. (Maybe they did start looking together at cars and THEN he just switched to to really "get her back", as in "in your face, b#tch.")
Yes, I could imagine also.
Rather than deal with it she went downstairs? She ate (and of course it would probably be something like vegatables/cheese, and just a little bit ...she was a model, always trying to watch/lose weight. He even mentioned that).

OP liked it even LESS that she didn't take the bait so he followed her down a few minutes later and kept trying to push her buttons. Whether he finally did or she just got sick of his antics, she did start yelling at him. Then, whether she told him it was over or/ and that she was leaving - either way, it enraged him even more.
Yes, I could imagine also..
He's left standing there for a couple of seconds, then comes charging after her up the stairs (MY supplement: perhaps with the cricket bat?) screaming "GET THE **** OUT OF MY HOUSE" Terrified she locks? the bedroom door?
He starts bashing right through it.
As he's getting in, she's shouting louder an louder in panic.
Just as he making it in, she runs into the main bathroom area, shouting, screaming, pleading with with him to leave her alone.
Maybe he again says, "I TOLD YOU TO GET THE **** OUT OF MY HOUSE"
He walks over and gets his gun.
As she hears him entering the passageway coming after her, she throws open the window and shouts "help! help!
As he moves further down the passageway toward her, he mocks her, repeating... "help, help, help"
She says that if he gets any closer she'll call the police. As his hand with the gun first appears, she sees she that he has his gun and jumps into the toilet room, screaming.
He comes fully around the corner just as she's pulling the door shut, her eyes are directly on him.
In that split second, she sees him pointing the gun directly at her as he shouts, "LIKE HELL YOU"RE GOING TO CALL THE POLICE!!" (...and ruin my life).
She lets out a bloodcurdling scream just as she's turned the lock at the last second. (That's why she's standing right there.)
He fires the gun once, hears the magazine rack, moves over and shoots three more times.

========

On one level, I understand why it seems logical in his version that he would ask her to call the police. On the other hand, he mixes truth with fiction to cover his butt. I've could never figure out why someone who doesn't like or respect the police would be telling her to call them - until it occurred to me that he had to add that in case someone heard him shouting at her "LIKE HELL YOU"RE GOING TO CALL THE POLICE"

Do I have any guesses about how the bat fits into my scenario? No.
See above: my supplement
Do I have any idea whether he was on his legs or his stumps? No.
Before taking the gun: perhaps on stumps?
Does it fit the timeline? No.
I'm not able now to reconstruct this thoroughly.

I also have a suspicion that the fan (yes, only one fan - on the balcony) is also involved here somehow. As in, he drifted off after asking her to bring it in. She was still up and hadn't done it yet when he was arose fter only a few minutes dozing, and at some point used that as an excuse /another excuse to find fault with her/ yell at her.
Yes, I could imagine also..

Long post, but I was on a roll. If anyone has any answers to my questions further above, I'd appreciate your insights.

BBM - Yes, long post, but an other version of many, we have to think of. :smile:

 

[ColonelMustard]

Another question... "but before I go there (Nel)" let me "put it to you (Roux)" that the 6-part series "Fury in your words: Oscar, Reeva and Intimate Partner Violence mentioned above is brilliant. "Your voice is very low. (Masipa)" Sorry, M'lady, I said it's BRILLIANT!! Insightful... WELL-worth a read!!


A GREAT reference/source in the series above: Open letter to Henke Pistorius. Ben Trovato, &#8220;The Whipping Boy&#8221;, 12 March 2013. http://bentrovatowhippingboy.wordpress.com/2013/03/12/an-open-letter-to-henke-pistorius-father-to-oscar-defender-of-the-faithless/

Whoa, that Henke is really something else.

Here's my question: Was the .38 ammunition in the safe actually Oscar's or Henke's?

 

[4MrsB]

Hello, all! Jumping in with a few questions/comments, myself.... If anyone has any answers to my questions, I'd appreciate your insights.

Respectfully "snipped" for space....

Col.Mustard: some great insights & food for thought. Let me just throw in "my 2 cents" on a couple of the topics you've mentioned....

1. VIEWING THE HOME: Although she likely would be interested in viewing location, as it makes it that much easier to visualize details as laid out by both sides, I don't believe a judge would request that. She would be confident making a ruling based on 3+ mo of detailed testimony & exhibits and how the laws apply to those circumstances and actions, IMO.

3. REEVA DOWNSTAIRS: I can't help but think if the argument took place throughout the house, both downstairs & upstairs (which I believe it did) and lasted for an hour or possibly longer (which I also believe it did, i.e. - neighbor covering head with pillow to try and block out loud arguing) - then I can't help but believe OP had his prothesis on. He seemed to wear them, except when in bed, always. And even if he was in bed & argument erupted later, I think before going downstairs on slippery tiled steps and before continuing an argument wi Reeva, he would have taken 30sec & put them on. His ego & personality (whether argument stayed in bedroom or not) would not let him fight wi RS his tall, beautiful model girlfriend for an hour while running up and down stairs or around house on his stumps. Mentally he would feel at a disadvantage on his stumps, less control, etc - even though RS would not necessarily perceive it that way, but he himself would. IMO. When discussion turns to location of argument, I can't help but think he had prothesis on. I believe neighbors heard different portions of their argument based on where in the house OP & RS were at the time. The Stipps heard what they did because the open doors of the balcony faced their bedroom balcony and there wasn't another home in the way at the time. While the neighbor that heard the arguing earlier, approx 2am, may have been because they were in the kitchen or downstairs at the time. (I realize bullet holes lower & there's no validity to my belief that OP wearing prothesis. I believe there's an explanation for it...I just have absolutely no idea what it is. Haha. )

5. OP passive/aggressive & immature....yes & yes.
I don't have a clue what sparked their argument. Using info we now know about OP and what many people have come forward and shared about him over the years...it could have started over some insignificant issue and escalated from there. Below I've listed a couple of things I feel may have been in place that night:

A) OP was in a really foul mood. Sounds like his financial appt (? i may be wrong abt it being a financial appt) that morning went poorly. RS was texting him uplifting thoughts, cheering him up, etc. reminding him of all the "blessings" in his life he should focus on. OP & bad news, do not mix well for those around him.
B) RS made an attempt to get dressed so she could leave. Her bag and all it's items were so tidy & neat. This is not a person who would leave jeans on the floor with the pant legs partially turned inside out, and tossed on the floor between foot of bed & stereo & balcony. No way. She seemed liked she bent over backwards walking on eggshells during this relationship with OP. making sure he was happy, pleasing him, not confrontational, and very thoughtful. Based on this insight - no way would she throw her pants on the floor, half inside out. And the rest of her items folded neatly and placed all together on couch in her bag. I absolutely do not buy that. My guess is they got yanked out of her hand while she was getting them & telling OP she was going to leave.
C) As the argument escalates he yells the words he stated in court, but not at any intruder, at RS. Reason he broke down (for real) so badly in the courtroom - because he was reliving his out of control rant at Reeva, screaming at her to GET THE f#%! OUT OF MY HOUSE.... At this point, RS is now scared to death (even if no gun has entered the picture yet).

With regard to the cricket bat...I think the WS poster with the BAT-SHOOT-KICK theory is absolutely correct. Maybe 2 or 3 strikes to scare RS in bathroom earlier, but panel not all the way out, just damaged. But the 1st sounds heard had to have been OP striking something. Maybe one strike with bat was the broken tiles or metal plate near tub that was dented in. There are so many unaccounted for "strange" out of the norm issues that the defense & state just seem to gloss over....broken tiles, holes in bedroom door, Frank in house while argument happening & outside & dressed when everyone arriving. If he didn't hear anything, why was he up, outside & dressed before police get there? Just so weird that this fact is not touched on, . . . by anyone.

D) OP never considered for a second, that this "beloved hero & idol" of South Africa (as well as many other counties around the world) would simply not just walk away from this murder and be believed 100%, based on his explanation. Perhaps even comforted with sympathy for the traumatic event that unfolded and the pain & heartache he was going through as a result of his lost loved one.

...anyway, my "2 cents" on those couple of items.

 

[jay-jay]

Another question... "but before I go there (Nel)" let me "put it to you (Roux)" that the 6-part series "Fury in your words: Oscar, Reeva and Intimate Partner Violence mentioned above is brilliant. "Your voice is very low. (Masipa)" Sorry, M'lady, I said it's BRILLIANT!! Insightful... WELL-worth a read!!


A GREAT reference/source in the series above: Open letter to Henke Pistorius. Ben Trovato, “The Whipping Boy”, 12 March 2013. http://bentrovatowhippingboy.wordpress.com/2013/03/12/an-open-letter-to-henke-pistorius-father-to-oscar-defender-of-the-faithless/

Whoa, that Henke is really something else.

Here's my question: Was the .38 ammunition in the safe actually Oscar's or Henke's?

Excellent .. thanks for that!

 

[jay-jay]

Here's the actual testing instrument (i.e., questions):

Millon Clinical Multiaxial Inventory III

http://truthsilo.com/stds/MCMI-III.txt

He will probably think he will be able to 'play the system', too .. but he won't be able to, those types of tests are designed to pick up whether you have tried to do that.

 

[JudgeJudi]

He will probably think he will be able to 'play the system', too .. but he won't be able to, those types of tests are designed to pick up whether you have tried to do that.

It's possible he could play the system. His aunt, Micki Pistorius, is SA's most experienced criminal profiler. I think Uncle Arnold would pull every string and call up every favour he could to minimize the risk of OP getting a lengthy sentence.