Oscar Pistorius Defense

[homegirl]

Is it just me or is it suspicious that the toilet door panels where all ripped off the door to me they contain the bullet holes (evidence ) and black bags and rope was at the ready.... Hmmm seems to me like he intended to hide not only the body but the panels then without a crime reported a good clean up could be done.. I think he planned to do just that but was talked out of it or the good Dr turned up and prevented it....

It's not just you. I think there is something strange about those panels too. They do contain evidence, the kind OP perhaps tried to conceal, but maybe also evidence to the attempted concealment. How I would have loved to see that door reconstructed at the scene. I don't know what to make of the plastic bags, but i hope Clarice Stander testifies.

 

[shane13]

OP CANNOT REMEMBER......

*Turning the alarm off before he carried Reeva down the stairs.
*Telling Stipp that he had mistaken Reeva for an intruder.
*If he or the police first climbed up the stairs at the crime scene.
*Firing four shots.
*Having his finger on the trigger at Tasha's restaurant when he was
handling it.
*What happened to the ejected bullet/cartridge at the Tasha shooting incident.
*His Iphone code.
*Which friend he called for help after being shot at whilst he was driving.
*Speaking to security immediately after the shooting.
*Why he told Security everything was fine (after he was phoned back by them).
*The location of the duvet.
*When he turned the light on in the bathroom.
*Which switch his fan was plugged into.
*]The song they were listening from the Kendrick Lamar album whilst in the car ("***** don't kill my vibe).
*When his father put the ammunition in the safe.
*Much about the trip to Vaal he and Samantha drove down to meet friends (gun through sunroof incident).
*Where his firearm was when he was on the boat (incident above).
*If the firearm was 'one-up' while they were on the boat.

....there are much more I am sure. My apologies if anyone has posted these before.

Well re his Dad Henke, I've noted here that in his testimony, OP said he has not seen his father for years.

But Henke was at BH everyday and even reached out to touch his son once or twice.

So OP has either forgotten those events or who his father is?
Add to list please.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Just going back to this post again, as I found this bit while looking through the BS and the PE for shane's list .. it's actually from the BS ..

"I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom."

.. that does sound very much to me like he dragged her out by her feet, although that's not quite how he put it in his testimony in the stand, but that's very much what it sounds like in his BS.

that is v well spotted. certainly not the language you would use if you picked someone up.

not good to visualise though, unfortunately.

Tis not the language one would use when recalling the first responder type efforts to save the love of your life.

"I battled to get her" .... into the toilette is what he really meant.
Knock her phone out her hands, throw in a few "shoulder charges" and "door slams", lock the door and he has her effectively albeit temporarily contained, giving him "time to think" while he contemplates his next move.

 

[Really?]

Along with your good speculation, I have asked people to ponder the following.
Since we know that crime scene removal occurred for the .38 ammo and the 5th phone, what else might have been removed that has not been admitted to?

I have speculated that maybe another gun (for that ammo) was removed, and you can think on that. [Just specualtion.]

When things don't make sense, it could be because something was successfully removed that we do not know about. Just a possiiblity given that this case runs deep.

But you are right.
In addition to the possibility that OP may have been trying to remove Reeva's body when Stipp and Baba et al arrived, he may have been trying to remove other evidence--like parts of the door that had bullet holes in them. (Good thinking.)

Someone else here speculated (last week) that Ms Stander may have aided in removing the 5th phone. After all it does seem from her statement about protecting him, that that may be why OP called them first (if not only) given the 5th phone--that Roux in Court first raised in response at BH when WO Botha said OP did not call for ambulance. Curiously then at BH if Roux was saying that the 5th phone they told the world then was taken from the crime scene--why did they not immediately hand it to the Judge or Pros.?

No DT kept it for another 11 days or so we learned at trial (whose video has been excised from sllcourt videos), after claiming it would give aid to OP's claims.

As I wrote here before, if the call sequence is in doubt between Mr Baba vs OP/that call log, I will take Mr Baba any day of the week.

I did hear that live in court. Are you saying it can not be 're-heard'?

 

[shane13]

I did hear that live in court. Are you saying it can not be 're-heard'?

Are you asking about at BH, or at trial?

I've made clear for weeks now, that trial videos have excised the 16 day crime scene removal etc. stipulation of the 5th phone.

 

[sleuth-d-]

OP CANNOT REMEMBER......

*Turning the alarm off before he carried Reeva down the stairs.
*Telling Stipp that he had mistaken Reeva for an intruder.
*If he or the police first climbed up the stairs at the crime scene.
*Firing four shots.
*Having his finger on the trigger at Tasha's restaurant when he was
handling it.
*What happened to the ejected bullet/cartridge at the Tasha shooting incident.
*His Iphone code.
*Which friend he called for help after being shot at whilst he was driving.
*Speaking to security immediately after the shooting.
*Why he told Security everything was fine (after he was phoned back by them).
*The location of the duvet.
*When he turned the light on in the bathroom.
*Which switch his fan was plugged into.
*]The song they were listening from the Kendrick Lamar album whilst in the car ("***** don't kill my vibe).
*When his father put the ammunition in the safe.
*Much about the trip to Vaal he and Samantha drove down to meet friends (gun through sunroof incident).
*Where his firearm was when he was on the boat (incident above).
*If the firearm was 'one-up' while they were on the boat.

....there are much more I am sure. My apologies if anyone has posted these before.

* reeva's birthdate
* what year his house was painted
* speaking to the netcare operator [but remembers what they told him to do]
* carrying reeva until the second flight of stairs
* going to the pantry to get tape and bags and things [or whether ms stander went to get them]
...

 

[sleuth-d-]

Well re his Dad Henke, I've noted here that in his testimony, OP said he has not seen his father for years.

But Henke was at BH everyday and even reached out to touch his son once or twice.

So OP has either forgotten those events or who his father is?
Add to list please.

there was also a reference to two calls made to henke on the day of the 13th [reference made on here - i have no idea where these phone records are accessible]. which seems another coincidence, considering like you say op referred to not being in contact.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Are you asking about at BH, or at trial?

I've made clear for weeks now, that trial videos have excised the 16 day crime scene removal etc. stipulation of the 5th phone.

You are absolutely right about that Shane. I keep links to the videos and notes of the trial in an app called OneNote that date/time stamps pages automatically and for the date of Tuesday March 24,at 3:35 (which would be 9:30 SA time) I have the following hand written entry:

"2 iphones, 2 Blackberries, 2 ipads
On Feb 25 OP handed over his iphone5"

Only about 2 seconds remains of that portion of the video.
The judge is seen receiving a packet of papers and says "This is Exhibit 2?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AzYslyjzmY

 

[Forensics]

OP CANNOT REMEMBER....REVISED LIST..

*Turning the alarm off before he carried Reeva down the stairs.
*Telling Stipp that he had mistaken Reeva for an intruder.
*If he or the police first climbed up the stairs at the crime scene.
*Firing four shots.
*Having his finger on the trigger at Tasha's restaurant when he was
handling it.
*What happened to the ejected bullet/cartridge at the Tasha shooting incident.
*His Iphone code.
*Which friend he called for help after being shot at whilst he was driving.
*Speaking to security immediately after the shooting.
*Why he told Security everything was fine (after he was phoned back by them).
*The location of the duvet.
*When he turned the light on in the bathroom.
*Which switch his fan was plugged into.
*]The song they were listening from the Kendrick Lamar album whilst in the car ("***** don't kill my vibe).
*When his father put the ammunition in the safe.
*Much about the trip to Vaal he and Samantha drove down to meet friends (gun through sunroof incident).
*Where his firearm was when he was on the boat (incident above).
*If the firearm was 'one-up' while they were on the boat.
* When he last saw his father (Courtesy of Shane 13)
* reeva's birthdate (Courtesy of Sleuth-d-)
* what year his house was painted (Courtesy of Sleuth-d-)
* speaking to the netcare operator (but remembers what they told him to do) (Courtesy of Sleuth-d-)
* going to the pantry to get tape and bags and things [or whether ms stander went to get them (Courtesy of Sleuth-d-)



....there are much more I am sure. My apologies if anyone has posted these before.

 

[sorrell skye]

stipp made two calls to security, one that didn't get through followed by a dead call to 10111, and a second call to security after the bangs he heard. do you have times for both?

ms burger had a time of 3:16:xx and a call duration of 58 seconds for her call to security... and she heard the gunshots after this call.

placing the gunshots at 3:16:58+

[just saying ]

I'm going by logs of phone calls made to Silver Woods (OP's estate) security, as those are the logs that have been entered as evidence.

According to phone logs entered into evidence, Dr. Stipp successfully reached Silver Woods estate security (Baba) at 3:15:51 a.m. This call lasted for about 16 seconds. This call was made immediately after Dr. Stipp heard the 2nd set of 'bangs' that he ID'd as gunshots.

I refer to the link below, as it contains an accurate report, per court records, of when estate security received the phone call from Dr. Stipp, according to Moller's testimony based on phone logs.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/25/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-15-state-rests/

Since the timing of some of the witnesses phone calls varies according to their clocks, I've personally determined that the most accurate times for the purpose of nailing down a timeframe are those calls made to Silver Woods estate security, since these particular calls include a verifiable date/timestamp, as opposed to guessing based on what time an ear witness's clock was set to.

 

[crasshopper]

I don't know about #9, what Oscar was in the process of doing when Baba and Stipp arrived is open to specualtion. E.g.,it is possible with engine running he may have attempted to flee both for his future and to get rid of the body. Just specualtion but I'd remove #9.

Whose engine, STander's? I remember hearing about an engine running but can no longer find anything referring to this, has it been substantiated?

 

[sleuth-d-]

I'm going by logs of phone calls made to Silver Woods (OP's estate) security, as those are the logs that have been entered as evidence.

According to phone logs entered into evidence, Dr. Stipp successfully reached Silver Woods estate security (Baba) at 3:15:51 a.m. This call lasted for about 16 seconds. This call was made immediately after Dr. Stipp heard the 2nd set of 'bangs' that he ID'd as gunshots.

I refer to the link below, as it contains an accurate report, per court records, of when estate security received the phone call from Dr. Stipp, according to Moller's testimony based on phone logs.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/25/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-15-state-rests/

Since the timing of some of the witnesses phone calls varies according to their clocks, I've personally determined that the most accurate times for the purpose of nailing down a timeframe are those calls made to Silver Woods estate security, since these particular calls include a verifiable date/timestamp, as opposed to guessing based on what time an ear witness's clock was set to.

ok, thanks. i understand what you are saying.

 

[sorrell skye]

Whose engine, STander's? I remember hearing about an engine running but can no longer find anything referring to this, has it been substantiated?

The 'engine running' story was reported last year by one or more British tabloids, IIRC. I've followed this case from the beginning. I've not read anything that substantiates that rumor.

The rumor of someone's car engine running has not been entered into evidence. I think it's safe to say at this point that it was an unfounded rumor.

 

[homegirl]

I think the first two pics probably show the drag marks the best.

I think it's a good possibility that it was Reeva's hair dragging on the floor rather than her entire body. You can also see some smearing on the left side of the toilet bowl in pic #3, also likely from her hair as he lifted her head off the bowl.

It's gruesome to discuss, so my apologies in advance... but if he had just grabbed her feet and dragged her out, her head would have slammed on the floor. The blood pool next to the toilet is pretty much undisturbed. There would have been an awful lot of smearing if her head hit the ground like that and was then dragged out.

I tend to think that he just lifted her up an inch or two and her hair dragged along the ground as he moved her. There may have been some partial dragging of the lower limbs.

I could be totally wrong on that, just my interpretation.

Also, to address the question about whether or not her right arm was up on top of the toilet bowl... looking at the right side of the bowl, I see where some have pointed out that the edge is clean of blood. I tend to think that was just her upper body resting there. Picture her head and neck on the bowl with her right shoulder and very upper part of her right arm resting against that area, as the rest of her right arm dangles to the ground, causing the dripping of the blood in that area. That's how I see it.

Homegirl, if you are still playing around with your 3D program, any chance you can depict the body like I described it above? If not, no worries at all. I'm sure it's a lot of work to do that stuff. Thanks for those previous pics! I like having the visual.

I have the PT version saved, and have done the photoshop work on the final version. The first photo is my recreation of the final position. The legs are not really right. They wouldn't stay where I have it positioned them without muscle tone, but I do think that she came to rest on the magazine rack because of the undisturbed blood pool. I never know what to do with the left arm, but she would have had it shielding her head as she fell onto the bowl/ per Mangena, so I just kind of flop it down. i have the right arm hanging down on the left side of the bowl. Now that you have me thinking about it, my position might have her lower arm in the blood there on the left. I haven't seen a very clear photo of the blood on the left, but What I have seen looks undisturbed also.

I went back into the 3 #D program to try out your thoughts about position. The Pt version is much easier to work with, because it could have happened in the reality world. The second photo shows my attempt at posing the figure using your ideas. Again the legs are not right and I lifted the left arm out of the way so that the right one could be seen. You have to use some visualization to decide what her right arm would do at the break, but your guess is as good as mine as to her exact body position. Only OP knows and he's not telling.

 

[shane13]

You are absolutely right about that Shane. I keep links to the videos and notes of the trial in an app called OneNote that date/time stamps pages automatically and for the date of Tuesday March 24,at 3:35 (which would be 9:30 SA time) I have the following hand written entry:

"2 iphones, 2 Blackberries, 2 ipads
On Feb 25 OP handed over his iphone5"

Only about 2 seconds remains of that portion of the video.
The judge is seen receiving a packet of papers and says "This is Exhibit 2?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AzYslyjzmY

Your video is of Ms Stipp which is before what I am talking about on March 25.
Indeed the title of your video does not list the date--leaves out the month.

If there are times that you refer to on your video, please state.

But again that is not the correct date or video. Nel was well done with earwitnesses IIrC before he made that stipulation.

But best if you state the date of your video, becasue it is not on the YT proper.

ETA: And 16 days from Feb. 14 yields feb 30 for the handover--which has nothing to do with when the stipulation occurred at trial.

 

[crasshopper]

In the Defense scenario, OP fired the gunshots shortly after 3:00 a.m.

In this scenario, I agree that it would not be at all likely that Reeva would have still been barely alive as OP carried her down the stairs.

RBSM

IMO, OP shooting Reeva at about 3:15:51 is supported by Col. van der Nest's testimony regarding blood spatter analysis and arterial spurts on the stairway walls and the sofa in the downstairs lounge.

OP's claim that he sat with Reeva for 5 minutes is very difficult for me to believe. IMO, it's not plausible that in an emergency situation anyone would sit with a gravely wounded loved one for 5 minutes before seeking medical assistance. As I stated above, I think he said this in an effort to whittle away at the DT's timeframe in which they claim the gunshots occurred close to 3:00 a.m.

The DT's claim that OP shot Reeva close to/shortly after 3:00 a.m. - the time of the first set of 'bangs' - is not supported, IMO, by forensic evidence. The blood spatter evidence of arterial spurts on the stairway walls and downstairs lounge sofa do not illustrate a scenario in which Reeva was shot & gravely wounded 15-20 minutes prior to OP carrying her downstairs.

I think it's logical to conclude that OP shot Reeva moments before Dr. Stipp called estate security at 3:15:51.

RBSM

ms burger had a time of 3:16:xx and a call duration of 58 seconds for her call to security... and she heard the gunshots after this call.

placing the gunshots at 3:16:58+

[just saying ]

Great points, I agree with you both completely.

I really hope and do believe Nel will tie it up and serve it to the defense team on a silver platter.

 

[shane13]

The 'engine running' story was reported last year by one or more British tabloids, IIRC. I've followed this case from the beginning. I've not read anything that substantiates that rumor.

The rumor of someone's car engine running has not been entered into evidence. I think it's safe to say at this point that it was an unfounded rumor.

I tend to agree with this. And if IIRC it was the Daily Star in UK that published this.
I had dismissed it too.

But I thought I heard Baba or someone mention this at trial? About a car with engine running.
This is why I cited it above.

 

[Murphys_Law]

While reviewing Cpt Mangena direct testimony I came across a shocking statement by Nel. He is an extremely intelligent man, with a supreme command of the English language thus I cannot accept that it was a mistake, or slip of the tongue.

Context: Paragraph 18 of Cpt Magenas report contains ALL of his opinions and conclusions. Nel is prompting Mangena to reveal his findings only as it relates to subparagraph 18.1 of the this report section.

Nel: In paragraph 18 we deal with all of the opinions and conclusions that you have drawn from everything you have had to look at.

Mangena: That's right my Lady.

Nel: And your opinion in paragraph 18.1 was what?

Mangena: My Lady, in paragraph 18.1 my opinion was that there were 4 shots fired and all four bullets perforated the toilette door into the toilette cubicle.

Nel: And one hit someone.

If Nel, as I believe, says what he means, and means what he says, then that opens up a whole new set of possibilities

lease:

Please listen to the first 2 minutes ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A31z0aNCNHs




Please tell me this is NOT what said.

 

[shane13]

Whose engine, STander's? I remember hearing about an engine running but can no longer find anything referring to this, has it been substantiated?

See above.
I'd have to listen to all of Baba's testimony again, which I am loathe to do now anyway.,
Or to read all of a transcript--but it's been said here that we do not have access to a good daily transcript.

 

[crasshopper]

OP CANNOT REMEMBER......

*Turning the alarm off before he carried Reeva down the stairs.
*Telling Stipp that he had mistaken Reeva for an intruder.
*If he or the police first climbed up the stairs at the crime scene.
*Firing four shots.
*Having his finger on the trigger at Tasha's restaurant when he was
handling it.
*What happened to the ejected bullet/cartridge at the Tasha shooting incident.
*His Iphone code.
*Which friend he called for help after being shot at whilst he was driving.
*Speaking to security immediately after the shooting.
*Why he told Security everything was fine (after he was phoned back by them).
*The location of the duvet.
*When he turned the light on in the bathroom.
*Which switch his fan was plugged into.
*]The song they were listening from the Kendrick Lamar album whilst in the car ("***** don't kill my vibe).
*When his father put the ammunition in the safe.
*Much about the trip to Vaal he and Samantha drove down to meet friends (gun through sunroof incident).
*Where his firearm was when he was on the boat (incident above).
*If the firearm was 'one-up' while they were on the boat.
*When he last saw his father (courtesy of Shane13)

....there are much more I am sure. My apologies if anyone has posted these before.

Lol, but I just wanted to add

*That the boating accident happened after sunset.