Oscar Pistorius Defense

[DebinGA]

i missed that little nugget. He actually seriously said he expected the 'intruder' to exit via the second floor toilet window?

What a chump.

And Nel said something like, "And what then? Fall two stories onto the ground below?" And OP calmly noted the ladders outside again. As country folk here might say, "That boy ain't right in the head."

 

[jay-jay]

And Nel said something like, "And what then? Fall two stories onto the ground below?" And OP calmly noted the ladders outside again.

Yes, that was it.

.. and OP didn't think anyone would notice the fact that (in his version) the ladders wouldn't have been outside the toilet window, they would've been outside the bathroom window. :facepalm:

 

[Cherwell]

And Nel said something like, "And what then? Fall two stories onto the ground below?" And OP calmly noted the ladders outside again. As country folk here might say, "That boy ain't right in the head."

Yes, the transcription of this bit was posted recently, but with the umpteen threads that have been created I've no idea where it is. I wish we could have the general discussion thread back.

 

[DebinGA]

I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom. I phoned Johan Stander ("Stander") who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. I phoned Netcare and asked for help. I went downstairs to open the front door.

[from the bail affidavit]

Read more: http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news...ial-affidavit-bail-hearing-full#ixzz30T3XGgFS

If there's a compilation of Netcare related info somewhere, I'd appreciate direction to it.

​

 

[DebinGA]

Yes, the transcription of this bit was posted recently, but with the umpteen threads that have been created I've no idea where it is. I wish we could have the general discussion thread back.

I bet we will before the trial resumes. You're right about someone somewhere recently posting the transcript of Nel quizzing OP re how he expected the intruder to obey his command to get out and OP firing the moment he thought the poor devil was complying.

 

[Giles]

Thinking about what defense-helpful witnesses Roux might call next and would appreciate hearing others' thoughts. I'm still shell-shocked that Roux followed OP with Roger Dixon. What defense case holes are remotely pluggable and still in dispute?

I think some of the neighbours who identified crying and a man's screams will be useful to the Defence. While several people all testified they heard a woman's screams, OP's next door neighbour, (and the only person who knew OP) identified the voice as OP. Surely, he will be key witness for the Defence.

A sound expert who shows OP can scream like a woman, or suggest that it's possible his voice could have been mistaken for a woman's by several witnesses.

Expert testimony that he was on his prostheses when he wielded the cricket bat.

A psychologist who can testify to his state of mind and his heightened fear (as someone disabled) 'imagining an intruder entering the house'.


Although Dixon's testimony may have been laughable at times, he highlighted a couple of ways in which the Stipp's testimony can help the Defence. Firstly, when Mr Stipp saw a bare chested man walking in the bathroom it is likely that OP was on his prosthesis - this was before the second set of noises and is very good for the Defense.

Secondly, Dixon showed that with the toilet door slightly ajar, there was a dim light through the toilet window. Mrs Stipp was adamant about seeing this. I'm sure the Defence will argue that a similar effect could be achieved with light emanating through the bullet holes in the door. And, if Reeva had been alive at that time (as the Prosecution suggest - with light emanating through cricket bat strikes), some sort of movement, or her silhouette would have been seen by Annette Stipp, who was on the balcony almost the entire time between the two sets of noises.

 

[patCee]

[from the bail affidavit]

Read more: http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news...ial-affidavit-bail-hearing-full#ixzz30T3XGgFS

If there's a compilation of Netcare related info somewhere, I'd appreciate direction to it.

​

I can't find a time when the paramedics arrived. Found this re Netcare response times though,

Response times[edit]

There are currently no official "response time" standards in the South African system. However, response times of fifteen minutes for high-acuity calls in urban areas are considered acceptable, and in rural areas, response times of up to forty minutes for similar calls are not uncommon.[20]

Emergency medical services in South Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

More info here from Netcare,

http://www.netcare911.co.za/live/content.php?Item_ID=6461

 

[Cherwell]

I think some of the neighbours who identified crying and a man's screams will be useful to the Defence. While several people all testified they heard a woman's screams, OP's next door neighbour, (and the only person who knew OP) identified the voice as OP. Surely, he will be key witness for the Defence.

Wasn't it Jacques van der Merwe? He lives across the road, not next door. And it was crying after the shots that he ID'd as OP, not screaming before.

A sound expert who shows OP can scream like a woman, or suggest that it's possible his voice could have been mistaken for a woman's by several witnesses.

I think that ship has sailed. They needed to demonstrate that to the ear witnesses.

Expert testimony that he was on his prostheses when he wielded the cricket bat.

Is that disputed? Personally I think he was wearing them throughout, and he shot from a crouching position.

A psychologist who can testify to his state of mind and his heightened fear (as someone disabled) 'imagining an intruder entering the house'.

I'm sure they'll try that, but his actions speak against it.

Although Dixon's testimony may have been laughable at times, he highlighted a couple of ways in which the Stipp's testimony can help the Defence. Firstly, when Mr Stipp saw a bare chested man walking in the bathroom it is likely that OP was on his prosthesis - this was before the second set of noises and is very good for the Defense.

I thought Dr Stipp said a pale-coloured figure, or words to that effect. IMBW but I took him to be indicating that it was a white person as opposed to a black person. Just descriptive.

Secondly, Dixon showed that with the toilet door slightly ajar, there was a dim light through the toilet window. Mrs Stipp was adamant about seeing this. I'm sure the Defence will argue that a similar effect could be achieved with light emanating through the bullet holes in the door. And, if Reeva had been alive at that time (as the Prosecution suggest - with light emanating through cricket bat strikes), some sort of movement, or her silhouette would have been seen by Annette Stipp, who was on the balcony almost the entire time between the two sets of noises.

Yes, he confirmed Mrs Stipp's testimony. I'm not convinced that she would have inevitably seen RS.

 

[DebinGA]

http://www.netcare911.co.za/live/content.php?Category_ID=1937

Digital voice recording of all telephone lines ensures an accurate audit of events and allows for pro-active quality assurance and clinical governance.

 

[DebinGA]

Dixon proved OP lied about finding Reeva sitting on the WC floor, not on the magazine rack. What possible innocent reason is there for OP misremembering that?

 

[Carmelita]

A sound expert who shows OP can scream like a woman, or suggest that it's possible his voice could have been mistaken for a woman's by several witnesses.


A psychologist who can testify to his state of mind and his heightened fear (as someone disabled) 'imagining an intruder entering the house'.

*Snipped by me to simplify it for my own mind*

I think that this is a case were it being a bench trial rather than a jury trial will be beneficial to the defense. It is not a hard stretch for me to imagine Oscar screaming like a woman after hearing his pitch get higher and higher when Nel was demanding that Oscar look at the picture of Reeva's head. I don't think it will be difficult for the judge and her assessors to draw the same reasonable conclusion.

I agree that Oscar's state of mind will come into the judges decision as will his disability.

 

[Carmelita]

i missed that little nugget. He actually seriously said he expected the 'intruder' to exit via the second floor toilet window?

What a chump.

He said it after Nel offered it as a possible scenario,

 

[JudgeJudi]

<Respectfully snipped>

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-bad-south-africas-image-1446629

Any doubt he'll leave SA asap if he avoids prison? The loss of public adulation must be excruciatingly painful for him. At least I hope it is and will remain so the rest of his life.

The superstar became a shooting star otherwise known as a falling star.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I think some of the neighbours who identified crying and a man's screams will be useful to the Defence. While several people all testified they heard a woman's screams, OP's next door neighbour, (and the only person who knew OP) identified the voice as OP. Surely, he will be key witness for the Defence.

A sound expert who shows OP can scream like a woman, or suggest that it's possible his voice could have been mistaken for a woman's by several witnesses.

Expert testimony that he was on his prostheses when he wielded the cricket bat.

A psychologist who can testify to his state of mind and his heightened fear (as someone disabled) 'imagining an intruder entering the house'.


Although Dixon's testimony may have been laughable at times, he highlighted a couple of ways in which the Stipp's testimony can help the Defence. Firstly, when Mr Stipp saw a bare chested man walking in the bathroom it is likely that OP was on his prosthesis - this was before the second set of noises and is very good for the Defense.

Secondly, Dixon showed that with the toilet door slightly ajar, there was a dim light through the toilet window. Mrs Stipp was adamant about seeing this. I'm sure the Defence will argue that a similar effect could be achieved with light emanating through the bullet holes in the door. And, if Reeva had been alive at that time (as the Prosecution suggest - with light emanating through cricket bat strikes), some sort of movement, or her silhouette would have been seen by Annette Stipp, who was on the balcony almost the entire time between the two sets of noises.

Surely no sound recordings are permissible. Recordings can be adjusted to make a man sound like a woman and vice versa by altering the pitch. It would have to be a live demonstration to mean anything at all. I feel the same way about pre recorded gun/bat sounds and I am sure Dixon alluded to this possibility of the recordings being altered when he was in the dock talking about them but I would have to listen to his testimony again to be sure.

 

[Carmelita]

Oscar never told the intruder that he (Oscar) had a gun. He never said: "Stay where you are or I'll shoot." Nope. Oscar screamed at the intruder to get out of the house. He literally told the intruder to get out. How could the sound of the toilet door opening be perceived as an act of aggression by the intruder?

Edit: I meant to ask: How could Oscar not tell someone he had a gun, tell that someone to get out and then think the opening door is an act of aggression?

How can an intruder already in your home, entering further into your home be seen as anything other than an act of aggression?

I can't answer for Oscar as to why he would not tell an intruder that he had a gun trained on the door. Again I have never stated that I believe that Oscar behaved reasonably. Perhaps I should make that my signature.

 

[patCee]

*Snipped by me to simplify it for my own mind*

I think that this is a case were it being a bench trial rather than a jury trial will be beneficial to the defense. It is not a hard stretch for me to imagine Oscar screaming like a woman after hearing his pitch get higher and higher when Nel was demanding that Oscar look at the picture of Reeva's head. I don't think it will be difficult for the judge and her assessors to draw the same reasonable conclusion.

I agree that Oscar's state of mind will come into the judges decision as will his disability.

Have you seen this Carmelita, I posted it on an earlier thread.

Quote:
It is worth noting that our law is only prepared to take account of the immediate external circumstances of an accused &#8211; and to hypothetically place the reasonable person in these circumstances. Our law has steadfastly refused to take account of any subjective factors peculiar to an accused, including any disability that the accused suffers with. This has been controversial, but it has been a line from which our courts have not wavered. If the reasonable person would not have made the mistake Pistorius claims to have made, even if the court accepts that Pistorius made this mistake, he may be convicted of culpable homicide.
http://criminallawza.net/2014/03/03/...orius-defence/

ETA The site has been updated so try this http://criminallawza.net/2014/03/03/the-pistorius-defence/#comments

OR...on the site type in The (Original) Pistorius Defence

 

[Viper]

I can't find a time when the paramedics arrived. Found this re Netcare response times though,

Response times[edit]


Emergency medical services in South Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

More info here from Netcare,

http://www.netcare911.co.za/live/content.php?Item_ID=6461

Just an FYI about the availability of an ambulance. OPs Fortress Community is surrounded by other older Fortress Communities. That part of the city is inhabited by thousands of wealthy people and it included the infrastructure to support their needs. There is a hospital approximately 6 kilometers, or 3.5 miles, down the road. That is a fairly short drive for an ambulance in the dead of night, perhaps 4-5 minutes.

 

[patCee]

Just an FYI about the availability of an ambulance. OPs Fortress Community is surrounded by other older Fortress Communities. That part of the city is inhabited by thousands of wealthy people and it included the infrastructure to support their needs. There is a hospital approximately 6 kilometers, or 3.5 miles, down the road. That is a fairly short drive for an ambulance in the dead of night, perhaps 4-5 minutes.

Thanks Viper, so bearing in mind RS injuries, there was no reason for OP, or the emergency services to be concerned about the time an ambulance would take to reach them.

 

[BritsKate]

How can an intruder already in your home, entering further into your home be seen as anything other than an act of aggression?

I can't answer for Oscar as to why he would not tell an intruder that he had a gun trained on the door. Again I have never stated that I believe that Oscar behaved reasonably. Perhaps I should make that my signature.

I believe liesbeth's point (though I don't mean to speak for her) is that the intruder may have been opening the door to get out of Oscar's house. Further, I'd add that 'wood moving' could have been a theoretical intruder clambering out of an open toilet window. The important point for both of us is that Oscar opened fire after screaming at the intruder to get out but leaving no time or ability for the intruder to actually do so.

And this brings us right back to a putative self-defence claim being nullified if one kills an intruder who is attempting to, or in the midst of, fleeing.

 

[Giles]

Wasn't it Jacques van der Merwe? He lives across the road, not next door. And it was crying after the shots that he ID'd as OP, not screaming before.

I think that ship has sailed. They needed to demonstrate that to the ear witnesses.

Is that disputed? Personally I think he was wearing them throughout, and he shot from a crouching position.

I'm sure they'll try that, but his actions speak against it.

I thought Dr Stipp said a pale-coloured figure, or words to that effect. IMBW but I took him to be indicating that it was a white person as opposed to a black person. Just descriptive.

Yes, he confirmed Mrs Stipp's testimony. I'm not convinced that she would have inevitably seen RS.

Thanks for your comments:

BB1 - I was referring to OP's direct neighbors, Mr & Mrs Nhlengethwa (house to the left of OP) who didn't hear a woman screaming and Mr Nhlengethwa heard a man crying and to Mr Motshwani (to the right), who heard crying, not a woman screaming.

BB2 - I totally agree. The Defence should have played any recordings of OP screaming to the relevant witnesses. Any evidence presented in this regard is hugely compromised by not doing this.

BB3 - Yes, this is in dispute. The Prosecution say that OP was on his stumps when he wielded the cricket bat (Vermuelen's testimony). While both the Prosecution and Defence agree that he was on his stumps when he fired the gun.