Oscar Pistorius Defense

[Carmelita]

Have elite athletes had a meltdown after defeat? Perhaps. It's called disappointment.

Have elite athletes had a meltdown while 'in the zone'? No. They are focused and have supreme mind control.

Attempting to twist it around and use the fact that he is an accomplished athlete who has competed at the absolute highest level as a defense is absurd. MOO

I do not equate a man either in a rage or fear for his life being in the same zone as an athlete who is in the peak of a competition or in the "zone". There will be some of the same synapses popping but in the peak of competition you fall back on your training, your hard work, the known, you are automatically doing what you have done a thousand times before, pushing yourself to do better than you have been before but it is familiar. That is why it is called "the zone".

Not so much when you are in fear of losing your life or in the pursuit of your prey, unless we are now to believe that Oscar is a serial killer and this was just another hunt.

 

[homegirl]

I usually read this forum on my mobile phone, I am right now, so some images and graphics are hard for me to see very well. I'm sorry but I missed your earlier post too. Oh wait, I do recall seeing it. You and Lisa were discussing it as a work in progress. I'll look for it again later when I get home.

With the Internet connection going in and out many times during this trial I missed OP saying that Reeva's arm was over the toilet. I'm not sure why he needs to lie about that. Her right arm was clinging to her body by just some small amount of tissue, her humerus was completely fractured, and a major artery (brachial) was completely severed. All of that was above her elbow. So I suppose it is possible for her hand and lower arm to be resting under her head, but that is not what Magena described exactly. He felt that her whole body just went immediately limp after the shot to her brain and all of her crashed downwards. So maybe there is some ballistics related reason yet to come as to why OP would lie about Reeva's arm being on the toilet. Wish this trial was over!!!

BBM me either. I just can't crawl that far into OP's mind.I finished the prosecution sequence. I'll post it here as a contrast to the defense version. I based it on Mangena's testimony. I think he got about as close as you can get to what happened without seeing poor Reeva's body in the WC.

First photo:
Blue figure: RS standing facing the door. She is hit in the hip with bullet A. She is screaming.

Red figure : RS falling back onto the magazine rack. She is still screaming.

Green figure: RS falling to the right during the missed shot. She is hunched over in pain, trying to cover her head. She is still screaming.


Second photo:
Blue figure: RS continues to fall to the right and forward, twisting her torso as she falls. She is hit in the right arm with either bullet C or D. Her arm is nearly amputated and it drops, useless, to the left of the toilet. She is still screaming.

Red figure: She still has use of her left arm and is still trying to protect her head. She is shot through her fingers and in the head with either bullet C or D. She stops screaming.

Green figure: She falls, mortally wounded, onto the toilet.


Third photo:
Green figure: IMO, RS likely came to rest, with her lower body atop the magazine rack/ per Mangena, and her head hanging into the toilet in some manner.

Grey figure: This is a guess as to where OP stood in the WC. There are no footprints in the blood pool and Reeva's legs would be somewhere around where I put them. There is not many places that he could have been without stepping in the blood.

Op made that really weird statement about putting his left hand under her right arm to feel for a pulse. He may have done just that, after sliding it under her left arm to pick her up to drag her out. As has been said, he had tremendous upper body strength. It might have been a struggle, but I think that he could lift her from that position.


I could create a perfectly smooth and realistic animation using these still poses, right from the standing position to the final one. All I had to do was to find a standing location close enough to the mag rack to have have the figure fall back onto it. From there I simply rotated the figure on the z axis, making slight changes to the twist of the body, and changing the positions of the extremities.

 

[shane13]

I must confess that Oscar-Speak does my head in. I like to think that I'm fairly logical, and I also have a silly tendency to believe what people say. Over the years, I've learnt, usually to my detriment, that many people lie!!??

So, when I listen to OP's Oscar-speak on the stand, my thinking goes into a weird spasm. This is particularly the case when what he's describing is illogical (ie most of the time), and also when he blatantly contradicts himself saying that he didn't say something that he had said earlier in his testimony.

Part of my brain says "that's not what he said earlier", and then the "wanting to believe" part of my brain says "maybe I misheard him". When other Websleuthers confirm that he did actually say two contradictory things, my brain says "why would he be so stupid to do that?" - ie it's illogical.

Shane, I'm very grateful that you've introduced the forum to Oscar-Speak and Oscar-World. I'm getting the hang of Oscar-Speak, but it still makes no sense -probably because it doesn't.

There are many points about which I've thought "Why doesn't Nel challenge OP on that?" However, a larger part of my brain says "If he did, we'd still be on page 1of OP's testimony and would have many more months of Oscar-Speak to listen to."

BIB: You are welcome.

Maybe what is shocking to you is that it is coming from someone on the witness stand? When you expect some more truth.

I personally think Oscar-Speak is spoken everywhere and I mean everywhere. (One subset of humans who speak it most of the time is politicians.)

It might be more productive to look for other examples of Oscar-Physics.
Another example is the bathroom window. Now Reeva in fleeing into the loo, and did not have time to do that. Likewise, there were no burglars.

So the window, just like the gun triggers was able to open (and close?) by itself.
More violation of Newton's first law--like the triggers.

Oscar-Physics. from Oscar-World. Communicated via Oscar-Speak.

Don't let it get to you, Bobbie.

 

[homegirl]

RBBM

All you do is go to the post you want to link to and click the number of the post in the top right corner. The post will open in a new tab all by it's lonesome. Copy the url address (I ctrl+A, then right click to copy). Then you can either paste it in your post like this:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Oscar Pistorius Defense


Or you can use the global hyperlink button to paste the url into (it looks like a world with a linked chain on the posting screen) and do something like this:

homegirl's awesome, amazing 3D reconstruction post


(You just type over the portion that's highlighted to rename it.)

Hope that helps!

Thanks a million BrisKate. That helps a whole lot. Since you are being so nice, could you mind explaining how to snip just a portion of a post? When I tried it, a mod had to fix a broken quote. I don't want to cause them the trouble. One more question; can you link to a post from a different thread?

 

[BritsKate]

I must confess that Oscar-Speak does my head in. I like to think that I'm fairly logical, and I also have a silly tendency to believe what people say. Over the years, I've learnt, usually to my detriment, that many people lie!!??

So, when I listen to OP's Oscar-speak on the stand, my thinking goes into a weird spasm. This is particularly the case when what he's describing is illogical (ie most of the time), and also when he blatantly contradicts himself saying that he didn't say something that he had said earlier in his testimony.

Part of my brain says "that's not what he said earlier", and then the "wanting to believe" part of my brain says "maybe I misheard him". When other Websleuthers confirm that he did actually say two contradictory things, my brain says "why would he be so stupid to do that?" - ie it's illogical.

Shane, I'm very grateful that you've introduced the forum to Oscar-Speak and Oscar-World. I'm getting the hang of Oscar-Speak, but it still makes no sense -probably because it doesn't.

There are many points about which I've thought "Why doesn't Nel challenge OP on that?" However, a larger part of my brain says "If he did, we'd still be on page 1of OP's testimony and would have many more months of Oscar-Speak to listen to."

RBBM
This is what's known as gaslighting. It's actually a pretty common form of psychological abuse. Fortunately, we all have one another to keep us knowing what we believe we heard we really did hear but imagine being in a relationship or family with someone who consistently makes you doubt your own reality and perceptions.

(Denial, minimalisation, scape-goating and blame-shifting are also very common tools used to manipulate - we've seen examples of each of those too.)

MOO

 

[Murphys_Law]

BBM me either. I just can't crawl that far into OP's mind.I finished the prosecution sequence. I'll post it here as a contrast to the defense version. I based it on Mangena's testimony. I think he got about as close as you can get to what happened without seeing poor Reeva's body in the WC.

First photo:
Blue figure: RS standing facing the door. She is hit in the hip with bullet A. She is screaming.

Red figure : RS falling back onto the magazine rack. She is still screaming.

Green figure: RS falling to the right during the missed shot. She is hunched over in pain, trying to cover her head. She is still screaming.


Second photo:
Blue figure: RS continues to fall to the right and forward, twisting her torso as she falls. She is hit in the right arm with either bullet C or D. Her arm is nearly amputated and it drops, useless, to the left of the toilet. She is still screaming.

Red figure: She still has use of her left arm and is still trying to protect her head. She is shot through her fingers and in the head with either bullet C or D. She stops screaming.

Green figure: She falls, mortally wounded, onto the toilet.


Third photo:
Green figure: IMO, RS likely came to rest, with her lower body atop the magazine rack/ per Mangena, and her head hanging into the toilet in some manner.

Grey figure: This is a guess as to where OP stood in the WC. There are no footprints in the blood pool and Reeva's legs would be somewhere around where I put them. There is not many places that he could have been without stepping in the blood.

Op made that really weird statement about putting his left hand under her right arm to feel for a pulse. He may have done just that, after sliding it under her left arm to pick her up to drag her out. As has been said, he had tremendous upper body strength. It might have been a struggle, but I think that he could lift her from that position.


I could create a perfectly smooth and realistic animation using these still poses, right from the standing position to the final one. All I had to do was to find a standing location close enough to the mag rack to have have the figure fall back onto it. From there I simply rotated the figure on the z axis, making slight changes to the twist of the body, and changing the positions of the extremities.

View attachment 43209

View attachment 43210

View attachment 43211

Amazing work HomeGirl! Very convincing.

 

[Cymbaline]

Does anyone remember what day it was when OP explained to Nel why the toilet seat was smeared with blood? I remember it was really odd because he wasn't asked directly about it. He just added it on to an answer he was giving.

I've been wondering if the toilet seat was "up" at the time of the shooting and he put it down into that position and smeared the blood like that.

The blood smears seem so unnatural and having the toilet seat in the wrong position would be very problematic for his defense.

 

[BritsKate]

Thanks a million BrisKate. That helps a whole lot. Since you are being so nice, could you mind explaining how to snip just a portion of a post? When I tried it, a mod had to fix a broken quote. I don't want to cause them the trouble. One more question; can you link to a post from a different thread?

No worries. When you quote a post, you'll see the quoted portion begins [quote = user name, reference number] and ends with [/quote]. Make sure you leave the end quotes and their brackets as are - altering those is how quotes get broken. Simply delete any of the text you need to snip in the post you're quoting and make sure you add to your post, below the quoted portion, that you've snipped the original. RSBM (respectfully snipped by me), SBM (snipped by me) or snipped are what the mods generally prefer.

And yes, you can link to pretty much anything using that method. If, after posting, your link shows up like this: www.web******** it means that site isn't allowed here. Then you can either alert your post to have a mod help out (triangle in top right corner) or delete your post if you prefer.

 

[shane13]

BBM me either. I just can't crawl that far into OP's mind.I finished the prosecution sequence. I'll post it here as a contrast to the defense version. I based it on Mangena's testimony. I think he got about as close as you can get to what happened without seeing poor Reeva's body in the WC.

First photo:
Blue figure: RS standing facing the door. She is hit in the hip with bullet A. She is screaming.

Red figure : RS falling back onto the magazine rack. She is still screaming.

Green figure: RS falling to the right during the missed shot. She is hunched over in pain, trying to cover her head. She is still screaming.


Second photo:
Blue figure: RS continues to fall to the right and forward, twisting her torso as she falls. She is hit in the right arm with either bullet C or D. Her arm is nearly amputated and it drops, useless, to the left of the toilet. She is still screaming.

Red figure: She still has use of her left arm and is still trying to protect her head. She is shot through her fingers and in the head with either bullet C or D. She stops screaming.

Green figure: She falls, mortally wounded, onto the toilet.


Third photo:
Green figure: IMO, RS likely came to rest, with her lower body atop the magazine rack/ per Mangena, and her head hanging into the toilet in some manner.

Grey figure: This is a guess as to where OP stood in the WC. There are no footprints in the blood pool and Reeva's legs would be somewhere around where I put them. There is not many places that he could have been without stepping in the blood.

Op made that really weird statement about putting his left hand under her right arm to feel for a pulse. He may have done just that, after sliding it under her left arm to pick her up to drag her out. As has been said, he had tremendous upper body strength. It might have been a struggle, but I think that he could lift her from that position.


I could create a perfectly smooth and realistic animation using these still poses, right from the standing position to the final one. All I had to do was to find a standing location close enough to the mag rack to have have the figure fall back onto it. From there I simply rotated the figure on the z axis, making slight changes to the twist of the body, and changing the positions of the extremities.

View attachment 43209

View attachment 43210

View attachment 43211

BBM
Thank you, homegirl.

I thought Pros winesses were firm re OP did not go into the loo (step in blood etc.) Implying he dragged her out by her feet.

Re what OP said about placing his hand under Reeva:

In my deciphering of Oscar-Speak, I can tell you that I believe many of the things he says are true. Just not at the time he says they occurred...

 

[homegirl]

No worries. When you quote a post, you'll see the quoted portion begins [quote = user name, reference number] and ends with

. Make sure you leave the end quotes and their brackets as are - altering those is how quotes get broken. Simply delete any of the text you need to snip in the post you're quoting and make sure you add to your post, below the quoted portion, that you've snipped the original. RSBM (respectfully snipped by me), SBM (snipped by me) or snipped are what the mods generally prefer.

And yes, you can link to pretty much anything using that method. If, after posting, your link shows up like this: www.web******** it means that site isn't allowed here. Then you can either alert your post to have a mod help out (triangle in top right corner) or delete your post if you prefer.[/QUOTE]

Thanks again. It's been so frustrating to be new to posting and not to know how to do things. Now I feel happy. :blowkiss:

 

[shane13]

Does anyone remember what day it was when OP explained to Nel why the toilet seat was smeared with blood? I remember it was really odd because he wasn't asked directly about it. He just added it on to an answer he was giving.

I've been wondering if the toilet seat was "up" at the time of the shooting and he put it down into that position and smeared the blood like that.

The blood smears seem so unnatural and having the toilet seat in the wrong position would be very problematic for his defense.

Well you have well noted the strangeness of Oscar-Speak.
But I will to try to get to the blood matters.

A few things to consider. GRAPHIC: There prob. is brain matter involved.
I also think Pros witness described Reeva's hair and an object in her hair (bun holder?) doing things.

 

[Viper]

BBM me either. I just can't crawl that far into OP's mind.I finished the prosecution sequence. I'll post it here as a contrast to the defense version. I based it on Mangena's testimony. I think he got about as close as you can get to what happened without seeing poor Reeva's body in the WC.

First photo:
Blue figure: RS standing facing the door. She is hit in the hip with bullet A. She is screaming.

Red figure : RS falling back onto the magazine rack. She is still screaming.

Green figure: RS falling to the right during the missed shot. She is hunched over in pain, trying to cover her head. She is still screaming.


Second photo:
Blue figure: RS continues to fall to the right and forward, twisting her torso as she falls. She is hit in the right arm with either bullet C or D. Her arm is nearly amputated and it drops, useless, to the left of the toilet. She is still screaming.

Red figure: She still has use of her left arm and is still trying to protect her head. She is shot through her fingers and in the head with either bullet C or D. She stops screaming.

Green figure: She falls, mortally wounded, onto the toilet.


Third photo:
Green figure: IMO, RS likely came to rest, with her lower body atop the magazine rack/ per Mangena, and her head hanging into the toilet in some manner.

Grey figure: This is a guess as to where OP stood in the WC. There are no footprints in the blood pool and Reeva's legs would be somewhere around where I put them. There is not many places that he could have been without stepping in the blood.

Op made that really weird statement about putting his left hand under her right arm to feel for a pulse. He may have done just that, after sliding it under her left arm to pick her up to drag her out. As has been said, he had tremendous upper body strength. It might have been a struggle, but I think that he could lift her from that position.


I could create a perfectly smooth and realistic animation using these still poses, right from the standing position to the final one. All I had to do was to find a standing location close enough to the mag rack to have have the figure fall back onto it. From there I simply rotated the figure on the z axis, making slight changes to the twist of the body, and changing the positions of the extremities.

View attachment 43209

View attachment 43210

View attachment 43211

:goodpost:

Very nice work with the graphics! Thank you!

One thing I would like to point out, just my opinion and impression about why there are no foot prints in the blood that is seen in the bathroom. The one blood pool is all that was on the floor when OP went inside. It appears to me that he went in to get her out of the WC and simply avoided stepping in that blood pool. It also looks like he had her suspended off of the floor, for the most part, and dragged her hip or part of her bottom across the floor as he pulled her out and set her down; perhaps he set her down twice, I don't have the image to look at right now. But there really is no need for there to be any footprints in the blood stains because he was moving backwards and pulling Reeva's blood soaked body at the same time. So the blood was following him, he was walking on a clean floor as he moved backwards. I hope that makes sense.

Later when he tried to lift her from the bathroom floor, the blood all over him and his legs does point to him struggling to try to lift her weight and stand upright, IMO. And so he did get blood only on the top of his socks not on the bottom, all over his legs and all over his arms too, etc...

 

[homegirl]

BBM
Thank you, homegirl.

I thought Pros winesses were firm re OP did not go into the loo (step in blood etc.) Implying he dragged her out by her feet.

Re what OP said about placing his hand under Reeva:

In my deciphering of Oscar-Speak, I can tell you that I believe many of the things he says are true. Just not at the time he says they occurred...

Shane, I don't remember the PT saying that OP never went into the loo. There doesn't seem to be any sign that he stepped in the blood pool, and it doesn't appear to me that he could have dragged her out by the feet. That would have smeared the blood pool I would think. It seems to me that he pulled her toward him, turned her over, and dragged her out, kind of like he was doing a heimlich maneuver and that the drag marks were caused by one of her feet. The smearing on the toilet seat could have been caused by her head and /or hair sliding along it before he got her more or less upright. Just guessing though.

You are the originator of the Oscar speak concept and the master of it. I agree with your assessment. I don't your grasp on all of the nuances, but know it when I hear it.

 

[shane13]

Shane, I don't remember the PT saying that OP never went into the loo. There doesn't seem to be any sign that he stepped in the blood pool, and it doesn't appear to me that he could have dragged her out by the feet. That would have smeared the blood pool I would think. It seems to me that he pulled her toward him, turned her over, and dragged her out, kind of like he was doing a heimlich maneuver and that the drag marks were caused by one of her feet. The smearing on the toilet seat could have been caused by her head and /or hair sliding along it before he got her more or less upright. Just guessing though.

You are the originator of the Oscar speak concept and the master of it. I agree with your assessment. I don't your grasp on all of the nuances, but know it when I hear it.

Thank you.
Well maybe you have a far greater visual/sequential grasp than I do.

I/we await your video.

Just please make sure laws of motion and other physics are not violated. I've seen so much video animation that is bunk because they've been programmed [often in violation of laws of physics] to come out a certain way to deliberately disinform about crucial events.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Three lights on in the bedroom when Van Staden took his first set of photos in the bedroom.

 

[homegirl]

:goodpost:

Very nice work with the graphics! Thank you!

One thing I would like to point out, just my opinion and impression about why there are no foot prints in the blood that is seen in the bathroom. The one blood pool is all that was on the floor when OP went inside. It appears to me that he went in to get her out of the WC and simply avoided stepping in that blood pool. It also looks like he had her suspended off of the floor, for the most part, and dragged her hip or part of her bottom across the floor as he pulled her out and set her down; perhaps he set her down twice, I don't have the image to look at right now. But there really is no need for there to be any footprints in the blood stains because he was moving backwards and pulling Reeva's blood soaked body at the same time. So the blood was following him, he was walking on a clean floor as he moved backwards. I hope that makes sense.

Later when he tried to lift her from the bathroom floor, the blood all over him and his legs does point to him struggling to try to lift her weight and stand upright, IMO. And so he did get blood only on the top of his socks not on the bottom, all over his legs and all over his arms too, etc...

Thanks Viper. That makes perfect sense. It is just guesswork a to where OP stood in the WC. I placed him where I did because that would keep him out of the blood pool, at least that is what I tried to do. We can only guess what part of her body caused the drag marks.

I agree that he must have backed out of the WC. It does appear that he laid her down twice. So maybe he didn't have that good a grip on her, or maybe it is tiring to kill your girlfriend and drag her body off of a toilet.

 

[shane13]

Homegirl: {how do I get that smiley off?]

One thing that often gets left out of animations is Newton'a 3rd law. (About equal and opposite reactions.)

Re Reeva now, this can entail Reeva, to a certain extent, "bouncing" 'off the wall--if she slammed into it.

And also if her head slammed onto the toilet seat, by Newton's 3rd law her head would "bounce" up a bit and might come down elsewhere than where it initially struck the toilet.

Ultimately because there are many variables involved, this is where a BSA person or other forensics person would do actual experiments on "dummies."

I think though in this case, witnesses have testified doing very little of this--maybe due to funding (maybe not.)

JMO {Not a geologist.]

 

[Cymbaline]

Well you have well noted the strangeness of Oscar-Speak.
But I will to try to get to the blood matters.

A few things to consider. GRAPHIC: There prob. is brain matter involved.
I also think Pros witness described Reeva's hair and an object in her hair (bun holder?) doing things.

Here, look at this picture with me.

http://www.taylormarsh.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/pistorius2_NYDailyNews.jpg

It looks like the seat was "up" from a man being the last one to actually use that toilet at the time of the shooting and then the seat (not the lid) was perhaps put down afterwards and her wounded head placed on top of it.

The smears seem so staged.

JMO

 

[homegirl]

Thank you.
Well maybe you have a far greater visual/sequential grasp than I do.

I/we await your video.

Just please make sure laws of motion and other physics are not violated. I've seen so much video animation that is bunk because they've been programmed [often in violation of laws of physics] to come out a certain way to deliberately disinform about crucial events.

I haven't had much practice at using the animation part of my program. I might give it a try while the judge and accessors deliberate. I will have to study the manual some. I hate doing that. The posing is the hardest part though, and that is done.

Thanks also for the term Oscar physics. The defense version is certainly based on it.

PS In case noone has noticed, I am a poor typist. I hope you can read around it.

 

[shane13]

Here, look at this picture with me.

http://www.taylormarsh.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/pistorius2_NYDailyNews.jpg

It looks like the seat was "up" from a man being the last one to actually use that toilet at the time of the shooting and then the seat (not the lid) was perhaps put down afterwards and her wounded head placed on top of it.

The smears seem so staged.

JMO

Hadn't seen that one before.

Everything needs to be considered.
And BSA is more compicated and involved than it might appear to be. But certainly he did much "crime scene alteration" IMO prob. from the mo he stopped shooting.