Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #62 ~ the appeal~

[aftermath]

Before we leave this behind, I have something else to say on whether or not it was possible for screams to be heard.

I am sure those of you who think that it was impossible to hear screams from a distance should try to remember what Stander’s daughter said. She said she could hear a man shouting help, help, help. Did you know that Stander’s house is 220 metres from OP’s? That is around 40-50 metres further away than the Johnson’s and with the wind blowing in the wrong direction she still heard shouts. Quite interesting don’t you think? If the PT had employed an acoustics specialist he would have proved without any doubt that those witnesses who heard screams were telling the truth. The PT not calling one was one of the biggest mistakes in the trial. If shouts were heard by Clarice, which was never questioned or doubted at any stage in the trial, one must accept it would have been possible to hear screams from a nearer (by 40-50 metres) position and with the wind in a more favourable direction. Also it must remembered that the Johnsons heard the help, help, help too. For me this shows just how ‘off the ball’ the PT team was. A good acoustics engineer would have been able to completely refute the DT Sound Engineer’s testimony or perhaps it would be better to say would have introduced the evidence that hearing the screams would have been possible. If a shout could be heard from 220 metres away, a scream would definitely have been heard at 170 metres and if screams were heard (as I think they were), OP would have been found guilty of DE without a doubt.

Remember too that at some stage Mrs Stipp clearly stated it sounded as though the screams were coming closer. I think that suggests Reeva was screaming as she came down the passage way towards the bathroom and when she was in the bathroom before entering the toilet cubicle. Sadly this is now "water under the bridge".

I think the PT failed because they thought they had a watertight case and didn't follow up every clue.

[video=youtube;2cW8gWbXjCQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cW8gWbXjCQ[/video]
@ 1.33.58

I don't think anyone is saying that the witnesses didn't hear any screams. It's who they heard screaming where the dispute lies. *
Couldn't the sound of screams getting nearer equally be explained as pistorius moving from the bedroom to the bathroom, on realising the dreadful error he had probably just made?

ETA * and where the screams were coming from

 

[Trotterly]

.....and the telephone .....which went missing for pleasure, all on it's own......even wiped it's contents off on the way .....................coo coo..

I haven't paid any attention to the phone. What about the bag though, do you think Aimee must have taken it for nefarious reasons given that she still (presumably) thinks OP is innocent?

 

[Colin de France]

I haven't paid any attention to the phone. What about the bag though, do you think Aimee must have taken it for nefarious reasons given that she still (presumably) thinks OP is innocent?

.......i think she was told what to do ...........................

 

[cottonweaver]

from Lisa Salinger on =Masipa ruling re Saayman

i know that other posters on WS admire her reportage and respect her work, so for their benefit:

"My two cents, how in the world can she make this ruling? Trials are public affairs. The public has a right to this information. I agree and support the suppression of images, out of respect and dignity for the deceased and their family. But ALL testimony in a trial is extremely important. It tells the whole story and lends transparency to the verdict that will ultimately be decided. The courts should not and cannot pick and choose what the public gets to hear. I adamantly disagree with this decision. Now we have news outlets from all over the world summarizing in their own words what they heard, and there will no doubt be inaccurate reporting."

 

[cottonweaver]

.....and the telephone .....which went missing for pleasure, all on it's own......even wiped it's contents off on the way .....................coo coo..

yes, aka evidence tampering by anyone's book. Much bigger deal than the bag & I think Lithgow will be now satisfied that the bag question is now well and truly "covered"...

 

[Colin de France]

I haven't paid any attention to the phone. What about the bag though, do you think Aimee must have taken it for nefarious reasons given that she still (presumably) thinks OP is innocent?

.....................can you give me a another viable reason how the telephone got to his brother if it wasn't the arke angel herself ....?

 

[Trotterly]

.......i think she was told what to do ............................can you give me a another viable reason how the telephone got to his brother if it wasn't the arke angel herself ....?

I'm going to have to look back over this because I don't remember what was said about the telephone. Wasn't it a claim made in a book?

 

[Interested Bystander]

I don't think anyone is saying that the witnesses didn't hear any screams. It's who they heard screaming where the dispute lies. *
Couldn't the sound of screams getting nearer equally be explained as pistorius moving from the bedroom to the bathroom, on realising the dreadful error he had probably just made?

ETA * and where the screams were coming from

BIB

Maybe you feel that is the opinion of posters on WS but Judge Masipa firmly ruled out all of the Burger and Johnson testimony. The following is what she concluded.

"The evidence of neighbours is fallible and some – such as that of Michelle Burger and her husband Charl Johnson should be rejected entirely."

Ruling out Burger/Johnson helped devalue the Stipp's testimony which it had corroborated. Although they did not know each other, and their statements were given before any of the finer details reached the press, there was much agreement in their testimonies.

 

[Marfa Lights]

J

"No please - please no!!" Who had heard that call from Reeva?

Edit: Thanks to Mr. Fossil: 3:15/3:16 Mr. Nhlengethwa

Was that evidence in court? If not: why not? It proves that Reeva saw the danger coming in some way.

Before I spend my weekend reviewing YouTube videos of witness testimony, can someone help me understand why in the world Nel would have accepted Roux's timeline that placed the final "bang/shots" at 3:17?

As you can see from the above quote, Mr. Nhlengethwa called security at 3:16:13 (busy signal) and then again at 3:16:36 to report that his wife woke him up after hearing a single bang noise and then they both heard loud crying sounds that indicated someone needed help. Mrs. Nhlengethwa also hears a man crying for help 3x around 3:16.

Caprice Viljoen and Dr. Stipp also reported hearing a man shouting 3X for help right at the 3:16 mark, which is consistent with Oscar's version.

However, it is Oscar and Roux's version-- and their version ONLY-- that the final "bang/shots" occurred at 3:17. This follows along with his story that he went to his bedroom balcony to call 3x for help BEFORE returning to the bathroom to break down the toilet door with the cricket bat at 3:17.

All other witness testimony and phone records appear to place the final "bang/shots" between 3:14-3:15. Annette Stipp testified she looked at their bedside alarm clock just as she walked back into the bedroom from her balcony and remembers hearing the shots just as she noticed a time of 3:17 on the clock-- BUT she immediately added that this clock is 3-4 minutes fast.

Obviously, I am heavily relying on Mr. Fossil's witness timeline here, and I will gladly (?) go back and review the YouTube witness testimony to verify the witness statements and other phone evidence for this timeline if anyone can point out any errors or discrepancies.

Otherwise, I just can't understand why Nel accepted this time of 3:17 for the final "bang/shots." What am I missing here?

 

[Trotterly]

J

Before I spend my weekend reviewing YouTube videos of witness testimony, can someone help me understand why in the world Nel would have accepted Roux's timeline that placed the final "bang/shots" at 3:17?

As you can see from the above quote, Mr. Nhlengethwa called security at 3:16:13 (busy signal) and then again at 3:16:36 to report that his wife woke him up after hearing a single bang noise and then they both heard loud crying sounds that indicated someone needed help. Mrs. Nhlengetha also hears a man crying for help 3x around 3:16.

Caprice Viljoen and Dr. Stipp also reported hearing a man shouting 3X for help right at the 3:16 mark, which is consistent with Oscar's version.

However, it is Oscar and Roux's version-- and their version ONLY-- that the final "bang/shots" occurred at 3:17. This follows along with his story that he went to his bedroom balcony to call 3x for help BEFORE returning to the bathroom to break down the toilet door with the cricket bat at 3:17.

All other witness testimony and phone records appear to place the final "bang/shots" between 3:14-3:15. Annette Stipp testified she looked at their bedside alarm clock just as she walked back into the bedroom from her balcony and remembers hearing the shots just as she noticed a time of 3:17 on the clock-- BUT she immediately added that this clock is 3-4 minutes fast.

Obviously, I am heavily relying on Mr. Fossil's witness timeline here, and I will gladly (?) go back and review the YouTube witness testimony to verify the witness statements and other phone evidence for this timeline if anyone can point out any errors or discrepancies.

Otherwise, I just can't understand why Nel accepted this time of 3:17 for the final "bang/shots." What am I missing here?

Roux's Annexures.

 

[cottonweaver]

J

Before I spend my weekend reviewing YouTube videos of witness testimony, can someone help me understand why in the world Nel would have accepted Roux's timeline that placed the final "bang/shots" at 3:17?
Otherwise, I just can't understand why Nel accepted this time of 3:17 for the final "bang/shots." What am I missing here?

RSBM
Coincidentally I was just re-reading some pages from thread 61

is this any help? on this page in thread 61 there are lots of points about it

mr jitty:
"
It also fits Mrs Stipp looking at the clock - a time Masipa has to change by 10mins for no apparent reason

However I will offer some defence of Nel here.

First there are obvious errors in the police investigation - clearly they just weren't up to a case where technical (i.e. iPhone) aspects were going to be super critical. Also we don't know what records the state tried to get - or whether there are some exhibits not referred to.

Second - I felt Nel had completely demolished the highly improbable version OP offered. It would not have been obvious (except with hindsight) that he needed to demolish the obvious lies even more. He made this point in his closing. The witnesses heard a woman screaming, and she was found dead at the accused's hand. What more does a judge want? I think extra phone records would have made no different to this judge who was prepared to overlook even more glaring problems - like the screams, the damage in the bathroom, the fight, the stomach contents etc,... because call times?

I tend to agree with you about Johnson.

I think if there was an exhibit - then Roux would have mentioned it during X.

So then it turned out to be a blunder to refer to "3.17" shots - which i think Nel meant much more loosely.

However all of this only comes into play because the judge decides to ignore large amounts of circumstantial evidence which makes OP's story highly improbable in order to seize on some peripheral points.

I mean what is more important?

That it was 3.15 or 3.17?

Or that the unchallenged evidence of several witnesses was that they heard a woman screaming?

It involves adopting a highly artificial view of the facts for Rouxs version to make any sense."

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?272507-Discussion-Thread-61-the-appeal/page34

 

[cottonweaver]

Marfa Lights,

Further to last post

Bystanders clip from you tube is also handily on that same page, if that saves any time


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?272507-Discussion-Thread-61-the-appeal/page34

 

[Deleted member 102539]

That's my point. You only know a crime scene is a crime scene only in hindsight. Aimee could have caused the crash by looking in the handbag whilst driving and killed a pedestrian for instance.

bbm

I think, Aimee is a smart educated young woman. Then she would have known that there is a !!!crime scene!!! where lawyers, friends, relatives, neighbours, manager, head of police psychologists, last not least POLICE etc. etc. are running around excitedly, where a young woman lies dead in her blood with a perforated head and where it is known by all present in that home, that her brother O had been the shooter.

 

[cottonweaver]

Re my previous posts @ Marfa Lights, credit to LemonMousse actually.

From Lemon Mousse initaiating the topic
"Seems to me there's a simple choice...either Dr Stipp is a barefaced liar, willing to risk his career and reputation in order to get a man he doesn't know convicted of murder (as Roux suggested) or Johnson's notes/phone were wrong.

We know that nobody - neither the State nor the defence - checked the central time server of Johnson's provider, or consulted actual records. They simply took his word for the time. This is proved during Johnson's questioning. His notes/phone only needed to be a minute out and the whole thing falls into place.

Gunshots at 3.14/15...Stipp calls security at 3.15, Mr Mike at 3.16, Johnson faffs and calls wrong security at this time, then the Van der Merwe's. Everyone who heard anything after these shots reports a male crying. Everyone who heard anything before them heard two voices and a female screaming.

The prosecution dropped the ball here...they should have either gone to get the actual provider records for Johnson's call or highlighted to the court that they didn't have them and therefore were relying on unsubstantiated information. Nel should also not have referred to the 3.17 shots when what he really meant was the 3.17-wrong-clock shots...which would not actually have been 3.17 as the clock was fast."

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?272507-Discussion-Thread-61-the-appeal/page33

 

[cottonweaver]

bbm

I think, Aimee is a smart educated young woman. Then she would have known that there is a !!!crime scene!!! where lawyers, friends, relatives, neighbours, manager, head of police psychologists, last not least POLICE etc. etc. are running around excitedly, where a young woman lies dead in her blood with a perforated head and where it is known by all present in that home, that her brother O had been the shooter.

Thanks FG. You fully articulated my :facepalm: bewilderment post earlier on page 22!

 

[aftermath]

J

Before I spend my weekend reviewing YouTube videos of witness testimony, can someone help me understand why in the world Nel would have accepted Roux's timeline that placed the final "bang/shots" at 3:17?

As you can see from the above quote, Mr. Nhlengethwa called security at 3:16:13 (busy signal) and then again at 3:16:36 to report that his wife woke him up after hearing a single bang noise and then they both heard loud crying sounds that indicated someone needed help. Mrs. Nhlengethwa also hears a man crying for help 3x around 3:16.

Caprice Viljoen and Dr. Stipp also reported hearing a man shouting 3X for help right at the 3:16 mark, which is consistent with Oscar's version.

However, it is Oscar and Roux's version-- and their version ONLY-- that the final "bang/shots" occurred at 3:17. This follows along with his story that he went to his bedroom balcony to call 3x for help BEFORE returning to the bathroom to break down the toilet door with the cricket bat at 3:17.

All other witness testimony and phone records appear to place the final "bang/shots" between 3:14-3:15. Annette Stipp testified she looked at their bedside alarm clock just as she walked back into the bedroom from her balcony and remembers hearing the shots just as she noticed a time of 3:17 on the clock-- BUT she immediately added that this clock is 3-4 minutes fast.

Obviously, I am heavily relying on Mr. Fossil's witness timeline here, and I will gladly (?) go back and review the YouTube witness testimony to verify the witness statements and other phone evidence for this timeline if anyone can point out any errors or discrepancies.

Otherwise, I just can't understand why Nel accepted this time of 3:17 for the final "bang/shots." What am I missing here?

Isn't it that dr stipp heard the second set of sounds when he was trying to call security, recorded on phone data logs as happening at 3:17?

 

[Marfa Lights]

Isn't it that dr stipp heard the second set of sounds when he was trying to call security, recorded on phone data logs as happening at 3:17?

No, at least according to Mr. Fossil's timeline, Dr. Stipp's last call to security (Pieter Baba) was recorded at 3:15:51.

 

[Marfa Lights]

Roux's Annexures.

Do you happen to have a link? Or just tell me where to find them-- I checked his HOA and it's not there.

 

[Trotterly]

No, at least according to Mr. Fossil's timeline, Dr. Stipp's last call to security (Pieter Baba) was recorded at 3:15:51.

Correct, there is no record of any 3.17 call until "Stipp's attempted call to 10111" in the DT's HOA.

 

[Trotterly]

Do you happen to have a link? Or just tell me where to find them-- I checked his HOA and it's not there.

I wish I did. Tried emailing the DT but no luck. They are a bit of a missing link when it comes to a complete picture of the timeline.