Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #63 ~ the appeal~

[Interested Bystander]

Snipped in the interest of brevity

By just moving when Burger and Johnson hear the shots, their testimony falls into line with other testimony and also supports the ‘bat then gun’ scenario. Both hear the pause after the first shot, Burger hears the correct number (I can’t account for why Johnson thinks 5-6 shots) and Burger, like Dr Stipp, agrees she couldn’t wield a bat with the rapidity of the final three shots. It also makes slightly more sense to go back to bed after calling (the wrong) security than after hearing the shots.

BIB

Apologies the following is a little longwinded.

I think it is relatively easy to explain and accept that Johnson heard 5-6 shots. He was outside on an upstairs balcony with no intervening two storey building between him and OP’s bathroom. Add to that the fact that Farm Inn (situated behind Van der Merwe’s house and alongside the Johnson’s estate) is built on a rocky outcrop. Echos would not be unusual in these circumstances. In fact rocky outcrops are noted in scientific literature as one of the causes of echos. A lot of this was discussed in threads 61 and 62, though maybe not the echos per se. Scientifically it was perfectly possible for the Johnson’s to have heard the screaming. In the right circumstances screams can be heard for up to 2 MILES. Admittedly 2 miles was heard in a different situation, ie at one of the poles, but I cannot remember which just at this moment. I think we can jettison 2 miles but 700 odd metres is well within the realms of possibility.

If we cannot accept that, we have to throw out Carice’s hearing “help, help, help” as she was 212 metres away with the wind blowing in the wrong direction. Unfortunately, the screams were the absolutely vital evidence to the trial and I don’t think Nel thought deeply enough about what Roux was likely to throw at him when he (Nel) may have thought a PT Accoustics expert would not be necessary. I am sure he felt he had a slam dunk case, backed up by first class ear witnesses.

You may remember Van der Merwe at first looked in the direction of the Farm Inn when she heard arguing. This too was probably due to rebounding echos from the rocky outcrop. She was used to hearing animal calls from Farm Inn which, incidentally, is further away, by a goodly distance, than the Johnson’s were from the scene of the crime.

I find it very interesting to read your ideas and they are very welcome and I shall go back and read them more carefully before commenting on the bulk.

However, I have developed my own theory which I am finding it difficult to change. This is that here was an argument. OP chased RS (possibly wielding the cricket bat) into the bathroom. RS was screaming and no doubt OP was shouting. This explains why Mrs Stipps thought the screaming was coming nearer. So sure was she of her feelings that she actually looked down the road to see if someone was running down it. I think RS shut herself in the toilet and my feelings are that OP batted the door to frighten her but did not break it down. At this point he wanted to shut her up and went back to his bedroom to pick up his gun. When she wouldn’t be quiet, he shot once and on hearing her scream he must have known he had hit her. It was even more imperative now that he silenced Reeva and immediately he then shot three more bullets.

I think he knew exactly what he was doing, although I do accept he was in a rage. Maybe, in another country, Crime of Passion would play a part here, in which case he may well have been given a CH verdict. However, as far as I am aware, SA does not have this written into law. He was perfectly aware (and stated) that firing a warning shot may have killed him so I cannot accept Masipa’s verdict that he was not aware that shooting 4 Black Talon bullets into a confined space would have killed the occupant.

OP is an inveterate liar. This IMO he proved time and again during his testimony and I don’t think we can ignore the changes to his initial Bail Affidavit evidence. In that Reeva was asleep and he went onto the balcony and retrieved a fan. Subsequently this was changed to Reeva was awake and talking to him, asking if he couldn’t sleep and despite talking softly and shouting to her to call the police, she had suddenly became mute and is never heard again. Surely she would have asked why do we need the police in order that a call from her to them would have been coherent.

So, for me, it was bat shots to frighten Reeva (these are the first sounds the Stipps heard and why nobody else heard them), a few minutes of screaming and shouting by both of them and subsequently, in an uncontrollable rage, OP fetched his gun and shot at her through the door. I don’t doubt he regretted this afterwards but, for me, that does not absolve him from DE. He knew what he was doing was incredibly dangerous and likely to kill the occupant.

I struggle with the time-line and it having to be so accurate. Do we know that ALL the clocks were set at the same time (ie radio signal control) - no we don't and it must have been difficult for the witnesses to be absolutely exact with their given times. Did even the guards clock record the right time? Do we know this? Do we know whether the various telephone companies run their timing with automatic radio signal updating. For me, this allows some confusion to creep in.

The fact that witnesses vary a bit in their evidence doesn't surprise me either. It is a well known fact that it is possible for witnesses to give differing accounts of the same event. We are all likely to forget bits and maybe get things in a slightly different/wrong order due to the traumatic nature of what they were listening to, but, as in this case, what was clear was that they all heard a man and a woman, terrible female screams and male interjections.

 

[Mr Fossil]

I think it is relatively easy to explain and accept that Johnson heard 5-6 shots. He was outside on an upstairs balcony with no intervening two storey building between him and OP’s bathroom. Add to that the fact that Home Farm (situated behind Van der Merwe’s house and alongside the Johnson’s estate) is built on a rocky outcrop. Echos would not be unusual in these circumstances. In fact rocky outcrops are noted in scientific literature as one of the causes of echos. A lot of this was discussed in threads 61 and 62, though maybe not the echos per se. Scientifically it was perfectly possible for the Johnson’s to have heard the screaming. In the right circumstances screams can be heard for up to 2 MILES. Admittedly 2 miles was heard in a different situation, ie at one of the poles, but I cannot remember which just at this moment. I think we can jettison 2 miles but 700 odd metres is well within the realms of possibility.

However, I have developed my own theory which I am finding it difficult to change. This is that here was an argument. OP chased RS (possibly wielding the cricket bat) into the bathroom. RS was screaming and no doubt OP was shouting. This explains why Mrs Stipps thought the screaming was coming nearer. So sure was she of her feelings that she actually looked down the road to see if someone was running down it. I think RS shut herself in the toilet and my feelings are that OP batted the door to frighten her but did not break it down. At this point he wanted to shut her up and went back to his bedroom to pick up his gun. When she wouldn’t be quiet, he shot once and on hearing her scream he must have known he had hit her. It was even more imperative now that he silenced Reeva and immediately he then shot three more bullets.

I struggle with the time-line and it having to be so accurate. Do we know that ALL the clocks were set at the same time (ie radio signal control) - no we don't and it must have been difficult for the witnesses to be absolutely exact with their given times. Did even the guards clock record the right time? Do we know this? Do we know whether the various telephone companies run their timing with automatic radio signal updating. For me, this allows some confusion to creep in.

RSBM

Thanks IB, I don't think we're that far apart and would comment as follows (see BIB).

Echoes are definitely a possibility for the 5-6 shots heard by Johnson, thank you.

The reason for what happened is very much up from grabs and may well remain no more than conjecture although the earlier GPRS usage, disappearing iPhone and the timing of the argument heard by EvdM do tend to suggest to me that his phone activity may well have played a key part. So Oscar's reason for batting the door (to get at her, to get her out, to retrieve his phone, to stop her phoning etc.) is also speculative.

I have Reeva getting louder because she leaves the toilet to follow OP after he's batted the door, then running back, screaming (and sounding like she's getting nearer) because if the bat strikes are the first thing that the Stipps hear then Reeva must already be in the toilet and the subsequent screaming (and getting closer) which Annette Stipp hears must come after.

Johnson and Burger are 177m away (nearer than the Standers). I'm not sure where your reference to 700m comes from.

I don't think there's any need to change any of the call times. They all fit except Dr Stipp's later alleged call to Security at 03:27:13.

 

[cottonweaver]

Reeva is screaming throughout and, when she sees (though the hole made by the bat) Oscar leave the bathroom, she comes out of the toilet to follow. She then sees him returning, wielding the gun, and flees back to the toilet, slamming and locking the door, something he later relates in his testimony.

He then fires the gun.

It is after this that his puts his prostheses on and returns to the bathroom to kick out the smaller panel (as per the prosthesis sock mark on the door), causing a crack to split bullet hole D.

RSBM
I appreciate what I’m posting doesn’t help you with your jigsaw Fossil but anyway in response to your first post yesterday ( I haven’t read the second post properly yet.)

I have always assumed her position behind that door ( as testified by Mangena) immediately prior to shot 1, means that there was a pause, when she was either looking through a crack OR simply listening close to the door to ascertain where OP had gone to/what he was doing ( as it had become quiet and he had left the bathroom to go to the bedroom – fetching the gun.) Nel said to OP that he was talking to her through that door. It’s certainly that or that she was simply listening and trying to ascertain.

Only element where I part company, in my previous speculations, is that she actually saw the gun. I have always assumed that she would have positioned herself away from the door rather than face onto it if she had seen that. (Appreciate she had nowhere really to go in that tiny room but I would have expected her not to be face onto the door if she KNEW for sure/SAW he had the gun.) In the scenario I have had in my head, she doesn’t need to leave the loo and run back in.

I can see that prostheses could be off during the initial bat strikes as demonstrated by V, and so presumably the row had calmed for a short period between ( as per EVDM timings), before it starts up again. (In effect he “relaxed” to some extent, removed them as they were not currently in direct conflict only to put them back on later to “deal with her”.)

Anyway, that doesn't solve the puzzle but is just IMO, for what it's worth.

Further .....incidentals:
Others have suggested that the final spark for OP in the final round of rows that night was that she actually pushed him or belittled his prowess as he was without prostheses – I think that is entirely plausible- as equal a trigger as Reeva threatening to call police.

RS Phone?
(Appreciate others think if she had a phone why didn’t she use it. IMO that isn’t that vital as lots of plausible reasons 1) R may not have time 2) I don’t think R would have called the cops/friends mid of night unless she was knew this was likely a fatal scanario. Ie. Model progressing a celeb profile would not want that if she still felt she had option of leaving and 3), shame (characteristic DV scenarios) means she would not necessarily phone a friend immediately. Ie. Women obviously do not always call for help, if they did, would be less DV fatalities. 4. She may well have had her phone and because OP attempted to access it after he killed her he had to put in the B.S about trying to use her phone to cover his actions.

Key/Door Locked?
I know others have strongly felt she had no access to the key, she did not lock herself in, she was holding on to the door handle from other side. I can’t agree as IMO as for me it’s being locked has always been the catalyst for his initial smashing up of the door, tiles, bath panel etc.

 

[cottonweaver]

I can't find anything you could mean ....

Sorry FG, I just mean if there is a poster on WS who already has a Twitter account, that person could tweet DDadic a question as I am pretty sure he would reply to a short tweet/ legal question. I don't want to join Twitter just to ask him.

 

[Interested Bystander]

RSBM

Thanks IB, I don't think we're that far apart and would comment as follows (see BIB).

Echoes are definitely a possibility for the 5-6 shots heard by Johnson, thank you.

The reason for what happened is very much up from grabs and may well remain no more than conjecture although the earlier GPRS usage, disappearing iPhone and the timing of the argument heard by EvdM do tend to suggest to me that his phone activity may well have played a key part. So Oscar's reason for batting the door (to get at her, to get her out, to retrieve his phone, to stop her phoning etc.) is also speculative.

I have Reeva getting louder because she leaves the toilet to follow OP after he's batted the door, then running back, screaming (and sounding like she's getting nearer) because if the bat strikes are the first thing that the Stipps hear then Reeva must already be in the toilet and the subsequent screaming (and getting closer) which Annette Stipp hears must come after.

Johnson and Burger are 177m away (nearer than the Standers). I'm not sure where your reference to 700m comes from.

I don't think there's any need to change any of the call times. They all fit except Dr Stipp's later alleged call to Security at 03:27:13.

Ooops, distance totally incorrect although I am aware of the correct distance, apologies. Brain obviously not in gear.

I need to listen to Mr Stipps testimony again as I have obviously completely misunderstood the timing of her suggestion of hearing someone coming nearer.

What do you think about Estelle Van der Merwe's timing of 4 noises around 3am. Did she make a mistake? Is around 3am near enough to 3.15am 'ish. It seems quite a long time to me. I don't know what to make of Dr Stipp's call.

 

[Colin de France]

....... in the bat/scream/shot intending door/nothing scenario it could well be possible she was on the phone in the WC......the phone that was wiped...........more than that and accepting that he fired on the door and not on her and apart from Pistorius himself is there anyone else in the know ?.......would his sister know, has he told his family the truth, does the state already know but charged him with murder anyway to push him to tell the truth ? ........and what happens if this version is true and later on at the appeal it all goes wrong for him ........it could really make things a lot more complicated later.....

 

[cottonweaver]

Snipped in the interest of brevity


You may remember Van der Merwe at first looked in the direction of the Home Farm when she heard arguing. This too was probably due to rebounding echos from the rocky outcrop. She was used to hearing animal calls from Home Farm which, incidentally, is further away, by a goodly distance, than the Johnson’s were from the scene of the crime.

Can I just add to that part... When i listened to EVDM being questioned by Roux the other day ( link to youtube 2 pages or so back) she also says that the reason she looked towards HF was cause she looked out of that window towards HF as simply she was scared of looking out of the other windows. Roux later used that direction to undermine her - ie. she was looking in the wrong direction instead of looking towards OP's house.

Back to the cows(!) yes I can hear cows moo 1.45- 2 miles away, crow flies, but ONLY when the atmospherics are right, where I live, so don't discount the 2 miles just yet! Obviously a cow is not as piercing as a scream, but it is sounds so "close" that it is bizarre when you hear it. (I won't go on but other sounds from same location give a distinct impression of distance. ) Ditto echoes only work certain days here- plenty of rocky outcrops where I am too.
(Need to fire a gun here and see if the gun echo sounds the same as the shot!)

 

[Mr Fossil]

Ooops, distance totally incorrect although I am aware of the correct distance, apologies. Brain obviously not in gear.

I need to listen to Mr Stipps testimony again as I have obviously completely misunderstood the timing of her suggestion of hearing someone coming nearer.

What do you think about Estelle Van der Merwe's timing of 4 noises around 3am. Did she make a mistake? Is around 3am near enough to 3.15am 'ish. It seems quite a long time to me. I don't know what to make of Dr Stipp's call.

Here's a precis of the start of Mrs Stipp's testimony: she was in bed feeling fluish, thinking about drinking water, then in the process of getting up hears the first sounds. Her husband is woken by the same sounds or by her asking what was that. This is the very first thing they both hear that night. If you're going with bat/gun then all screams (and those getting nearer) have to be after this.

Around 3am can mean anything in the proximity of 3am IMO (unless a clock time is being cited) and Roux freely converts EvdM's time to mean 'prior to 03:12' in his HoA (the same HoA where the time of the shots is stated as 'between 03:12 and 03:13' and 'between 03:12 and 03:14'). Baba uses the same expression about the time the guard returns reporting rifle shots. It's a pity that neither side puts the time of her husband's call to security into evidence. I wonder why.

 

[GR_Turner]

Snipped in the interest of brevity



BIB

Apologies the following is a little longwinded.

I think it is relatively easy to explain and accept that Johnson heard 5-6 shots. He was outside on an upstairs balcony with no intervening two storey building between him and OP’s bathroom. Add to that the fact that Home Farm (situated behind Van der Merwe’s house and alongside the Johnson’s estate) is built on a rocky outcrop. Echos would not be unusual in these circumstances. In fact rocky outcrops are noted in scientific literature as one of the causes of echos. A lot of this was discussed in threads 61 and 62, though maybe not the echos per se. Scientifically it was perfectly possible for the Johnson’s to have heard the screaming. In the right circumstances screams can be heard for up to 2 MILES. Admittedly 2 miles was heard in a different situation, ie at one of the poles, but I cannot remember which just at this moment. I think we can jettison 2 miles but 700 odd metres is well within the realms of possibility.

If we cannot accept that, we have to throw out Carice’s hearing “help, help, help” as she was 212 metres away with the wind blowing in the wrong direction. Unfortunately, the screams were the absolutely vital evidence to the trial and I don’t think Nel thought deeply enough about what Roux was likely to throw at him when he (Nel) may have thought a PT Accoustics expert would not be necessary. I am sure he felt he had a slam dunk case, backed up by first class ear witnesses.

You may remember Van der Merwe at first looked in the direction of the Home Farm when she heard arguing. This too was probably due to rebounding echos from the rocky outcrop. She was used to hearing animal calls from Home Farm which, incidentally, is further away, by a goodly distance, than the Johnson’s were from the scene of the crime.

I find it very interesting to read your ideas and they are very welcome and I shall go back and read them more carefully before commenting on the bulk.

However, I have developed my own theory which I am finding it difficult to change. This is that here was an argument. OP chased RS (possibly wielding the cricket bat) into the bathroom. RS was screaming and no doubt OP was shouting. This explains why Mrs Stipps thought the screaming was coming nearer. So sure was she of her feelings that she actually looked down the road to see if someone was running down it. I think RS shut herself in the toilet and my feelings are that OP batted the door to frighten her but did not break it down. At this point he wanted to shut her up and went back to his bedroom to pick up his gun. When she wouldn’t be quiet, he shot once and on hearing her scream he must have known he had hit her. It was even more imperative now that he silenced Reeva and immediately he then shot three more bullets.

I think he knew exactly what he was doing, although I do accept he was in a rage. Maybe, in another country, Crime of Passion would play a part here, in which case he may well have been given a CH verdict. However, as far as I am aware, SA does not have this written into law. He was perfectly aware (and stated) that firing a warning shot may have killed him so I cannot accept Masipa’s verdict that he was not aware that shooting 4 Black Talon bullets into a confined space would have killed the occupant.

OP is an inveterate liar. This IMO he proved time and again during his testimony and I don’t think we can ignore the changes to his initial Bail Affidavit evidence. In that Reeva was asleep and he went onto the balcony and retrieved a fan. Subsequently this was changed to Reeva was awake and talking to him, asking if he couldn’t sleep and despite talking softly and shouting to her to call the police, she had suddenly became mute and is never heard again. Surely she would have asked why do we need the police in order that a call from her to them would have been coherent.

So, for me, it was bat shots to frighten Reeva (these are the first sounds the Stipps heard and why nobody else heard them), a few minutes of screaming and shouting by both of them and subsequently, in an uncontrollable rage, OP fetched his gun and shot at her through the door. I don’t doubt he regretted this afterwards but, for me, that does not absolve him from DE. He knew what he was doing was incredibly dangerous and likely to kill the occupant.

I struggle with the time-line and it having to be so accurate. Do we know that ALL the clocks were set at the same time (ie radio signal control) - no we don't and it must have been difficult for the witnesses to be absolutely exact with their given times. Did even the guards clock record the right time? Do we know this? Do we know whether the various telephone companies run their timing with automatic radio signal updating. For me, this allows some confusion to creep in.

The fact that witnesses vary a bit in their evidence doesn't surprise me either. It is a well known fact that it is possible for witnesses to give differing accounts of the same event. We are all likely to forget bits and maybe get things in a slightly different/wrong order due to the traumatic nature of what they were listening to, but, as in this case, what was clear was that they all heard a man and a woman, terrible female screams and male interjections.

BIB1 - I agree though I think it's more likely both Johnson and Burger heard echoes. This explains why he heard 5-6 'shots' and she heard fewer while the Stipps heard only 3. They could be mistaken but their maid also reported 3 bangs (though we don't know her full affidavit of course).

BIB2 - Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they say that the sounds continued to get louder, not that they got louder and then quieter - that's why the Stipps thought someone was coming closer. If Reeva had come into the bathroom and therefore got louder she would have sounded quieter once she was in the toilet surely. And we know she was in the toilet at the shots yet there was no corresponding reduction in sound as far as I recall. OP coming into the bathroom would also have sounded louder and he wasn't in the toilet so there would have been no reduction in sound leading up to the shots.

BIB3 - her silence on his version isn't odd at all. It would only have been a minute or 2 maximum between her opening the window and him shooting. This isn't very long at all. And it's not as though she'd need to ask why call the police once he started yelling at an intruder to get out. It would have been obvious.

 

[GR_Turner]

of course it's EVDM opinion?! everyone realises that. And?

fight over phone - I think FGermany was throwing that in as an example of lateral thinking / exploring every option- as those genuinely looking for truths may do. Then FG went and asked a friend for their opinion which was a big No, but FG still posted that rejection - integrity I guess. That's how I read it anyway.

Yes it wasn't a great idea because it would be strange for 2 people in the same house to argue on the phone. Not an entirely silly idea if it wasn't them though.

 

[Interested Bystander]

BIB1 - I agree though I think it's more likely both Johnson and Burger heard echoes. This explains why he heard 5-6 'shots' and she heard fewer while the Stipps heard only 3. They could be mistaken but their maid also reported 3 bangs (though we don't know her full affidavit of course).

BIB2 - Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they say that the sounds continued to get louder, not that they got louder and then quieter - that's why the Stipps thought someone was coming closer. If Reeva had come into the bathroom and therefore got louder she would have sounded quieter once she was in the toilet surely. And we know she was in the toilet at the shots yet there was no corresponding reduction in sound as far as I recall. OP coming into the bathroom would also have sounded louder and he wasn't in the toilet so there would have been no reduction in sound leading up to the shots.

BIB3 - her silence on his version isn't odd at all. It would only have been a minute or 2 maximum between her opening the window and him shooting. This isn't very long at all. And it's not as though she'd need to ask why call the police once he started yelling at an intruder to get out. It would have been obvious.

Re BIB2. The first sounds the Stipps heard, as has quite correctly been pointed out, were the first set of bangs so the screaming coming nearer now seems a little odd to me. I am going to listen again to Mrs Stipps testimony before I comment further.

Re BIB3. I have to disagree. Had it been me and my OH spoke quietly or whispered (whilst he was still in the bedroom) depending on which you think he said (as he changed his mind about this), immediately I would have asked what is the problem. I don't think OP ever shouted "call the police" as he seems to have made most of his story up but I know you will disagree with me about that. We shall have to agree to differ. My opinion is that he was generally making a lot of noise to cover RS screams as he was chasing her towards the bathroom and possibly shouting "get the F out of here".

 

[Trotterly]

Can I just add to that part... When i listened to EVDM being questioned by Roux the other day ( link to youtube 2 pages or so back) she also says that the reason she looked towards HF was cause she looked out of that window towards HF as simply she was scared of looking out of the other windows. Roux later used that direction to undermine her - ie. she was looking in the wrong direction instead of looking towards OP's house.

Back to the cows(!) yes I can hear cows moo 1.45- 2 miles away, crow flies, but ONLY when the atmospherics are right, where I live, so don't discount the 2 miles just yet! Obviously a cow is not as piercing as a scream, but it is sounds so "close" that it is bizarre when you hear it. (I won't go on but other sounds from same location give a distinct impression of distance. ) Ditto echoes only work certain days here- plenty of rocky outcrops where I am too.
(Need to fire a gun here and see if the gun echo sounds the same as the shot!)

The only argument evidence from EVDM that would have been accepted by the court was that at the time of the screams. Prior to that any voices heard could not be tied to OP/Reeva. Roux knew this and so did Nel who when challenged to provide any evidence of an argument could only offer the screams and made no mention of any raised voice/s. This is a very important point and one which I think explains much of OP's attitude towards the PT, as highlighted in his opening statement to the court.

 

[Trotterly]

Masipa knew on day 1 of delivering this verdict, that she had F'd it up, hence her sudden break ( we were all baffled) and returning next day to try and cover it up.

Now that's a "dramatic pause."

I have heard this said before that Masipa made a sudden break but I don't remember it. Didn't she start on the second count on day 2? Why was it a sudden break?

 

[GR_Turner]

Re BIB2. The first sounds the Stipps heard, as has quite correctly been pointed out, were the first set of bangs so the screaming coming nearer now seems a little odd to me. I am going to listen again to Mrs Stipps testimony before I comment further.

Re BIB3. I have to disagree. Had it been me and my OH spoke quietly or whispered (whilst he was still in the bedroom) depending on which you think he said (as he changed his mind about this), immediately I would have asked what is the problem. I don't think OP ever shouted "call the police" as he seems to have made most of his story up but I know you will disagree with me about that. We shall have to agree to differ. My opinion is that he was generally making a lot of noise to cover RS screams as he was chasing her towards the bathroom and possibly shouting "get the F out of here".

RE BIB3 - I think you're confusing what OP thought was happening with what actually happened on his version. Reeva was in the bathroom or toilet all the time during OP shouting prior to the shots so she wouldn't have heard him whisper before the shouting (even if that happened). All she'd have heard was sudden shouting about an intruder and 'call the police'. In those circumstances, yes, she might have called out but then again I'd have probably decided the lock myself in the toilet as she did and listen carefully to try to work out what was going on.

It would only have taken 40 seconds (?), 1 minute (?) for him to make his way into the bathroom and then shoot. It's really not a long time.

 

[Interested Bystander]

RE BIB3 - I think you're confusing what OP thought was happening with what actually happened on his version. Reeva was in the bathroom or toilet all the time during OP shouting prior to the shots so she wouldn't have heard him whisper before the shouting (even if that happened). All she'd have heard was sudden shouting about an intruder and 'call the police'. In those circumstances, yes, she might have called out but then again I'd have probably decided the lock myself in the toilet as she did and listen carefully to try to work out what was going on.

It would only have taken 40 seconds (?), 1 minute (?) for him to make his way into the bathroom and then shoot. It's really not a long time.

Not really. Just demonstrating what a liar he is. If his testimony was true RS would have answered him. Had it been my OH I would not have been left without an indication of what was happening and why I needed to call the police. Much like OP shouting "call the police", it really depends whether you believe his lies and whether you think he mistakenly thought RS was still in the bedroom. It just didn't happen.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I have just listened to Mrs Stipps testimony in which she clearly states the first set of sounds was 03.02 as indicated by her radio/clock which she knew was 3 or 4 minutes fast. Therefore the estimated time of the first noises must be 02.58 to 02.59. The second set of sounds she registers at 03.17. That is a full 15 minutes (by her clock). If those of you who believe the first sounds were when OP killed RS, WHAT was he doing for the following 20 minutes until his first call to Stander at 03.19. If, as he claims, the second noises at 3.15’ish were him breaking the door down it would mean he left Reeva dying in the “locked” toilet without attempting to get any help for a full 15 minutes. Is that what you really believe?

 

[Colin de France]

I have just listened to Mrs Stipps testimony in which she clearly states the first set of sounds was 03.02 as indicated by her radio/clock which she knew was 3 or 4 minutes fast. Therefore the estimated time of the first noises must be 02.58 to 02.59. The second set of sounds she registers at 03.17. That is a full 15 minutes (by her clock). If those of you who believe the first sounds were when OP killed RS, WHAT was he doing for the following 20 minutes until his first call to Stander at 03.19. If, as he claims, the second noises at 3.15’ish were him breaking the door down it would mean he left Reeva dying in the “locked” toilet without attempting to get any help for a full 15 minutes. Is that what you really believe?

....and no one heard the screams.......no i think the bat/screams/shots has it in all directions the problem is it's been a long time that the same debate has been going ......it's difficult to take on another version.........

 

[lithgow1]

Not really. Just demonstrating what a liar he is. If his testimony was true RS would have answered him. Had it been my OH I would not have been left without an indication of what was happening and why I needed to call the police. Much like OP shouting "call the police", it really depends whether you believe his lies and whether you think he mistakenly thought RS was still in the bedroom. It just didn't happen.

Her total silence is one of the things I find most suss about his story. After the `Can't you sleep baba` the only sounds attributed to her are the two that support his version - the window opening and the (later addition) of the toilet door closing. Not a word of `what are you doing?` when he hops out of bed to bring in the fans, not a rustle as she gets out of bed, no sounds (or light) as she walks down a dark hallway and then of course not a word when all the screaming starts.

Personally I don`t even believe she opened the bathroom window. Just as he needs her to be totally silent, he needs that noise, but why would she bother? OK, she may have done it as a semi-automatic thing but I really don't see why you would care about the window if you are just using the toilet in the middle of the night. From what I recall of the layout you would have to make a detour over to the left to actually open it whereas walking in a direct line would take you straight into the toilet. It is not even so much that I think it unlikely that she would bother, though I do, it is that it is essential for him that she does, and I believe very little of his version of events.

 

[soozieqtips]

RE BIB3 - I think you're confusing what OP thought was happening with what actually happened on his version. Reeva was in the bathroom or toilet all the time during OP shouting prior to the shots so she wouldn't have heard him whisper before the shouting (even if that happened). All she'd have heard was sudden shouting about an intruder and 'call the police'. In those circumstances, yes, she might have called out but then again I'd have probably decided the lock myself in the toilet as she did and listen carefully to try to work out what was going on.

It would only have taken 40 seconds (?), 1 minute (?) for him to make his way into the bathroom and then shoot. It's really not a long time.

BIB - when did OP say he shouted about an intruder? He said he whispered/ said in a low tone to call the police... but I don't recall him using the word 'intruder' while he was recounting what he was shouting that night.

 

[cottonweaver]

After reading Alfred Jack's comment below the Daily Maverick article by Nicholas Taitz, I am starting to believe there may be an escape hatch here for Oscar after all-- if the Court excuses his intent to kill whoever was behind the door (Intruder X) on the basis of PPD, then does it follow that he cannot be culpable for the unintended murder of Reeva (Y) that was the result of an error in objecto or mistaken identity?

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opin...a-was-right-on-dolus-and-murder/#.Vcc973g-B8d

Does this work ?

He can't put it any simpler - it's complex and he's as academic:

"In conclusion, we have seen several attempts to justify Masipa’s judgment, all of which seem to fail. It does not make Masipa’s judgment right to pretend that her reasons were reasons that would make her judgement right: that she decided that the accused had not accepted the risk of killing the deceased, that she recognised putative private defence, or that she found that the accused only intended to injure the intended target. These were not her reasons and, however valid they may be, it doesn’t help to pretend that they were her reasons. It also doesn’t help to attempt to justify the distortion of our law on dolus indeterminatus and dolus eventualis applied to error in objecto and the logical error made by Masipa. The law on dolus indeterminatus and error in objecto is clear. Nominal/name identity is irrelevant – for that very reason it cannot help the accused if he thought that it was B behind the door; nor can it help an accused who argues that he thought that it was not C. The identity of whoever was behind the door remains irrelevant – and the indictment did not need to remind the judge that it is not relevant. Finally, there is no reason to ignore this clear law (that nominal/name identity is irrelevant) just because the scenario triggers the rules relating to both error in objecto and putative private defence. There appears to be nothing to save us from the inevitable conclusion that Masipa made errors of law and errors of logic"

http://criminallawza.net/2014/09/28...ustify-judge-masipas-errors-revised-expanded/