Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #63 ~ the appeal~

[aftermath]

Thanks, but I am not the poster who asked the question. But while we are chatting, do you have any ideas as to why Reeva would have opened the window in the bathroom but not turned on the light? Seems the odd way around to me.

As for her being too scared to talk, by OP`s version he was metres away and still screaming (his evidence is that after going quiet on reaching the bathroom he began to scream again, thinking the intruder was in the toilet). There is no logical reason why she would not have spoken at that point had this whole scenario been the misunderstanding he claims it to be. She cannot have thought that the intruder was between her and him as all there was separating them was a couple of metres of empty space. If his story to this point is true, there is absolutely no logical reason why she would not have said `Oscar it`s me`. None at all.

Sorry! I thought it was you. Oops!

Re the window... I don't know... Perhaps there was enough ambient light to see her way to the toilet and she had her phone with her anyway for a light source? If it was still quite warm, and she knew he was closing the patio doors, perhaps she just wanted bit of air coming through before she went to bed properly?

If she did think that pistorius and an intruder were heading her way, who knows what she would have thought in all the confusion? She could have thought pistorius was chasing an intruder down the passageway towards the bathroom. (there was plenty of room for another person to be in the bathroom than just pistorius) Or perhaps she thought pistorius was backing back towards the bathroom from the bedroom, being pursued by an intruder. If she wasn't sure which way, it would make sense to keep quiet and listen at the door to try and work out what exactly was going on.

 

[cottonweaver]

....... Oldwadge ........snipped The kind of person that makes me think wistfully of tumbrels, guillotines, Che Guevara and up against the wall. Well maybe not that far. Bankruptcy and a particularly lurid sex scandal that leads to disbarment would be enough. For all his twisting and turning I didn`t find Roux to be personally repellant in the way Oldwadge was.

RSBM

BIB Your imaginative flights of fancy are intriguing and funny. Although what you suggest would be fascinating I imagine KO is "bullet-proof" for a number of reasons.
(Incidentally apparently he is not a popular character in Pretorian legal circles but I'm afraid I can't remember where I read that.)
Tumbrels - had top look that up! Come on, what about Olde English "hung, drawn and quartering"? ( Joke. )

 

[Interested Bystander]

RSBM

BIB Your imaginative flights of fancy are intriguing and funny. Although what you suggest would be fascinating I imagine KO is "bullet-proof" for a number of reasons.
Incidentally apparently he is not a popular character in Pretorian legal circles but I'm afraid I can't remember
Tumbrels - had top look that up! Come on, what about Olde English "hung, drawn and quartering"? ( Joke. )

BIB

I remember that too.

 

[cottonweaver]

I wish exactly the same thing. Cleaning toilets would be a start.

And anyway, I'd rather be vindictive than a killer.

Cleaning toilets might well satisfy any or all of the purposes of justice .....retribution, deterrence, rehabilitation etc. ( Just as a street cleaning sentence is not seen as "vindictive" or evidence of the sentencing judge being a "hater" as people like to say. )

Manual labour can effect reflection, it's not necessarily humiliating.

 

[aftermath]

Cleaning toilets might well satisfy any or all of the purposes of justice .....retribution, deterrence, rehabilitation etc. ( Just as a street cleaning sentence is not seen as "vindictive" or evidence of the sentencing judge being a "hater" as people like to say. )

Manual labour can effect reflection, it's not necessarily humiliating.

You're right- if the intention of allocating a particular 'community service '-style job is all about rehabilitation, giving something back to society, and typical of the kind of job given to probationers etc, then there cannot really be an issue. However, if the allocation of such a job has an element of deliberate humiliation or vindictiveness about it, then I think it's pretty disappointing that what should be an objective, positive process should become clouded with emotion.

 

[lithgow1]

You're right- if the intention of allocating a particular 'community service '-style job is all about rehabilitation, giving something back to society, and typical of the kind of job given to probationers etc, then there cannot really be an issue. However, if the allocation of such a job has an element of deliberate humiliation or vindictiveness about it, then I think it's pretty disappointing that what should be an objective, positive process should become clouded with emotion.

i don`t think cleaning is humiliating but I would bet the house that OP does, which is precisely why I would like him to have to do it. Do you remember how quickly Roux jumped up to offer alternatives to cleaning when it was suggested? I am sure OP`s attitude is `we have servants to do that'.

 

[Interested Bystander]

RSBM

I agree that her initial testimony to Nel does read as you say but the point she later stresses to Oldwage is that the observed time of 03:02 was when she woke coughing (as per her quoted testimony) not the time of the first sounds. She doesn't know how long after 03:02 they occurred.

I wrote a long response to this post but the internet/perhaps my computer seems to be "eating my posts". Anyone else having trouble?

I think Olwage bamboozled Mrs Stipps and I felt she thought he was going to challenge her timing and so she stuck to 03.02, the time she first looked at the clock. It is not what she said when originally asked by Nel as you have noted. I still feel the first sounds she heard were very soon after 03.02. Actually when I read your Witness Testimony spreadsheet I thought you felt the same. Here is your log:

"Just after 3:02 on clock radio (3-4 mins fast), in process of getting up hears 3 gun shots."

In the your second spreadsheet you do say you don't know how long the gap between the time and the first shots was. I am still assuming it was very short. Why else would she have told Nel what she did when he questioned her?

However, the point of my original post was to ask OP supporters if they were happy that he left Reeva dying in a locked cubicle for what I consider a very long time before calling for assistance at 03.19; calling Stander before anyone else. If the first shots were the ones that killed RS, by failing to break down the door immediately, this would indicate that OP had no interest in the suffering he had caused RS, her injuries or her survival. IMO he would have spent the time thinking up his alibi.

 

[aftermath]

I wrote a long response to this post but the internet/perhaps my computer seems to be "eating my posts". Anyone else having trouble?

I think Olwage bamboozled Mrs Stipps and I felt she thought he was going to challenge her timing and so she stuck to 03.02, the time she first looked at the clock. It is not what she said when originally asked by Nel as you have noted. I still feel the first sounds she heard were very soon after 03.02. Actually when I read your Witness Testimony spreadsheet I thought you felt the same. Here is your log:

"Just after 3:02 on clock radio (3-4 mins fast), in process of getting up hears 3 gun shots."

In the your second spreadsheet you do say you don't know how long the gap between the time and the first shots was. I am still assuming it was very short. Why else would she have told Nel what she did when he questioned her?

However, the point of my original post was to ask OP supporters if they were happy that he left Reeva dying in a locked cubicle for what I consider a very long time before calling for assistance at 03.19; calling Stander before anyone else. If the first shots were the ones that killed RS, by failing to break down the door immediately, this would indicate that OP had no interest in the suffering he had caused RS, her injuries or her survival. IMO he would have spent the time thinking up his alibi.

If the shots were at around 3:12 as the defence heads suggests, there would only be an approx five minute space between firing the shots and breaking the door with the bat.

 

[Colin de France]

If the shots were at around 3:12 as the defence heads suggests, there would only be an approx five minute space between firing the shots and breaking the door with the bat.

.....you will have to be exact, are you referring to the bat/scream/shots version or the intruder version shots/bat......

 

[Mr Fossil]

I wrote a long response to this post but the internet/perhaps my computer seems to be "eating my posts". Anyone else having trouble?

I think Olwage bamboozled Mrs Stipps and I felt she thought he was going to challenge her timing and so she stuck to 03.02, the time she first looked at the clock. It is not what she said when originally asked by Nel as you have noted. I still feel the first sounds she heard were very soon after 03.02. Actually when I read your Witness Testimony spreadsheet I thought you felt the same. Here is your log:

"Just after 3:02 on clock radio (3-4 mins fast), in process of getting up hears 3 gun shots."

In the your second spreadsheet you do say you don't know how long the gap between the time and the first shots was. I am still assuming it was very short. Why else would she have told Nel what she did when he questioned her?

However, the point of my original post was to ask OP supporters if they were happy that he left Reeva dying in a locked cubicle for what I consider a very long time before calling for assistance at 03.19; calling Stander before anyone else. If the first shots were the ones that killed RS, by failing to break down the door immediately, this would indicate that OP had no interest in the suffering he had caused RS, her injuries or her survival. IMO he would have spent the time thinking up his alibi.

Sorry to hear about your "eaten posts", I sometimes find that WS hangs when I 'Submit Reply' so I now copy my reply first to be sure not to lose it. That said, most times it comes out of the hang successfully if I wait.

I think we agree that the first sounds she hears were not at the observed 03:02, they were after, "just after" according to her Afrikaans statement. My view about the time between '03:02' and the first sounds is open. I doubt she was that wakeful during the period before the sounds. She felt unwell, she's lying in bed thinking what do do, but for how long I don't know. But I don't think it is so important other than I agree with the point you make about how long OP must have left Reeva dying in the toilet if the first sounds were gunshots. At the moment I'm thinking they were not.

 

[Colin de France]

Sorry to hear about your "eaten posts", I sometimes find that WS hangs when I 'Submit Reply' so I now copy my reply first to be sure not to lose it. That said, most times it comes out of the hang successfully if I wait.

I think we agree that the first sounds she hears were not at the observed 03:02, they were after, "just after" according to her Afrikaans statement. My view about the time between '03:02' and the first sounds is open. I doubt she was that wakeful during the period before the sounds. She felt unwell, she's lying in bed thinking what do do, but for how long I don't know. But I don't think it is so important other than I agree with the point you make about how long OP must have left Reeva dying in the toilet if the first sounds were gunshots. At the moment I'm thinking they were not.

....i don't think they were either.......i think there was an attempt to get in with the bat it didn't work and so he went for the gun to blow the door apart, but that didn't work either and in the process killed Reeva who i believe he loved......

 

[soozieqtips]

~snipped~

Or perhaps she thought pistorius was backing back towards the bathroom from the bedroom, being pursued by an intruder. If she wasn't sure which way, it would make sense to keep quiet and listen at the door to try and work out what exactly was going on.

BIB - Isn't it a bit late to keep quiet after slamming the toilet door?

Slamming involves force and noise.

 

[aftermath]

.....you will have to be exact, are you referring to the bat/scream/shots version or the intruder version shots/bat......

Intruder version: shots/screams /bat

(As outlined in the defence heads of argument)

 

[aftermath]

~snipped~



BIB - Isn't it a bit late to keep quiet after slamming the toilet door?

Slamming involves force and noise.

Could have slammed it by accident. Since the door opened outwards, she would have been pulling it back towards herself - relatively easy to pull the door too hard in panic/fear/haste.

Pistorius's F-F-f response could have made him tune in more acutely to the sounds of the perceived intruder, making the sound of the door closing seem louder.

 

[Mr Fossil]

If the shots were at around 3:12 as the defence heads suggests, there would only be an approx five minute space between firing the shots and breaking the door with the bat.

The only reference to 03:12 I have found so far in the trial is when Roux refers to Johnson's notes during OP's EIC as the time when Johnson wakes to hear screaming (not shots). Are you aware of any other source?

Allied to this we have OP's view that the the time between the gunshots and bat strikes was 5 minutes and it being in accord with the elapsed time between 03:12 and 03:17. But here it all gets a bit woolly because the 03:17 time this is being compared to is the end of Johnson's call time (after which he says he hears the second sounds but I'm not so sure about this) and the 03:17 time of Dr Stipp. What 03:17 time? His clock is 3-4 minutes fast. See page 133/4 of the transcript.

Then OP himself says later that the time between the shots and him being in the toilet (i.e. after the bat strikes) was 'maybe a couple of minutes after the incident' (p587/8). I think he has slipped up here and this is true if the shots come after the bat strikes and he simply puts on his prostheses and kicks the smaller panel in.

 

[aftermath]

The only reference to 03:12 I have found so far in the trial is when Roux refers to Johnson's notes during OP's EIC as the time when Johnson wakes to hear screaming (not shots). Are you aware of any other source?

Allied to this we have OP's view that the the time between the gunshots and bat strikes was 5 minutes and it being in accord with the elapsed time between 03:12 and 03:17. But here it all gets a bit woolly because the 03:17 time this is being compared to is the end of Johnson's call time (after which he says he hears the second sounds but I'm not so sure about this) and the 03:17 time of Dr Stipp. What 03:17 time? His clock is 3-4 minutes fast. See page 133/4 of the transcript.

Then OP himself says later that the time between the shots and him being in the toilet (i.e. after the bat strikes) was 'maybe a couple of minutes after the incident' (p587/8). I think he has slipped up here and this is true if the shots come after the bat strikes and he simply puts on his prostheses and kicks the smaller panel in.

There are a few references by Roux in the defence heads when setting out their timeline. dealing with Mrs VdM's testimony and when dealing with Mrs Stipp's testimony. I think I also recall him mentioning a discrepancy with the timings during Dr Stipp's (?) cross examination, saying wtte that the defense estimates a five minute gap between bangs rather.than 15...

 

[cottonweaver]

i don`t think cleaning is humiliating but I would bet the house that OP does, which is precisely why I would like him to have to do it. Do you remember how quickly Roux jumped up to offer alternatives to cleaning when it was suggested? I am sure OP`s attitude is `we have servants to do that'.

Indeed. And the Pistapologists on the OP forums concur with Roux, teaching disabled children sports is more appropriate for him. Re. rehabilitation of an offender I think Pistorius et al will be focussing more on rehabilitation of public image rather than rehab in the original sense. Hardly atonement.

I'm sure the time to go on Oprah will come, but I think we have a while to wait yet!

Giving back to society? You sure can't "give back" a life that easily .....

 

[soozieqtips]

Could have slammed it by accident. Since the door opened outwards, she would have been pulling it back towards herself - relatively easy to pull the door too hard in panic/fear/haste.

Pistorius's F-F-f response could have made him tune in more acutely to the sounds of the perceived intruder, making the sound of the door closing seem louder.

In order to believe that, you have to dismiss his very own words. Why would you do that? It was the toilet door slamming which reinforced his 'belief' that an invisible intruder was in there. He needed it to be loud enough to be certain there was someone in there. Out of interest, how do you decide which of his words are truth, lies, or exaggeration?

 

[aftermath]

In order to believe that, you have to dismiss his very own words. Why would you do that? It was the toilet door slamming which reinforced his 'belief' that an invisible intruder was in there. He needed it to be loud enough to be certain there was someone in there. Out of interest, how do you decide which of his words are truth, lies, or exaggeration?

BIB no you wouldn't

 

[Mr Fossil]

There are a few references by Roux in the defence heads when setting out their timeline. dealing with Mrs VdM's testimony and when dealing with Mrs Stipp's testimony. I think I also recall him mentioning a discrepancy with the timings during Dr Stipp's (?) cross examination, saying wtte that the defense estimates a five minute gap between bangs rather.than 15...

Yes, there are, but none in the trial itself. With the exception of the reference to Johnson's noted waking at 03:12, other references to 03:12 in the HoA appear to be speculative conjecture based on Roux's timeline. It is clearly an approach which, like it or not, worked for his client but it is possible to fit other plausible scenarios to the timeline in a similar manner. Indeed, I understand the defence came up with some 40+ possible timeline variations before settling on the one put forward and I'm not surprised. I was just wondering if you were aware of any other sources for the time. I'm not aware of any.