Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #63 ~ the appeal~

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  • #521
My initial thoughts and questions.

1. Assuming the experts are correct and the toilet was flushed prior to Reeva being shot, that flushing occurred within about 18 seconds of her slumping over the toilet bowl and it is not possible to flush the toilet accidentally:

1.1 Reeva went to the toilet (or at least flushed it), which is consistent with OP's version. Or was this after the bat strikes?
1.2 Why didn't OP hear the toilet flush?
1.3 Why would Reeva flush the toilet if OP is shouting and screaming for the intruders to get out and Reeva to call the police and she is scared (e.g. she doesn't tell Oscar where she is)?

2. Or could the experts be wrong and it was OP who flushed the toilet?

2.1 The blood flow would have continued from Reeva after this
2.2 The spinters of wood in the bowl could have fallen from Reeva as he moved her
2.3 Why would OP flush the toilet with Reeva still slumped over the toilet?

I can understand why the toilet flush was not and could not be included in evidence because it fits neither version and it can really lead nowhere, pure speculation.

My own view is that OP's spontaneous reaction to seeing all that blood pouring all over the white toilet bowl was to flush it away. Whether that was for any sinister motive depends on your preferred version. Anyone who has tried to flush away wood pieces or anything else that floats will know that some remain in the bowl especially if it's one of those useless water saving eco flushes. Reeva would have continued to bleed until he moved her and this accounts for the pattern seen.

Quite disturbing to see a body being removed from that cubicle even though it was just a dummy.
 
  • #522
Further to my previous answer I've done some more research. Roux questions Stipp about the time of the 10111 call. 03:17 is what he wrote in his statement and agrees to this repeatedly in his cross examination. Not once is there any reference to his clock being fast that I can find but I would suggest that his point of reference can only have been the observed clock radio time or his wife told him. It's a mystery. His call sequence only works if it is based on the observed time, since his call to security is timed at 03:15:51. Nevertheless, Roux put this all to good use. I suspect had he asked Stipp, he'd have been put right. Why Nel didn't pick this up I don't know.

I've just been rewatching Dr Stipp's cross-examination to see what's said about the 10111 phone call. I haven't got there yet and won't tonight now but I must say I'm totally fascinated by Roux's cross. He's using Dr Stipp's evidence to try to find out what the state's case is by asking questions that Nel then has to jump up and say are not common cause. It's fascinating because both sides are to a degree working in the dark as to exactly what the other's case is.

All throughout this, Nel repeatedly puts the second bangs at 3.17 or roundabout 3.17, something he'd first agreed with during Johnson's cross. I didn't remember that.

I don't know if the state are obliged to keep to what they say- in terms of the second bangs being at 3.17. It'd be interesting to know as if they are then as might explain why they didn't try to argue that the bangs were earlier even later on. Though as far as I know, they could have reopened their case again after the defense evidence if they had something new such as phone records to add. In short, I'm just astonished by Nel.
 
  • #523
And if it was him who flushed the toilet immediately after entering the WC? Blood away - murder not done, maybe his motto. Perhaps he had also attempted to flush the cartridge case, one had yet found later?

..........maybe illegal substances ......?..
 
  • #524
“The Paralympic champion's specific supervision conditions for when he leaves jail next week have not been released to "protect his privacy", correctional services officials have said.

However it is thought he will live under effective house arrest at his uncle Arnold's home in Waterkloof, Pretoria where he is likely to be required to do community service, take part in regular mental health checks and refrain from drinking alcohol”.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...onths-jail-killing-girlfriend-Reeva-Steenkamp

Uncle Arnold will probably say the same thing he did at the bail hearing, “Banning Oscar from having alcohol is not fair. It’s not relevant because he doesn’t drink alcohol at all”.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-uncle-wants-to-take-him-to-moz-1.1484657#.Vcx2MI0Vg4k
 
  • #525
“The Paralympic champion's specific supervision conditions for when he leaves jail next week have not been released to "protect his privacy", correctional services officials have said.

However it is thought he will live under effective house arrest at his uncle Arnold's home in Waterkloof, Pretoria where he is likely to be required to do community service, take part in regular mental health checks and refrain from drinking alcohol”.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...onths-jail-killing-girlfriend-Reeva-Steenkamp

Uncle Arnold will probably say the same thing he did at the bail hearing, “Banning Oscar from having alcohol is not fair. It’s not relevant because he doesn’t drink alcohol at all”.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-uncle-wants-to-take-him-to-moz-1.1484657#.Vcx2MI0Vg4k

BIB

That proved to be a joke did it not :) . How gullible the courts were. For me that marked Uncle A as being far from honest. Possibly a family trait? Oscar is known for getting drunk and causing aggravation. I think there were times when he was in serious training he had to lay off it a bit but drink and OP are synonymous.
 
  • #526
I have revised and corrected the schematic showing the Bat/Gun/Kick scenario and added Oscar's Gun/Kick/Bat version for comparison. It's called GKB vs BGK and can be accessed via this link. Let me know if you spot any errors.

I'll add a proper key to the various symbols later but most are self-explanatory. Lighter shaded symbols mean the person didn't undertake the action but reported that they observed it.
 
  • #527
OP is likely to be fitted with an electronic tag when he is released from prison next week. He’s been recommended as an ‘ideal candidate’ for a new scheme aimed at saving money and making space in the overcrowded jails. The prison chiefs are still finalising the conditions of his release into ‘corrective supervision.
(Kelly Phelps said house arrest is harsh)

One of the issues to be resolved is where a tag might be fitted on him since they are typically fixed around the ankle.

As part of this, it is anticipated that he’ll have to carry out some sort of community service two days a month which could take a number of forms, including cleaning public spaces (Kelly Phelps said house arrest is harsh) - although the authorities may conclude this would be a poor use of his skills and high profile.

His grandmother said ‘there will be no parties’ to welcome him back to the fold. ‘What is there to celebrate?’ she added.

Nevertheless, aunt Lois and uncle Arnold have organised for the small garden cottage where he lived on their property prior to prison (complete with luxury mansion and large in-ground pool) to be freshly painted for his return next week. A quiet family reunion, where a trusted pastor will lead them in prayer, is planned for the night of his homecoming.
(Kelly Phelps said he'd been sentenced on the harsher end of the spectrum) and what could be tougher than this.

Not much of a party though because he’ll have to agree to abstain from drinking or taking drugs. He has a history of getting into fights at nightclubs and parties and random blood tests may be carried out by parole officers assigned to his supervision.

Yes, I know, it's the ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

:behindbar :behindbar :behindbar :behindbar :behindbar :behindbar :behindbar
 
  • #528
OP is likely to be fitted with an electronic tag when he is released from prison next week. He’s been recommended as an ‘ideal candidate’ for a new scheme aimed at saving money and making space in the overcrowded jails. The prison chiefs are still finalising the conditions of his release into ‘corrective supervision.
(Kelly Phelps said house arrest is harsh)

One of the issues to be resolved is where a tag might be fitted on him since they are typically fixed around the ankle.

As part of this, it is anticipated that he’ll have to carry out some sort of community service two days a month which could take a number of forms, including cleaning public spaces (Kelly Phelps said house arrest is harsh) - although the authorities may conclude this would be a poor use of his skills and high profile.

His grandmother said ‘there will be no parties’ to welcome him back to the fold. ‘What is there to celebrate?’ she added.

Nevertheless, aunt Lois and uncle Arnold have organised for the small garden cottage where he lived on their property prior to prison to (complete with luxury mansion and large in-ground pool) to be freshly painted for his return next week. A quiet family reunion, where a trusted pastor will lead them in prayer, is planned for the night of his homecoming.
(Kelly Phelps said he'd been sentenced on the harsher end of the spectrum) and what could be tougher than this.

Not much of a party though because he’ll have to agree to abstain from drinking or taking drugs. He has a history of getting into fights at nightclubs and parties and random blood tests may be carried out by parole officers assigned to his supervision.

Yes, I know, it's the ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

:behindbar :behindbar :behindbar :behindbar :behindbar :behindbar :behindbar

LOL JJ. Just think of all those guns Uncle and the rest of the family have for him to play with. Wasn't it calculated to be 55! As far as I can ascertain OP never went to church regularly but lived his pious existence 'estranged' from the house of God. I think that may change just so he can get out of the house, so to speak.

I think everything will be quiet to start with but I foresee him getting into trouble again. I think we will probably hear, sooner or later, that a bracelet could not fitted but hope I am wrong.
 
  • #529
LOL JJ. Just think of all those guns Uncle and the rest of the family have for him to play with. Wasn't it calculated to be 55! As far as I can ascertain OP never went to church regularly but lived his pious existence 'estranged' from the house of God. I think that may change just so he can get out of the house, so to speak.

I think everything will be quiet to start with but I foresee him getting into trouble again. I think we will probably hear, sooner or later, that a bracelet could not fitted but hope I am wrong.

You really do have to wonder why he lives in the small cottage when he could be ensconced in the luxurious mansion with Aimee and the rest of the family. Self-imposed exile ... or enforced exile for the family's protection.

No doubt the trusted pastor won't be required for home visits now. I'm sure OP would prefer to go to church now just like other non-special people do just so he can get out.

As for the guns, what I'd like to know is what sort of gun cabinet or safe Arnold has. After all, the precious rhino horns were stolen from his business walk-in safe. I can't believe a home gun safe would offer anywhere near that sort of security.

Re the bracelet, here's two links on ankle vs bracelet tags in Oz, and we'd be way ahead of SA in terms of security.

On ankles:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...k=65851b747be06aa891e34be142b9cb91-1439554069

On bracelets:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...k=65851b747be06aa891e34be142b9cb91-1439554319
 
  • #530
Re the bracelet, here's two links on ankle vs bracelet tags in Oz, and we'd be way ahead of SA in terms of security.

Re my previous post, I've just found out that "bracelet" is just another name for "anklet". In any event, it looks like they don't work all the time.
 
  • #531
For anyone with a spare 53 minutes or so, this was an interesting talk by Dominick Dunne to the US National Press Club. Kind of off topic but the dominant theme of his later life`s work - crime and punishment among the wealthy and famous - certainly has parallels to this case. I wish he had been around for this trial, as it may have interested him and he may have written about it. His book Justice is an interesting read for any who don`t know him, and his columns in Vanity Fair were always a highlight. I like too how even though he knew, mixed and mingled with the wealthy, and had no qualms about stating that their`s was his preferred environment, he had plenty of time for the mere mortals as well.

[video=youtube;OErgTBUfLQc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OErgTBUfLQc[/video]
 
  • #532
When asked by Masipa if Roux's timeline is common cause he said only the phone data is. This cannot be construed to mean calls for which there is no data e.g. Stipp's failed calls (it's one of the reasons I dropped them from my schematic but will use them in the accompanying dialogue).

Exactly.

What makes this thread frustrating to read at times is the assertions that Nel should have done things contrary to evidential and court procedure.

The call records were state exhibits. Stipp is a state witness.

Neither counsel challenged the contents of the exhibits.

The timing of Stipps call to security is thus common cause. As we know, Masipa changed around the timing of events Stipp witnessed to fit with Roux's timeline.

Clearly Roux's timeline is not common cause and never could be.

And of course Nel is "objecting" (sic) to the alleged timing because it is contrary to the State Witnesses own testimony

Finally, in terms of trial procedure, each side makes its closing arguments.

While there is room for submissions on particular points, it is not the case that State then picks the defence case to bits all over again.

Unfortunately all of these issues arise from Masipa's illogical approach to the evidence.

Masipa employs circular reasoning in deciding that Stipp must have observed events with wildly different timing because then everything fits.

By far the more obvious conclusion is that the timeline was simply incorrect.

Which, as I have said before, is exactly why Nel does not get into all of this speculation
 
  • #533
Further to my previous answer I've done some more research. Roux questions Stipp about the time of the 10111 call. 03:17 is what he wrote in his statement and agrees to this repeatedly in his cross examination. Not once is there any reference to his clock being fast that I can find but I would suggest that his point of reference can only have been the observed clock radio time or his wife told him. It's a mystery. His call sequence only works if it is based on the observed time, since his call to security is timed at 03:15:51. Nevertheless, Roux put this all to good use. I suspect had he asked Stipp, he'd have been put right. Why Nel didn't pick this up I don't know.

Probably because it is not relevant to guilt or innocence, and during the witness phase Roux had not yet invented his timeline. let alone shared it with Nel.

We know Stipp heard the shooting in the moments prior to 03:15:51. For him this is the second round of shooting.

Mr & Mrs N corroborate this, and corroborate that there is no shooting after 03:15:51.

So whatever Stipp was doing at 03:17 doesn't matter - unless you decide to reverse engineer his evidence

I believe the testimony of the fast clock is contained in the evidence of Mrs Stipp.
 
  • #534
I have revised and corrected the schematic showing the Bat/Gun/Kick scenario and added Oscar's Gun/Kick/Bat version for comparison. It's called GKB vs BGK and can be accessed via this link. Let me know if you spot any errors.

I'll add a proper key to the various symbols later but most are self-explanatory. Lighter shaded symbols mean the person didn't undertake the action but reported that they observed it.

You are the reason I keep checking back to this thread. Fantastic work!

I like your question - "where does OP's version come from?" - as you touch on the legal theatre that counsel are engaged in.

It's of interest that the iteration of OPs version to finally reach "The Timeline" leaves interesting artefacts.

The first point to note is that if the Timeline were real - then since the night of the shooting, OP has been in a position to give the exact sequence of events.

Yet notably for a man relying on self defence there is no police statement. Americans will not find this strange but for example in England, one might say there are key matters that, if OP wishes to later rely on, he ought to have explained contemporaneously. Sadly law reform in RSA is behind the UK on that.

Adverse inferences may be drawn in certain circumstances where before or on being charged, the accused:

fails to mention any fact which he later relies upon and which in the circumstances at the time the accused could reasonably be expected to mention;
fails to account on arrest for objects, substances or marks on his person, clothing or footwear, in his possession, or in the place where he is arrested;

So I don't find it particularly important he claimed she was an intruder immediately to witnesses, given the existence of such cases in the RSA media previously. Especially what he did not do was offer a contemporaneous explanation of how the "mistake" occurred. Especially what he did not do was ring the police.

The second point is that the guilt of OP on charges of murder turns either on there being no mistake, or him not acting within the rules of self defence.

As such (and hats off to Nel) it's the minutes leading up to the shooting that are most relevant, not what happens after.

Here is where you notice the genesis of OPs version from the bail version which correctly focusses on those moments.

During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains.

Notice the lack of detail in the statement as to number of bat strikes, and timings for events.

This is because the "timeline" won't be reverse engineered until after the witnesses make their statements and present in court (no trial by ambush!).

The curious thing about Roux's timeline is it conspicuously has nothing to do with the single issue at trial. Indeed based on his own timings, Roux will become super focussed on what happened after the shooting, and steer well clear of the freaking train wreck of OPs Cross examination on those moments leading up to the shooting.

How could Reeva have got in the toilet without OP knowing?

On this key fact - the defence significantly changes the version from being on the balcony to the fans business - all disproven by the crime scene photos. But the defence will simply get down in the weeds and not focus on this stuff.

I believe the genuine mistake of the witnesses (bats vs guns) simply opened a door for Roux at trial - as that mistake was revealed during discovery.

However Roux cannot create his timeline at this point - nor plead "but the timeline shows my client to be innocent!"

All along Roux faces a significant issue and that is how long should his timeline be, in order to match everything the witnesses heard.

Ideally Roux always needs the timeline to be quite short.

The buildup to the shooting obviously needs to be quick. And Reeva can't be left in the toilet too long.

But wait a minute.

The defence has always known (since discovery) what the actual timeline is.

So how come they were unsure whether Reeva was in the toilet for a couple of minutes, or five?

And how come Roux didn't know some of the key actions OP performed during this time?


Then we find further weirdness - why can't the defence identify when OP unlocked the bedroom door and deactivated the alarm?

After all - they did a complete re-enactment so those actions need to have occurred somewhere - and in a way which leaves no bloody prints.

So I tend to agree with your analysis.

The OPs first version - at the bail hearing - is from necessity.

The version at the opening of the trial is scarcely better - because Nel elects not to tell Roux what the State timeline is

So the final Official Timeline is essentially a big exercise in deflection combined with the need to deal with the screams.

However in his EIC - OP can't actually tell us correctly what the timeline is :thinking:
 
  • #535
Probably because it is not relevant to guilt or innocence, and during the witness phase Roux had not yet invented his timeline. let alone shared it with Nel.

We know Stipp heard the shooting in the moments prior to 03:15:51. For him this is the second round of shooting.

Mr & Mrs N corroborate this, and corroborate that there is no shooting after 03:15:51.

So whatever Stipp was doing at 03:17 doesn't matter - unless you decide to reverse engineer his evidence

I believe the testimony of the fast clock is contained in the evidence of Mrs Stipp.
That's correct, it is. Dr Stipp never makes mention of the time in his testimony. However in his statement he clearly does - approximately 3am for when he is woken by shots and 03:17 for the time of his call to 10111 - both highlighted by Roux. The latter time is then used by Roux as support for his 03:17 second sounds (effectively Dr Stipp agrees with this).

I believe Dr Stipp did an honest job in his statement but I suspect his references to the time came from his wife and he omitted to mention the fast clock. Indeed, he may have been oblivious of the fact.

My reference to Nel picking it up was in respect to this statement but I have now realised 1) that Mrs Stipp may not have mentioned the fast clock in her statement (she does mention 03:17) and 2) she gave her testimony after her husband, meaning that Nel may not have appreciated the clock being fast at the time he was taking Dr Stipp through his EIC.

Unfortunately Nel himself then reinforced the 03:17 time himself many times, only once referring to it as 'around 03:17', when he explains that it is the State's case that the second sounds were the gunshots which killed Reeva. This is clearly in contradiction to Dr Stipp's call time to security, which Nel also supports as being made after the second sounds.
 
  • #536
Seemingly Roux even gets mixed up about the real timeline

Here he is talking about OP coming in from the balcony - but as we all know - that was written out of the final script!

[video]https://youtu.be/hqp502_tS1M?t=34m28s[/video]

@34m28s
 
  • #537
That's correct, it is. Dr Stipp never makes mention of the time in his testimony. However in his statement he clearly does - approximately 3am for when he is woken by shots and 03:17 for the time of his call to 10111 - both highlighted by Roux. The latter time is then used by Roux as support for his 03:17 second sounds (effectively Dr Stipp agrees with this).

I believe Dr Stipp did an honest job in his statement but I suspect his references to the time came from his wife and he omitted to mention the fast clock. Indeed, he may have been oblivious of the fact.

My reference to Nel picking it up was in respect to this statement but I have now realised 1) that Mrs Stipp may not have mentioned the fast clock in her statement (she does mention 03:17) and 2) she gave her testimony after her husband, meaning that Nel may not have appreciated the clock being fast at the time he was taking Dr Stipp through his EIC.

Unfortunately Nel himself then reinforced the 03:17 time himself many times, only once referring to it as 'around 03:17', when he explains that it is the State's case that the second sounds were the gunshots which killed Reeva. This is clearly in contradiction to Dr Stipp's call time to security, which Nel also supports as being made after the second sounds.

I tend to agree it would have been better if Nel had not "coined" the 03:17 bangs.

He should have just said "the second set of bangs" or "the bangs before Stipps 03:15:51 call"

In Nel's defence of course - Roux had not invented the timeline at this point - much less disclosed it in court.

But I believe none of this would have made any difference due to the Judge ignoring the weight of circumstantial evidence.
 
  • #538
Mr Fossil

I just refreshed my memory on some key points from the J13 site from poster David Hartopp

These relate to Roux's main issue - how long did all this really take?

We know at 3.18:45 OP’s phone connects to the local tower. However according to OPs own testimony, after he breaks down the door, he needs to spend time holding her, dragging her out, dealing with her in the bathroom etc. So when did the cricket bats actually happen then?

According to defence HOA

191. 03:16:36 (duration 44 seconds): Mr Michael Nhlengethwa’s second call
to security
192. 03:17: Dr Stipp’s attempted call to 10111
193. 03:17: Second sounds
194. 03:19:03 (duration 24 seconds): Accused’s call to Johan Stander

So you can see that Roux nests the "second sounds" conveniently at 3.17 without how come 4 witnesses Mr & Mrs Nhlengethwa and Dr & Mrs Stipp don't hear them. So strangely he asks the Court to now value the evidence of Johnson over Stipp (who already heard 2 sets of shots by now), not to mention the defence witnesses.

LOL!

Then we also have this

184. Approximately any time between 03:12– 03:14: First sounds
185. Approximately 03:14/5: Accused shouting for help
186. Approximately any time between 03:12 – 03:17: Screaming

So "approximately" the time all this took ranges from 3.12 - 3.17.59 (i.e. 6 mins) to as little as 3.14-3.17 i.e 3 mins

But Roux is the guy with a timeline

The trouble is per Hortopp

The DT timeline fails to take account of OP’s testimony of the 15th of April in which he places himself inside the toilet “A COUPLE OF MINUTES (2) AFTER THE INCIDENT”.

Later changed to 5mins!

So as you can see Roux's big challenge was always how to explain away the Stipps hearing things at 3.02 with the likes of Johnson, Stipp and Mr N making calls at 3.16-3.17
 
  • #539
Mr Fossil - I think OPs own testimony validates your version/timeline and the State case.

He states he broke into the toilet within a couple of mins
He also states Reeva was showing signs of life, even though we know she stopped breathing within seconds

So he did indeed break into the toilet straight away because there is of course no need for him to hunt for Reeva etc

That's how come he saw her before she was dead.
 
  • #540
Probably because it is not relevant to guilt or innocence, and during the witness phase Roux had not yet invented his timeline. let alone shared it with Nel.

We know Stipp heard the shooting in the moments prior to 03:15:51. For him this is the second round of shooting.

Mr & Mrs N corroborate this, and corroborate that there is no shooting after 03:15:51.

So whatever Stipp was doing at 03:17 doesn't matter - unless you decide to reverse engineer his evidence

I believe the testimony of the fast clock is contained in the evidence of Mrs Stipp.

I think the problem with the above is Johnson's phone time. As I said in an earlier post, I was just re-watching Stipp's cross and what struck me was how Nel repeatedly placed the second bangs at 3.17 and yet was very cagey about how he would argue his case. I assume that's normal - why should he give his arguments at the start of the trial before all the evidence? - and yet he put the second bangs at 3.17. I wondered whether once he'd stated some part of his case, he was bound by it in some way, or whether if new evidence contradicts it he can just change his mind. Do you know?
 
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