Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #65~ the appeal~

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  • #81
In summary, having regard to the afore-going case-law and authority, it is respectfully
submitted that dolus eventualis is proved if the accused foresees a risk of death,
however slight, but nevertheless decides to take a chance and gambles with the life of the deceased reckless to the consequences.
---------------------

Well, 'however slight' seems to cover dolus eventualis, doesn't it?
 
  • #82
Wow & congratulations to WS'er @criminalMinds !!

I, for one, am "green with envy."

Copied/Pasted from Websleuth Bulletin at top of current page:

"The docu-series producers are looking for Websleuths member CriminalMinds because of her/his sleuthing skills
We don't want WS member CriminalMinds to miss out on a chance to be a part of something groundbreaking
If you can help please: Email"
 
  • #83
In summary, having regard to the afore-going case-law and authority, it is respectfully
submitted that dolus eventualis is proved if the accused foresees a risk of death,
however slight, but nevertheless decides to take a chance and gambles with the life of the deceased reckless to the consequences.
---------------------

Well, 'however slight' seems to cover dolus eventualis, doesn't it?

Hi Soozie and hi to all,

Soozie , is the docu ur quoting from the same one as previously released or is it a new update? ( It sounds v.familar to the one I have, but just want to double check that I haven't missed something)

Also to all, what channel/weblink are you using tomorrow for the broadcast feed?
TIA
I know KMaughan will be tweeting, J13 will be in Bloem and Mike Appel on ANN7, but which do people here recommend?
 
  • #84
Hi Soozie and hi to all,

Soozie , is the docu ur quoting from the same one as previously released or is it a new update? ( It sounds v.familar to the one I have, but just want to double check that I haven't missed something)

Also to all, what channel/weblink are you using tomorrow for the broadcast feed?
TIA
I know KMaughan will be tweeting, J13 will be in Bloem and Mike Appel on ANN7, but which do people here recommend?
Hi cotton. I think it's the same doc but uploaded again so we can pick over it. I just pulled a few things that jumped out at me.
 
  • #85

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  • #86
RSBM

Hi Soozie and hi to all,

Also to all, what channel/weblink are you using tomorrow for the broadcast feed?

TIA
I know KMaughan will be tweeting, J13 will be in Bloem and Mike Appel on ANN7, but which do people here recommend?

We'll do the same as we always do. People usually start logging in 1/2 hour or so before court is due to start. As soon as they find a link that's working, they put it here. What works for one doesn't always work for all, and it's quite common for feeds to drop out, so it's always a good idea to have a couple up your sleeve. Frequently there's a YouTube site ready to go, but you do have to keep looking. You'll find your links here so don't worry about it.
 
  • #87
I haven’t come across any definitive word of where the appeal will be broadcast.

Michael Appel tweeted: “There will be a live TV broadcast. @ANN7tv”. His tweet has subsequently been deleted, however this might be worth checking out: There’s a link to ‘LIVE tv’ at the top left of the page.
http://www.ann7.com/


ENCA stated: “the Pistorius appeal will be broadcast mostly live on their website but not all the time”. This is a little unclear, but here’s a link to their YouTube page where most of the trial was broadcast live:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI3RT5PGmdi1KVp9FG_CneA


SABC has covered the trial extensively, so this might be worth a look too:
https://www.youtube.com/user/sabcdigitalnews


Hopefully, as Judge Judi says, more links will appear nearer the event.
 
  • #88
There may be trouble ahead......:scared:

http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Oscar-Pistorius-What-is-the-motive-behind-the-States-Appeal-20151102

Oscar Pistorius : What is the motive behind the States Appeal?
The States appeal will be heard by the SCA on Nov 3rd but what should really be considered is whether the appeal should be allowed in the first place and what exactly is the motive behinds the States appeal. The States argument is that Oscar was acquitted of murder therefore the conviction of Culpable Homicide should not be considered a competent verdict.
In suggesting that CH is not a competent verdict what Nel is also doing is effectively attempting to determine that CH can never be a competent verdict for murder. This therefore leaves the door open for any future CH verdicts to be appealed by the State. The State in attempting to overcome the ‘Seekoei Hurdle’ only makes reference to the term acquittal. However in the Seekoei judgement it goes further to define what is meant by ‘acquittal.

“In re S v Seekoei held that by 'acquittal' in section 322 (4) is meant a finding whereby the accused is set free completely. Where someone stands trial on a charge and is then convicted of an offence whereof he, according to the provisions of the Act, could be convicted, it cannot be said that there was an “acquittal” (of the offence charged) as intended. “What however the State has never mentioned either in their appeal papers or in the interviews or commentary on the case is what the legal interpretation of an acquittal is. The State abysmally omits to clarify the definition of the term ‘acquittal’ as determined in Seekoei.

Cont/d
 
  • #89
RSBM

There may be trouble ahead......:scared:

http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Oscar-Pistorius-What-is-the-motive-behind-the-States-Appeal-20151102

Oscar Pistorius : What is the motive behind the States Appeal?

It's important to bear in mind that this article was written by a member of the public resident in the UK. She is not a member of the legal fraternity but is an Oscar Pistorius Supporter on Facebook. There have been articles written at every stage of the trial by similarly minded people.
 
  • #90
RSBM



It's important to bear in mind that this article was written by a member of the public resident in the UK. She is not a member of the legal fraternity but is an Oscar Pistorius Supporter on Facebook. There have been articles written at every stage of the trial by similarly minded people.

Thanks JJ I am aware of who she is. I posted about her recently. However, I did feel she may have looked into the legal side. You are much more aware of the legal possibilities of the story. Are you saying she is completely wrong in her interpretation of the situation? I thought it looked as though legal opinion may have been discussed with somebody more knowledgeable than a mere bystander. Maybe you could point out the legal mistakes in the piece for me to better understand.
 
  • #91
Thanks JJ I am aware of who she is. I posted about her recently. However, I did feel she may have looked into the legal side. You are much more aware of the legal possibilities of the story. Are you saying she is completely wrong in her interpretation of the situation? I thought it looked as though legal opinion may have been discussed with somebody more knowledgeable than a mere bystander. Maybe you could point out the legal mistakes in the piece for me to better understand.

If extremely experienced members of the legal profession in SA aren't prepared to say what the outcome of this appeal will be, that shows how complex an issue this is. I wouldn't presume to give an opinion on this matter. As she's just another member of the public, even if she did speak to someone with legal knowledge, how could that person know more than practising lawyers in SA who are familiar with Sekoei?
 
  • #92
RSBM



We'll do the same as we always do. People usually start logging in 1/2 hour or so before court is due to start. As soon as they find a link that's working, they put it here. What works for one doesn't always work for all, and it's quite common for feeds to drop out, so it's always a good idea to have a couple up your sleeve. Frequently there's a YouTube site ready to go, but you do have to keep looking. You'll find your links here so don't worry about it.

JJ, what would half an hour log in time before court be here in AEST? Daylight saving?
 
  • #93
If extremely experienced members of the legal profession in SA aren't prepared to say what the outcome of this appeal will be, that shows how complex an issue this is. I wouldn't presume to give an opinion on this matter. As she's just another member of the public, even if she did speak to someone with legal knowledge, how could that person know more than practising lawyers in SA who are familiar with Sekoei?


Apologies, I must have misinterpreted your post as I thought you were downgrading her opinion because she was just another OP supporter with invalid opinions as she had no legal knowledge. I would not venture an opinion that she was right. I do occasionally post what the Pistorians say because it is always food for thought.
 
  • #94
JJ, what would half an hour log in time before court be here in AEST? Daylight saving?

The press and gallery have been asked to be seated by 9:45am SA time, so I imagine it will be a 10:00am start. I'd be logging in here at about 6:30pm (Sydney time).

Try and have a couple of feeds going so if one drops out you can just move to the next (I've had terrible problems in the past). Yes, daylight saving. The trial never started on time, but I'd like to think the SCA is better prepared.

This will be very special to see an appeal at the SCA. I'm not sure if one has been broadcast live internationally before.

One :bed: to go.
 
  • #95
Thanks JJ. SA is 2 hours ahead of the UK following the clocks going back. That means I'll be present and waiting at 7.30am!
 
  • #96
JJ, what would half an hour log in time before court be here in AEST? Daylight saving?

For US eastern folks etc ...

Right now with all the time changes it is 7 hours difference EASTERN US

. They start at 9:45 am .. everyone seated.. and then at 10 am begin . Soooo... Go to bed and set your alarm for tonight so up at 2:45 am to login from the East Coast time zone in the United States to give yourself 15 minutes to figure out which links work ;)

:moo:
 
  • #97
[video=twitter;661158326236004352]https://twitter.com/barrybateman/status/661158326236004352[/video]



 
  • #98
Eyewitness News ‏@ewnupdates
#OscarPistorius To watch tomorrow's proceedings in the SCA live visit EWN's blog from 9am http://bit.ly/1OiHhLg
 
  • #99
Just belatedly picking up on some points made by Interested Bystander and Cottonweaver on the previous thread - IMO, it's a little disappointing that there doesn't seem to be any reference in the State's Heads to Masipa's incorrect reliance on GAD or to her misleading statement that it was agreed that OP was suffering from it.

Masipa clearly relied on Merryll Vorster's evidence that OP was suffering from GAD, despite the fact that Weskoppies, which was effectively the Court-appointed joint expert, did not support this diagnosis:

"This court also accepts that a person with an anxiety disorder as described by Dr Vorster, would get anxious very easily, especially when he is faced with danger. It is also understandable, that a person with a disability such as that of the accused would certainly feel vulnerable, when faced with danger".

Arguably, her election to prefer Vorster's somewhat discredited evidence to that of the joint expert is an error of law, but, in any case, it is well established that a finding of fact can be, and, indeed, should be, reversed by the Appellate Court if it is 'plainly wrong'.

And, moreover, Masipa's mistake goes right to the crux of her judgement: it enables her to be lenient by finding that it is reasonably possibly true that OP overreacted to the noises he heard, reasonably possibly true that he jumped to the conclusion that there was an intruder, and reasonably possibly true that he shot in panic and not from an intention to kill/kill unlawfully. It also adds legitimacy to her finding that he did not foresee the possibility of killing the person behind the door, whereas a person not suffering from an anxiety disorder obviously would have done.

I'm not sure why the State hasn't made more of this mistake, as, once it can be demonstrated that the trial judge has made a clear and significant error in her understanding of the evidence, the interests of justice demand that the Appellate Court correct this.

In my opinion, it may be a dangerous strategy to focus on error of law in the application of the principles of DE to the agreed facts, to the exclusion of challenging a glaring error central to the Trial judge's assessment of the killer's state of mind. What if the Appellate Court plays it safe and rules that it doesn't have jurisdiction on the basis that the State is seeking to challenge findings of fact by dressing them up as errors of law?

In any case, it wouldn't have hurt to bring up an obvious misunderstanding on the part of the Trial Judge, as this reflects on her general level of competence and on the integrity of her verdict, making it harder for the Supreme Court to take the safe option.

Fingers crossed that the SCA is on the ball.
 
  • #100
The Seekoei hurdle - as brought up by IB

I thought I'd got my head around this when I was deep into reading the Appeals Heads and responses - it's so many weeks ago, way back on last thread- so it doesn't stick when one has zero legal knowledge LOL!

Anyway I am going to look through my old notes to see what I can find
First off from a command Find search(!) i only come to State's heads possibly cause I got very lazy about it's tricky spelling , I will look deeper later.

Just for now it's still worth pasting up their passage in the Heads. Basically they are saying it's not a hurdle because

We acknowledge that S v Seekoei 1982 (3) SA 97 (A) (“Seekoei”) may be interpreted to prohibit the State from reserving a question of law in a case where there was a conviction on a competent verdict.
1. We respectfully submit that in casu the Court a quo did not follow Seekoei’s interpretation that the charge of murder is a single charge of which various convictions are possible.3 The Court a quo found the accused not guilty and discharged him on the charge of murder.
2. We respectfully argue that competent verdicts require a Court to read into a charge several alternative charges. Section 258 of the Criminal Procedure Act No 51 of 1977 (“the Act”) merely excludes the requirement that the State has to include a long list of alternative charges in the indictment.
3.We respectfully argue that it would be absurd to find that if the Respondent had charged the accused with murder and with culpable homicide as an alternative count, a reservation of a question of law would be possible but following a conviction on a competent verdict of culpable homicide then prohibits such.
The Court in Seekoei specifically left the question open as to a possible conviction on an alternative count.
4. Unlike the accepted procedure where a Court first decides the question of the accused’s guilt on the main count before it focuses on the competent verdicts, it is conceivable that on the Seekoei definition the Court may convict an accused on a lesser charge, even if the more serious charge was proven.
5. For a Court not to convict on the proven main count would be wrong in law. If the Court holds the opinion that the circumstances warrant leniency, then the leniency may be applied with regard to sentence but not by convicting on a
lesser count.

We respectfully argue that it would be absurd to find that if the Respondent had charged the accused with murder and with culpable homicide as an alternative count, a reservation of a
question of law would be possible but following a conviction on a competent verdict of culpable homicide then prohibits such.
The Court in Seekoei specifically left the question open as to a possible conviction on an alternative count."

That's enough verbiage for one post :)
 
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