PA PA - Kortne Ciera Stouffer, 21, Palmyra, 29 July 2012 - #4

[looks like rain]

LE's actions or lack thereof reek of a confidential informant gone missing scenario. Could explain some of Kortne's strange association with lowlifes, criminals, and losers. Did they lose her or did she lose them? The more I go back and review the details we know and the actions of LE, the more the "lost CI" theory makes sense.

I think that this could possibly be the case also. I remember reading an article somewhere (don't remember where) but it told of a young twenty something girl that the cops somehow lost track of and she ended up being killed by the people she was tracking.

 

[jcinquisitive]

Hi, JCInquisitive. The police aren't a public news service; they release information when it becomes useful to do so. They would be irresponsible if they acted as if they were a media service and indeed releasing the evidence and details that you claim they are hoarding might make more difficult to procure a conviction.

At this point, it seems logical to assume that law enforcement regards Kortne's abduction as originating outside the apartment building. Beyond that point, there is either a wall or investigation of leads at a rudimentary stage.

In your opinion do you think they have an obligation to the community to say something, anything, regarding what they think about the community's safety? Or, do you think that's not a responsibility of LE after an unusual crime like this happens in a very safe town?

 

[Chanler]

In your opinion do you think they have an obligation to the community to say something, anything, regarding what they think about the community's safety? Or, do you think that's not a responsibility of LE after an unusual crime like this happens in a very safe town?

What valuable counsel can law enforcement dispense about an unsolved crime that any intelligent citizen would not himself or herself perceive? If the body is not found and a crime had not been witnessed, how can law enforcement comment about its probable special relevance to public safety? People who live in the town are not children who need to be told by "adult" law enforcement to be vigilant.

 

[jcinquisitive]

What valuable counsel can law enforcement dispense about an unsolved crime that any intelligent citizen would not himself or herself perceive? If the body is not found and a crime had not been witnessed, how can law enforcement comment about its probable special relevance to public safety? People who live in the town are not children who need to be told by "adult" law enforcement to be vigilant.

I dont agree i think they need to say something...but maybe this is why the community feels the way they do

 

[aszhsh]

Hi, JCInquisitive. The police aren't a public news service; they release information when it becomes useful to do so. They would be irresponsible if they acted as if they were a media service and indeed releasing the evidence and details that you claim they are hoarding might make more difficult to procure a conviction.

At this point, it seems logical to assume that law enforcement regards Kortne's abduction as originating outside the apartment building. Beyond that point, there is either a wall or investigation of leads at a rudimentary stage.

We are not asking LE to act as a public news service. Only to respect the public which they are sworn to serve and protect (and by the way the same public who funds LE with their tax dollars) and release some information and/or updates. I agree that they may have difficultly procuring a conviction, due to the fact that they have yet to name a POI or make an arrest. If they had released information and reached out to the public early on they may have received valuable information that could help their investigation. LE response to reporters is simply that they have nothing to report. The public has every right to question the way LE is handling this case or any case. Why would we just blindly accept that all is good. LE is not above the law. Acting like they are will only create a problem. I am not suggesting they did anything wrong only that the public has a right to question what LE is doing. Legally they may not need to report to the public. But stop and think how they are funded. The citizens do have a say on LE in their area. LE readily admits they rely heavily on public tips to solve cases. To get tips you need to release info and get the case in the news.

I live and work in the area. If there is an increased risk to women LE should be informing the public (even though we are adults). Most of the "adults" in this area have heard little or nothing on this case. Legally they may not have to but if another girl goes missing I would not want to be their public releations officers.

The reason we post on this site is because we hope and prey KS is found soon!!

 

[looks like rain]

We are not asking LE to act as a public news service. Only to respect the public which they are sworn to serve and protect (and by the way the same public who funds LE with their tax dollars) and release some information and/or updates. I agree that they may have difficultly procuring a conviction, due to the fact that they have yet to name a POI or make an arrest. If they had released information and reached out to the public early on they may have received valuable information that could help their investigation. LE response to reporters is simply that they have nothing to report. The public has every right to question the way LE is handling this case or any case. Why would we just blindly accept that all is good. LE is not above the law. Acting like they are will only create a problem. I am not suggesting they did anything wrong only that the public has a right to question what LE is doing. Legally they may not need to report to the public. But stop and think how they are funded. The citizens do have a say on LE in their area. LE readily admits they rely heavily on public tips to solve cases. To get tips you need to release info and get the case in the news.

I live and work in the area. If there is an increased risk to women LE should be informing the public (even though we are adults). Most of the "adults" in this area have heard little or nothing on this case. Legally they may not have to but if another girl goes missing I would not want to be their public releations officers.

The reason we post on this site is because we hope and prey KS is found soon!!

Ditto!

 

[Chanler]

We are not asking LE to act as a public news service. Only to respect the public which they are sworn to serve and protect (and by the way the same public who funds LE with their tax dollars) and release some information and/or updates. I agree that they may have difficultly procuring a conviction, due to the fact that they have yet to name a POI or make an arrest. If they had released information and reached out to the public early on they may have received valuable information that could help their investigation. LE response to reporters is simply that they have nothing to report. The public has every right to question the way LE is handling this case or any case. Why would we just blindly accept that all is good. LE is not above the law. Acting like they are will only create a problem. I am not suggesting they did anything wrong only that the public has a right to question what LE is doing. Legally they may not need to report to the public. But stop and think how they are funded. The citizens do have a say on LE in their area. LE readily admits they rely heavily on public tips to solve cases. To get tips you need to release info and get the case in the news.

I live and work in the area. If there is an increased risk to women LE should be informing the public (even though we are adults). Most of the "adults" in this area have heard little or nothing on this case. Legally they may not have to but if another girl goes missing I would not want to be their public releations officers.

The reason we post on this site is because we hope and prey KS is found soon!!

The case is being investigated by the local police, the county police, the county district attorney's office, the state police, and other local agencies. There is coordination between these agencies, which is another reason for not prematurely releasing information.

All these agencies have the right to release information only as they determine that it will useful for the investigation in process. To say that they are acting "above the law" by not releasing newsworthy tidbits is simply untrue.

To get tips, they do not have to release information. The Palmyra police chief has said that the police are processing tips that they have received.

As for the possibility of an increased risk to women: If a woman is murdered or kidnapped in the area (as unfortunately seems likely in this case), one assumes that it would be prudent to assume that there is an increased risk.

 

[jcinquisitive]

The case is being investigated by the local police, the county police, the county district attorney's office, the state police, and other local agencies. There is coordination between these agencies, which is another reason for not prematurely releasing information.

All these agencies have the right to release information only as they determine that it will useful for the investigation in process. To say that they are acting "above the law" by not releasing newsworthy tidbits is simply untrue.

To get tips, they do not have to release information. The Palmyra police chief has said that the police are processing tips that they have received.

As for the possibility of an increased risk to women: If a woman is murdered or kidnapped in the area (as unfortunately seems likely in this case), one assumes that it would be prudent to assume that there is an increased risk.

DISAGREE! No one should have to "assume" anything about this case. If there is a risk out there, LE should make their community aware. You say one ASSUMES it would be prudent to assume there is an increased risk, but there are women and young girls of less intelligent...I myself know of several women who are of decreased mental capability who although are living on their own, are mentally handicapped to some degree. And that is ASIDE from the fact that LE SHOULD issue a statement if there is a risk of any sort.
DISAGREE also that the police do not have to release information to get tips....they may get some, but getting tips is a give and take operation.....people need memories jogged, people need to have their memories drawn to a certain car or clothing, people need to clued in so that if someone is blabbing about something they can pick up something odd.

 

[Chanler]

DISAGREE! No one should have to "assume" anything about this case. If there is a risk out there, LE should make their community aware. You say one ASSUMES it would be prudent to assume there is an increased risk, but there are women and young girls of less intelligent...I myself know of several women who are of decreased mental capability who although are living on their own, are mentally handicapped to some degree. And that is ASIDE from the fact that LE SHOULD issue a statement if there is a risk of any sort.
DISAGREE also that the police do not have to release information to get tips....they may get some, but getting tips is a give and take operation.....people need memories jogged, people need to have their memories drawn to a certain car or clothing, people need to clued in so that if someone is blabbing about something they can pick up something odd.

Obviously, there is more risk for men and women in areas where crimes have recently occurred. This is a logical assumption that reasonable adults would make. I find it baffling that you somehow imagine that law enforcement has some unique, particular knowledge at this stage of the investigation that would somehow convince all those local women of "decreased mental capability" who are "mentally handicapped to some degree" to be more careful. Frankly, I think that they might be better served by people like you who actually know them.

Actually, police departments in likely homicide cases are typically deluged by unsolicited tips, sometimes requiring more than 10,000 hours of investigation. This will not be a slam-dunk CSI or Murder She Wrote case: Kortne did not disappear at an hour or location where there would likely be witnesses to "a certain car or clothing" and it is unlikely that any rapist/killer would be "blabbing" about his deeds at this stage. (Or, if he did so, that it would not be noticed unless law enforcement "adults" told listeners to pay attention.)

 

[SurfieTX]

Obviously, there is more risk for men and women in areas where crimes have recently occurred. This is a logical assumption that reasonable adults would make. I find it baffling that you somehow imagine that law enforcement has some unique, particular knowledge at this stage of the investigation that would somehow convince all those local women of "decreased mental capability" who are "mentally handicapped to some degree" to be more careful. Frankly, I think that they might be better served by people like you who actually know them.

Actually, police departments in likely homicide cases are typically deluged by unsolicited tips, sometimes requiring more than 10,000 hours of investigation. This will not be a slam-dunk CSI or Murder She Wrote case: Kortne did not disappear at an hour or location where there would likely be witnesses to "a certain car or clothing" and it is unlikely that any rapist/killer would be "blabbing" about his deeds at this stage. (Or, if he did so, that it would not be noticed unless law enforcement "adults" told listeners to pay attention.)

I must politely disagree. It is rare, rare, rare that the last contact with a missing person is by LE. Add into that, there was a SECOND visit by LE where "no one answered the door" - not one door, TWO doors (Kortne and her neighbor).

I agree, the community should be told what is going on with the investigation. A person does not go 'poof' given these circumstances. Yes, in others, I can give the timeline and issues a bit more weight, but here? No, not so much.

 

[reedus23]

The case is being investigated by the local police, the county police, the county district attorney's office, the state police, and other local agencies. There is coordination between these agencies, which is another reason for not prematurely releasing information.

All these agencies have the right to release information only as they determine that it will useful for the investigation in process. To say that they are acting "above the law" by not releasing newsworthy tidbits is simply untrue.

To get tips, they do not have to release information. The Palmyra police chief has said that the police are processing tips that they have received.

As for the possibility of an increased risk to women: If a woman is murdered or kidnapped in the area (as unfortunately seems likely in this case), one assumes that it would be prudent to assume that there is an increased risk.

I completely understand what you're saying. If they're not giving it to the public, I would hope they are at least then giving the family sufficient reassurances that the investigation is still moving forward. If it's stalled out, I think it's a disservice to Kortne and her family to not keep the public informed and possibly get more in the form of assistance from the public. For me, it's not a question of whether they have a legal obligation but more of whether or not it truly is the best approach.

 

[cluciano63]

I completely understand what you're saying. If they're not giving it to the public, I would hope they are at least then giving the family sufficient reassurances that the investigation is still moving forward. If it's stalled out, I think it's a disservice to Kortne and her family to not keep the public informed and possibly get more in the form of assistance from the public. For me, it's not a question of whether they have a legal obligation but more of whether or not it truly is the best approach.

By reading her mom's FB page, I would say that the family is not being given any info or updates. She sounds helpless.

I can see LE being quiet if they have a suspect but not proof, I guess. But for me, the whole issue here revolves around the police being the last, or next to last, to see Kortne, AND being so quiet. It may not mean anything, but it sure sends out weird signals.

 

[Chanler]

I must politely disagree. It is rare, rare, rare that the last contact with a missing person is by LE. Add into that, there was a SECOND visit by LE where "no one answered the door" - not one door, TWO doors (Kortne and her neighbor).

I agree, the community should be told what is going on with the investigation. A person does not go 'poof' given these circumstances. Yes, in others, I can give the timeline and issues a bit more weight, but here? No, not so much.

First of all, the last known contact with Kortne was not by the police, an assertion I never made or would have made. The man who stayed the night and perhaps other people in the building had contact with her after the police left. So your "rare, rare, rare" is really not relevant to this situation.

And people do indeed disappear without innocent witnesses. If that were not true, there would be thousands of more solved cases on the books. I live in lower Manhattan. Several years ago, a prostitute was murdered two blocks from my apartment. Until the killer spontaneously came to the police station to confess last year, there had been no witnesses with relevant information about her disappearance. What happened in "The City That Never Sleeps" can certainly happen in a sleepy small town.

<modsnip>

 

[aszhsh]

All these agencies have the right to release information only as they determine that it will useful for the investigation in process. To say that they are acting "above the law" by not releasing newsworthy tidbits is simply untrue.

To get tips, they do not have to release information. The Palmyra police chief has said that the police are processing tips that they have received.

As for the possibility of an increased risk to women: If a woman is murdered or kidnapped in the area (as unfortunately seems likely in this case), one assumes that it would be prudent to assume that there is an increased risk.

I did not say that LE was "acting above the law". I simply stated that the public has every right to question the way LE handles this case or any case. And went on to say that LE is not above the law and to act like they are will only create a problem. Lastly I clearly stated I am not suggesting they did anything wrong, only that the public has a right to question what LE is doing.

I believe the point we are trying to make is we don't know what happened to KS. But a women being raped, kidnapped or murdered in this area is not common. It is not something that happens often in this low crime, rural, farmland community. Many leave their doors unlocked and freely walk after dark without worry. You do not live in this area and so I don't blame you for not comprehending that.

However, when something does happen, the news coverage and communication from LE to the public is much greater than in KS case. Personnaly, I believe that statement would be true in most areas (not just here). Locals who live intown are aware of the KS case (due to locals talking and posters etc). Students at the local college may or may not be aware. Many people living outside town (or a neighboring town) are unaware of this case. Do you honestly think LE should not want to protect the very citizens they work for and recieve their income and benefits from. LE may very well have good reason to think there is not an increased risk to the citizens. They may be working day and night to solve this case. I am not against LE. I honestly believe most work very hard to serve and protect the community and do a great job. I am bothered however by their lack of updates to the public. They may have good reason for this. I keep waiting for them to make an arrest and their silence suddenly make sense. That hasn't happened. It is hard to comprehend that they would not want to release "some" information in order to try and receive some credible tips. Between 4-7 am there are people who are out and may have seen something (plus there are many who peek out their windows when something alerts them). But without proper news and information they may not put together that what they saw/heard/know is at all relevant to this case. Frankly, they may not know about KS case.

WE care about what happened to KS. Most of us do not even know her...but we still want to see her found and brought home to her family. Don't take offense or make our desire to keep this case in the public eye something negative. We live in America, which gives us the right to question or express concerns (respectfully and peacefully)...even about our local LE.

 

[Chanler]

I did not say that LE was "acting above the law". I simply stated that the public has every right to question the way LE handles this case or any case. And went on to say that LE is not above the law and to act like they are will only create a problem. Lastly I clearly stated I am not suggesting they did anything wrong, only that the public has a right to question what LE is doing.

I believe the point we are trying to make is we don't know what happened to KS. But a women being raped, kidnapped or murdered in this area is not common. It is not something that happens often in this low crime, rural, farmland community. Many leave their doors unlocked and freely walk after dark without worry. You do not live in this area and so I don't blame you for not comprehending that.

However, when something does happen, the news coverage and communication from LE to the public is much greater than in KS case. Personnaly, I believe that statement would be true in most areas (not just here). Locals who live intown are aware of the KS case (due to locals talking and posters etc). Students at the local college may or may not be aware. Many people living outside town (or a neighboring town) are unaware of this case. Do you honestly think LE should not want to protect the very citizens they work for and recieve their income and benefits from. LE may very well have good reason to think there is not an increased risk to the citizens. They may be working day and night to solve this case. I am not against LE. I honestly believe most work very hard to serve and protect the community and do a great job. I am bothered however by their lack of updates to the public. They may have good reason for this. I keep waiting for them to make an arrest and their silence suddenly make sense. That hasn't happened. It is hard to comprehend that they would not want to release "some" information in order to try and receive some credible tips. Between 4-7 am there are people who are out and may have seen something (plus there are many who peek out their windows when something alerts them). But without proper news and information they may not put together that what they saw/heard/know is at all relevant to this case. Frankly, they may not know about KS case.

WE care about what happened to KS. Most of us do not even know her...but we still want to see her found and brought home to her family. Don't take offense or make our desire to keep this case in the public eye something negative. We live in America, which gives us the right to question or express concerns (respectfully and peacefully)...even about our local LE.

Thanks for your thoughtful and temperate note. No one is questioning the right of citizens to complain; obviously you and others are doing it unimpeded in this and other forums.

At the early stages of the case, when the disappearance was receiving the coverage that attracted many of us, people who had possibly witnessed something in those early morning hours could have come forward and their information would have doubtless been more detailed and accurate than that of men or women who would come forward now. (Studies show that even in an indelible mammoth event like September 11th, memories faded and became inaccurate very quickly.)

My argument is threefold:
1. I think that it is unlikely that valuable, accurate primary testimony by innocent witnesses about that morning outside the house is unlikely to emerge at this stage.
2. I think that when and if the next stage solidifies (thanks to tips and leads), law enforcement might benefit from information about people or locales of interest.
3. I think that law enforcement is not the media; it is a source for local media. It is that media that should be presently tapped for widening interest in the case.

 

[ktgirl]

Where are you Kortne?
Have any more searches been done?

 

[looks like rain]

I just want Kortne to be found. I think that is our ultimate goal here. The silence is very frustrating! We need help with this case somehow!

 

[aszhsh]

Thanks for your thoughtful and temperate note. No one is questioning the right of citizens to complain; obviously you and others are doing it unimpeded in this and other forums.

At the early stages of the case, when the disappearance was receiving the coverage that attracted many of us, people who had possibly witnessed something in those early morning hours could have come forward and their information would have doubtless been more detailed and accurate than that of men or women who would come forward now. (Studies show that even in an indelible mammoth event like September 11th, memories faded and became inaccurate very quickly.)

My argument is threefold:
1. I think that it is unlikely that valuable, accurate primary testimony by innocent witnesses about that morning outside the house is unlikely to emerge at this stage.
2. I think that when and if the next stage solidifies (thanks to tips and leads), law enforcement might benefit from information about people or locales of interest.
3. I think that law enforcement is not the media; it is a source for local media. It is that media that should be presently tapped for widening interest in the case.

I agree that the most valuable information/leads would of come from the public early on in the investigation. But honestly, then there was little news also. Memories certainly do fade. I live and work close to KS apt. I heard nothing of this case until approx 2 weeks later when I picked up a flyer at the store. I immediately thought I had seen her recently (I do not know her or her family) but it took a few days to figure out where and when. So that definitely agrees with your point. When I post a concern about LE not releaseing info/updates I honestly do try to also state that they may be doing this for a good reason. The local media should be trying to get info/updates from LE...I can't honestly think of a reason they are not.

Thank you for your clarification and read my next post and feel free to comment. It is always good to get a different perspective on things. Who knows, it might lead us in the right direction.

 

[aszhsh]

This seems odd to me. I believe the law states that anyone under the legal age to consume alcoholic beverage shall be sited in the below mentioned situation. I personally know of minors recently cited locally who were not drinking but still breaking the law by just being at the party. I also question why the boys parents were contacted. Both of the boys mentioned in this article are 18 or older. Can they even legally notify parents if the person is of age? Does it really take a month to determine if alcohol was in their system? Were charges really going to be filed or just notify their parents. <modsnip> I can not confirm that to be true. If only KS and 2 others were drinking and a total of 7 at the party seems like it would not of been out of control. Yet the police were called? And that is what triggered BF to be arrested on parole violation leaving KS alone (she thought for a long time as per her father). LE states that KS was the only one of legal age at the residence when they arrived. Bf is underage also. Yet LE states it is unclear who furnished the minors with alcohol??? Its KS apt and she was the only one of age?? Am I missing something here?

August 29, 2012 (wednesday)

<modnsip>

Jasinski declined to identify who called police about the underage drinking.

As a result of that first call, police have now charged two men with underage drinking. The citations were filed Wednesday with District Judge Carl Garver's office in Palmyra.

Cited were Michael Burdge, 19, of 325 E. Main St., Palmyra, and Corey Bowman, 18, of 1025 N. Forge Road, North Londonderry Township.

Jasinski said that when police arrived, there were seven people, including Stouffer, in the apartment.

"Kortne was the only one who was 21 years or over," he said.

Jasinski said that Burke and Bowman were the only two of the six underage people at the party who tested positive for alcohol. No other underage drinking citations are expected to be filed, he said.
<modsnip>

http://www.ldnews.com/announcements/ci_21427918/police-release-new-info-missing-woman-case

 

[reedus23]

This seems odd to me. I believe the law states that anyone under the legal age to consume alcoholic beverage shall be sited in the below mentioned situation. I personally know of minors recently cited locally who were not drinking but still breaking the law by just being at the party. I also question why the boys parents were contacted. Both of the boys mentioned in this article are 18 or older. Can they even legally notify parents if the person is of age? Does it really take a month to determine if alcohol was in their system? Were charges really going to be filed or just notify their parents. <modsnip> I can not confirm that to be true. If only KS and 2 others were drinking and a total of 7 at the party seems like it would not of been out of control. Yet the police were called? And that is what triggered BF to be arrested on parole violation leaving KS alone (she thought for a long time as per her father). LE states that KS was the only one of legal age at the residence when they arrived. Bf is underage also. Yet LE states it is unclear who furnished the minors with alcohol??? Its KS apt and she was the only one of age?? Am I missing something here?

August 29, 2012 (wednesday)

<modnsip>

Jasinski declined to identify who called police about the underage drinking.

As a result of that first call, police have now charged two men with underage drinking. The citations were filed Wednesday with District Judge Carl Garver's office in Palmyra.

Cited were Michael Burdge, 19, of 325 E. Main St., Palmyra, and Corey Bowman, 18, of 1025 N. Forge Road, North Londonderry Township.

Jasinski said that when police arrived, there were seven people, including Stouffer, in the apartment.

"Kortne was the only one who was 21 years or over," he said.

Jasinski said that Burke and Bowman were the only two of the six underage people at the party who tested positive for alcohol. No other underage drinking citations are expected to be filed, he said.
<modsnip>

http://www.ldnews.com/announcements/ci_21427918/police-release-new-info-missing-woman-case

I'm assuming they're saying someone else could have gotten the alcohol for the minors and they brought it with them to Kortne's or that maybe they used fake ID's to buy the alcohol themselves. I would have to research PA law and/or ordinances to determine why a kid can be cited if he hasn't consumed. Typically, they can be cited for POSSESSION alone, whether it's consumed or not. I don't know if that's what happened in the other instance you are talking about.

I can only speculate about the other things. Many times LE will pose an option to a person in such a way as that person doesn't know it's actually just an option and they can say no, so the person goes along with it. I guess LE figures if the person doesn't know the law and agrees to go along with it, great. So I could see that being the situation "Do you want to call your parents or do you want me to?" without ever telling them that it's an option to not call the parents at all. It could be that LE told them, we can take you to the police station, arrest you and then issue a citation, or you can call your parents. I don't know why it would take so long. Typically, like I said, its usually a possession charge, so there are no tests to wait on. Either they possessed it or they didn't. My personal take on it is that the cop was originally trying to be nice and wasn't going to write the kids up at all if they called their parents and went home but after Kortne went missing they went into CYA mode and issued the citations for fear it would look bad if they didn't. Just my thoughts and speculation.