PA PA - Kortne Ciera Stouffer, 21, Palmyra, 29 July 2012 - #5

[Meems]

Going with the theory that TS disappeared KS he would have most likely acted immediately. Going with the theory that CP disappeared KS he may have layed low until later the next day. He could have left knowing she was deceased but had anyone found her in the interim he could have said he just thought she was sleeping when he left. Thinking about the possibility of her toxicology reports coming back with a drug that could be linked to him .. He enlisted help of someone and disposed of her when the coast was clear. He simply could have rolled the dice that he could get back to dispose of her before anyone else found her.

 

[BloodHoundSleuther]

Gotcha. I understand your theory. I have never put forth a theory here and I don't intend to. Thinking inside-the-box, I often look at what is allegedly said, and I think about the intent of the message, and then I ponder what is being implied as well. It probably limits my thinking. Just to give you a for instance, when CP states that he and K did not not hear LE knock on the door, first it makes me think of Palmyra's Dad's statement about there are places in that building where you can't hear things, and secondly, it implies to me, that in the time frame when LE knocked on the door, CP and K would have been in a position to hear the knock. In other words, they were both awake and she was still there when the knocking would have happened. Surely LE would have given a time when the knock would have occurred and CP would need to explain why nobody answered, correct? And the answer seems to have been, we didn't hear it, that's why. So since I'm bound by this kind of thinking, unfortunately, I'm stuck with the thought that when LE arrived, K was still in the apartment. My thinking makes me favor other theories or sequences of events. But I understand your theory.

I understand where your coming from, but CP's statement "we didn't hear it" does not also account for the possibility that CP was passed out.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1208/21/ijvm.01.html

sniped " S. STOUFFER: Well, the explanation I got for the banging is that Kortne was so angered about the altercation with the neighbors. And as far as the police officer coming back the second time, the young man told me he`s a very hard sleeper."

 

[SnoopJohnB]

I understand where your coming from, but CP's statement "we didn't hear it" does not also account for the possibility that CP was passed out.[/B]

Here's a statement closer to the source snip...He said she started stomping around her apartment. Supposedly, police were called to the apartment, but no one answered. According to the man, neither he nor Stouffer heard officers knocking on her apartment door...

http://www.abc27.com/story/19290677/possibly-the-last-person-to-see-kortne-stouffer-speaks

 

[cluciano63]

Kortne's mom posted yesterday how Kortne never missed her Grandfather's birthday before, and she of course missed his 76th this week. Today she just posted "so sad."

I understand the need to believe in all options, but I have never believed that Kortne took off, to "clear her head" or for any other reason, at least not with the intention of not returning home within hours. But I don't even think she would take off on foot anyway, and we've heard nothing about her calling anyone to come and get her. However she left the premises was not under her own will, in my opinion, nor is she staying away on purpose.

Without any info at all coming out, I just don't see how this case will advance. Maybe searches are taking place in secret?(Doubtful, as media usually catches on.) Maybe LE is investigating the possibility of an arrest without finding Kortne? Lots of maybes but almost no facts.

 

[SnoopJohnB]

I guess we beat that topic to death BHS. Either way, if TS called the police, and then committed a crime knowing the police were on the way, or as in your theory, committed the crime and then called police, that shows some major, uh, bravery and risk taking. I'm not putting this forward as a theory, but just saying, to me, committing a crime AFTER police left the second time would seem a more plausible scenario than the two mentioned. To me. But again, we beat that to death and my lips are sealed.

 

[scorekeeper]

there was also the possibility discussed awhile ago that when the officer arrived for the last time (4:30ish) he didn't even get out of the car....he could have drove by and saw the lights out...thinking all is well, why bother getting everyone wound up again...

 

[BloodHoundSleuther]

Here's a statement closer to the source snip...He said she started stomping around her apartment. Supposedly, police were called to the apartment, but no one answered. According to the man, neither he nor Stouffer heard officers knocking on her apartment door...

http://www.abc27.com/story/19290677/possibly-the-last-person-to-see-kortne-stouffer-speaks

I guess it all depends on which statement you deem closer to the source. I personally deem CP talking directly with SS, Kortne's father, closer to the source. It could be that he didn't hear them knocking on the door because as he told Kortne's father face to face, he is a very hard sleeper. Not hearing something doesn't discount the possibility that he was asleep.

 

[BloodHoundSleuther]

there was also the possibility discussed awhile ago that when the officer arrived for the last time (4:30ish) he didn't even get out of the car....he could have drove by and saw the lights out...thinking all is well, why bother getting everyone wound up again...

I don't feel we will ever have an answer as to weather the officer bothered to knock or not. It's unfortunate! We know reports indicate that the officer did knock, but we really have no definitive way to prove or disprove that.

 

[BloodHoundSleuther]

I guess we beat that topic to death BHS. Either way, if TS called the police, and then committed a crime knowing the police were on the way, or as in your theory, committed the crime and then called police, that shows some major, uh, bravery and risk taking. I'm not putting this forward as a theory, but just saying, to me, committing a crime AFTER police left the second time would seem a more plausible scenario than the two mentioned. To me. But again, we beat that to death and my lips are sealed.

I agree and think we have beat it to death, but that's a good thing, why not try to rule everything out! Although, I have some things to take care of today and will have to be moving on here soon. Once the crime was committed, if it was committed due to rage, then the damage has already been done and now the only thing left to do is damage control. Not saying that TS is brave or even a risk taker, however I am saying that he may have lost control of his actions and then had no other choice than to do damage control. I personally feel something happened to Kortne between 4 AM and 4:12 AM. The later it gets, the more unlikely it gets that she is awake or up and about, especially after the events of the evening. Remember CP stated that she looked tired. JMO.

 

[SnoopJohnB]

Have a great day.

 

[BloodHoundSleuther]

Just to take this a step further. If I had to guess, TS would have called Kortne's landlord first to complain, and then would have called the police second to buy himself time, but this scenario only applies if those call were made from his house. There may also be a possibility that he made those calls from a cell phone depending on weather of not he even has a land line, many people do not have land lines in this day and age. I'm quite certain that the police would have a record of what phone number he would have used to call them. It may also be possible that he made those calls from his car, after he committed the crime. If he did this, I'm wondering if the police have looked into any of this, couldn't they triangulate the signal of where his call came from provided he used a cell phone? Have they tried this angle yet? However, if he made those calls from home, this option wouldn't be of any help. Just one more thing to consider.

 

[sreshowtime]

Has Kortne's boyfriend and/or family ever said anything publicly about that weekend, or her missing, or made any pleas?

 

[scorekeeper]

Has Kortne's boyfriend and/or family ever said anything publicly about that weekend, or her missing, or made any pleas?

i have never seen pictures or heard anything from the boyfriend.

I remember that he did not attend the first vigil.

I have also always wondered why he hasn't spoken out. :waitasec::waitasec:

 

[JoCoKSEyes]

Has Kortne's boyfriend and/or family ever said anything publicly about that weekend, or her missing, or made any pleas?

As far as I know, her boyfriend has never been named by MSM or quoted saying anything about this case. All we know is that his dad got a dog out of the apartment at some point after Kortne's disappearance.

 

[aszhsh]

KS had verbal/physical altercation atleast twice that evening (girl at bar & neighbor). KS was acting in a way that most can't relate to (because we are older and wiser). After a long evening of drinking and maybe more CP lays down and crashed. But KS is still pumped and not looking to go to sleep. I believe she may have stumped around on purpose to upset neighbor. Then decides to confront TS (not out of character for her that evening). TS is upset at stomping and calls LE and leaves message for Landlord. He hangs up phone and KS is banging on his door...confrontation occurs (after placing calls). Something bad happens and KS is unconscience or worse. He didn't plan this and he panics. He believes LE responding so he turns off lights and if LE knocked, he just didnt answer.

I personally would think after harming KS, calingl LE would be too risky. If LE searched his apt it was early on and they may have just walked through to see she wasn't there and no obviouse signs of crime. TS is around 40 yrs old and has experience with LE. I think he could fool LE much easier than CP. If your LE your not looking at poor neighbor who was attacked verbally/physically that evening with other neighbor as witness. The only thing that would raise a redflag is if he didn't answer the door. But if LE never went to door, no redflag there. Just one theory but worth considering.

I don't believe CP was at KS apt for protection. But I also dont believe that CP would physically harm KS if she refused his advances (he not looking for love just a good time that night)

Also it has been stated landlord was called...did he/she go to the apt to check on things that night? If so when and what did they see and do?

 

[BloodHoundSleuther]

KS had verbal/physical altercation atleast twice that evening (girl at bar & neighbor). KS was acting in a way that most can't relate to (because we are older and wiser). After a long evening of drinking and maybe more CP lays down and crashed. But KS is still pumped and not looking to go to sleep. I believe she may have stumped around on purpose to upset neighbor. Then decides to confront TS (not out of character for her that evening). TS is upset at stomping and calls LE and leaves message for Landlord. He hangs up phone and KS is banging on his door...confrontation occurs (after placing calls). Something bad happens and KS is unconscience or worse. He didn't plan this and he panics. He believes LE responding so he turns off lights and if LE knocked, he just didnt answer.

I personally would think after harming KS, calingl LE would be too risky. If LE searched his apt it was early on and they may have just walked through to see she wasn't there and no obviouse signs of crime. TS is around 40 yrs old and has experience with LE. I think he could fool LE much easier than CP. If your LE your not looking at poor neighbor who was attacked verbally/physically that evening with other neighbor as witness. The only thing that would raise a redflag is if he didn't answer the door. But if LE never went to door, no redflag there. Just one theory but worth considering.

I don't believe CP was at KS apt for protection. But I also dont believe that CP would physically harm KS if she refused his advances (he not looking for love just a good time that night)

Also it has been stated landlord was called...did he/she go to the apt to check on things that night? If so when and what did they see and do?

I agree about KS being off the hook that night. She could have confronted TS that night, it's not out of the question. Problem is, if TS did call the landlord and left a message and then called the police, and then something horrible occurred afterwards, even if he didn't plan on it, it's way too much of a risk turning off the lights and hoping they won't peruse it further. I'm not saying it didn't occur that way, but the risk is intensified by 1000 that way. I honestly feel, that if TS is the guilty party, after knowing he called the cops, he wouldn't chance the possibility of them knocking on the door and pursuing the matter further. I think he did damage control and took off with KS in the car. While this is still risky, at least he isn't laying low with the evidence in his own house JMO.

As for the landlord, just because he may have received a message about a disturbance call, I don't see him getting out of bed at 4 AM to deal with it. He may not have even gotten themessage for hours later, especiallly if he was sleeping. Who knows where he lives, it could be in another state or local, for all we know. What's the point in getting out of bed that early to drive possibly miles over a disturbance call, I just can't see it, he didn't know a possible missing person case was about to imerge or even a potential murder, to him it's just a run of the mill noise complaint. JMO

 

[aszhsh]

I agree that TS may have left prior to LE responding. If TS caused harm to KS (and I stress IF) I assume it was not planned. How he would of reacted at that point is uncertain. Either way he was there, he left, LE knocked or LE never got out of car...It is a plausable theory. It bothers be that he retained an attorney so early on...but he does work for one and has had previous experience with the judicial system. I feel like the comment he made about not really knowing KS is odd. I have read he post that maybe his attorney or LE suggested he not speak to press...but that still bothers me.

 

[SnoopJohnB]

I agree about KS being off the hook that night. She could have confronted TS that night, it's not out of the question.

I am so confused. When I said the exact same thing yesterday, your response was "I don't think for one second that Kortne showed up at TS door to fight with him again."

Don't bother explaining, I wouldn't understand it anyway.

 

[SnoopJohnB]

So I guess you can parse words and not look at the context and put suspicion on anybody. But as I've said, given the timelines and circumstances, I don't think anything anyone said is especially suspicious. Of every single thing that happened that night, that we're aware of, the one thing that seems the oddest to me, is that neither party answered the door on the second police visit. I can take into consideration that it was really late and people just wanted to get some sleep, which might account for it. But still, of all the events, I find that the most odd.

Now I'm not putting forth a theory of any kind here and everything may have happened exactly as reported. But an extraordinary event had occurred or was about to occur and nobody could possibly have known that. So there is a noise complaint at an ungodly hour of the morning. You show up to check it out, and everything is perfectly quiet. I don't know what SOP is in this case, but as a human, I probably would not have knocked on either door. I would have been happy the situation resolved itself and moved on. Even despite the previous events, if they were known, there would be no way of knowing that an extraordinary event had occurred or was about to occur.

Now, you find out later that a bad thing happened. And even though you behaved like a normal human, you know there is going to be a mob mentality and that you are going to be held responsible in the minds of the public. Even if you did actually knock on the doors and no one answered, you're going to be raked over the coals for not preventing an event you could never see coming.

That's a long winded way of saying, it wouldn't surprise me, or seem unnatural to me in any way, if there was no knock at the doors. Or there was a knock on one door, but not the other. And if there was never a knock, that would explain why there was no answer. That's not a theory, but I can easily see how not knocking would seem to be the most human thing to do at the time.

 

[SnoopJohnB]

So if you assume everyone is telling the truth and everyone is innocent, at some point, K left the apartment voluntarily or involuntarily. If you assume it was before 7:00 a.m., who in God's name would be up or on the streets or in that vincinity at that ungodly hour in that town?

Random abduction?
Someone choosing that moment to show up to settle a score?

It always leads me to the same place, each and every time. Highly improbable but the most probable of the possibilities to me.