PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[J. J. in Phila]

But he could have done all of that without disappearing when he retired in 8 months! Having a pension, savings, and not worrying about being found make a relaxing retirement much easier. He and PF weren't married and he didn't need anything from her, so if he wanted out, he could just go. Not to mention no one indicated they were anything less than happy together. He could have moved to rural Montana with all of his assets and desired contacts in place. No need for all of the disappearance drama.

I've yet to see any convincing reason why disappearing and all of the difficulties associated with it was any better than just retiring in 8 months. The only convincing reasons for walkway (some sort of danger) are just as valid a reason for foul play.

There is a tax advantage, and my understanding is that his heirs would a collect more if he died prior to retirement. Now, that could just as easily point to suicide.

As for contacts, the addresses of PA retirees, unless subject to a protection order, are public. There is also the "ex-DA" possibility. He may have been called in numerous cases after he retired; certainly, at least one ADA was called in the Sandusky investigation. I would also have no doubt that he would have been hounded by the Press.

I would also note that RFG did have an interest in the 1985 case of Hinckley, OH police chief, Mel Wiley, who the police determined left voluntarily.

 

[Hbgchick]

I am not 100% sure of any theory. In my opinion, walkaway is most likely based on the facts as I know them. None of us know what reasons might be hidden in someone's head that make them do the things they do. On the surface it may look like he had every reason in the world not to walk away, but that doesn't mean he knew something we don't; in fact it is undeniably certain that he knew lots of things that we don't. None of us knew him well personally so what I think is the most odd is that people keep saying "He had no reason to walk away!!! He had everything he wanted!!!". How in the world would you know that? Based on a few very general comments such as "He was looking forward to retiring"? That's how you know what he was thinking on the morning of April 15, 2005?

I have been discussing this case since the day it happened (right in my back yard, by the way, I am a Centre County native for those who don't know) for nine years and have heard every single fact, rumor, speculation, and downright wild theory out there. All of the possible scenarios being currently discussed have all been discussed before, among many others. In the beginning, I was sure he had met with foul play. But over years of discussion and speculation I learned several things (among many others, but I don't have all day):

If it were foul play, someone(s) would have had to have A.) a pretty strong motive in the first place, B.) known where he was going to be at a particular time, C.) the cojones to apprehend him in a very public place without anyone noticing, D.) transported him (presumably against his will) far enough away so that a body would never be found/identified, E.) murdered him in that location and hidden the body (again without anyone noticing him/her/them) and F.) done all of that without leaving one trace of usable evidence. Possible? Yes.

If it were suicide, could he have gotten into another car and driven somewhere remote to kill himself where a body would never be discovered? Sure. It's possible.

However, I have formed an opinion based on the facts as I know them, and believe that the most likely case is that he left of his own accord.

 

[Hbgchick]

...Not to mention no one indicated they were anything less than happy together....

Had to delete that last message - I can't quickly find a source and don't want to post without one. Sorry!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

One thing, and I've pointed it out before, is that PEF was hugely tied to Bellefonte and Centre County, whereas RFG was not. He loved to travel and drive, and I have not seen anything that she did.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

First of all, I agree with you post, but I'd like to play Devil's Advocate.

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If it were foul play, someone(s) would have had to have A.) a pretty strong motive in the first place, B.) known where he was going to be at a particular time, C.) the cojones to apprehend him in a very public place without anyone noticing, D.) transported him (presumably against his will) far enough away so that a body would never be found/identified, E.) murdered him in that location and hidden the body (again without anyone noticing him/her/them) and F.) done all of that without leaving one trace of usable evidence. Possible? Yes.

If it was some time of a clandestine meeting, A, B, C, D, and F might be explainable.

The problem I have a job related clandestine meeting is no case notes, no notes about who he was meeting, no communication with the person(s) and he didn't tell anyone where he was going. He didn't say, "I'll be in Lewisburg to meet a source."

Another problem is the cell phone being turned off. Why not just leave it on, if this was a job related meeting?

 

[Mountain Misst]

First of all, I agree with you post, but I'd like to play Devil's Advocate.

Snipped:



If it was some time of a clandestine meeting, A, B, C, D, and F might be explainable.

The problem I have a job related clandestine meeting is no case notes, no notes about who he was meeting, no communication with the person(s) and he didn't tell anyone where he was going. He didn't say, "I'll be in Lewisburg to meet a source."

Another problem is the cell phone being turned off. Why not just leave it on, if this was a job related meeting?

If the last call to RF was at 11:30am, as I believe; have phone records been released? Was there with any further activity?
You mention phone being turned off. Is there a time for that and was the phone left in the car?

 

[Hbgchick]

If it was some time of a clandestine meeting, A, B, C, D, and F might be explainable.

The problem I have a job related clandestine meeting is no case notes, no notes about who he was meeting, no communication with the person(s) and he didn't tell anyone where he was going. He didn't say, "I'll be in Lewisburg to meet a source."

Another problem is the cell phone being turned off. Why not just leave it on, if this was a job related meeting?

Well, ok, I'll agree that if it was a clandestine/non-job related meeting, ALL of those things could be possible. But the thing about that is I can't think of any way that it wouldn't be job related and RFG end up missing or dead. I mean, there are probably about a million people related to his role as a DA who might wish him ill will (although I don't believe anyone actually did anything about it), but in his personal life? Would love to hear a theory if you have one that ends up with him being missing and not a walkaway. If it were someone personal I can see B.) being true and to an extent D.) (the transport part) being true but if it were like that I see them driving off into the sunset...exactly as planned.

I don't know that the cell phone being off is a big deal. Back then (and I say that like it was ages ago but...technologically it was) people would turn off their phone if they didn't plan to use it/weren't expecting a call/didn't want to be disturbed to save the battery.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If the last call to RF was at 11:30am, as I believe; have phone records been released? Was there with any further activity?
You mention phone being turned off. Is there a time for that and was the phone left in the car?

No further calls and no the phone records have not been released. The phone was left in the car, and they could not ping it. I don't know when it was turned off, however, LE could not determine that it was in Lewisburg. I would take from that that the phone did not interact with any of the towers in Lewisburg.

 

[SuperSmith]

First of all, I agree with you post, but I'd like to play Devil's Advocate.

Snipped:



If it was some time of a clandestine meeting, A, B, C, D, and F might be explainable.

The problem I have a job related clandestine meeting is no case notes, no notes about who he was meeting, no communication with the person(s) and he didn't tell anyone where he was going. He didn't say, "I'll be in Lewisburg to meet a source."

Another problem is the cell phone being turned off. Why not just leave it on, if this was a job related meeting?

-Perhaps there is case notes but if no one (LE) knows WHAT CASE it surely wouldn't raise a red flag.

-We do not know who communicated with RG the days leading up to that day.

-If he is meeting someone with information or perhaps an undercover he certainly isn't going to broadcast it. It has been well established that Ray was a private man as evidenced when he took off for an Indians game while telling no one.

-I don't see the cellphone being off as "a problem". There are plenty of explanations for that. He could've been saving battery power (don't tell me no one has done that), he could have not wanted to be interrupted, he could have been told to turn it off and leave it by his eventual assailant(s), he could have turned it off due to spotty coverage on the way there.

I've decided to continue posting here for Ray and his family. Sometimes I get discouraged by polar opposite personalities but I will continue to push through.

I was chatting with a friend about the case and they posed an interesting food for thought question.

"If I was a bad guy in an organization and contacted you, telling you precisely what one of your loved ones was doing right at that very moment, and telling you what I wanted you to do, would you do it?"

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Well, ok, I'll agree that if it was a clandestine/non-job related meeting, ALL of those things could be possible. But the thing about that is I can't think of any way that it wouldn't be job related. I mean, there are probably about a million people related to his role as a DA who might wish him ill will (although I don't believe anyone actually did anything about it), but in his personal life? Would love to hear a theory if you have one that ends up with him being missing and not a walkaway. If it were someone personal I can see B.) being true and to an extent D.) (the transport part) being true but if it were like that I see them driving off into the sunset...exactly as planned.

Okay. Meeting a lover is an obvious possibility. We do know there was the "sexting scandal" in 2008; it could have been a similar situation, but beyond sexting. The other woman could have been married. I don't really like to think about those things, but they are possible.

Those would be my "personal" things.

I don't know that the cell phone being off is a big deal. Back then (and I say that like it was ages ago but...technologically it was) people would turn off their phone if they didn't plan to use it/weren't expecting a call/didn't want to be disturbed to save the battery.

It is consistent with RFG taking the day off, or wanting not to be disturbed. He did have voicemail.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped:

-Perhaps there is case notes but if no one (LE) knows WHAT CASE it surely wouldn't raise a red flag.

No case file out. Nothing that we'd heard about from his office computer.

-We do not know who communicated with RG the days leading up to that day.

We do know that there was no record of him communicating, and no e-mails.

-If he is meeting someone with information or perhaps an undercover he certainly isn't going to broadcast it. It has been well established that Ray was a private man as evidenced when he took off for an Indians game while telling no one.

He certainly would have notes on it, and he would have no need to pass it off as a day off.

-I don't see the cellphone being off as "a problem". There are plenty of explanations for that. He could've been saving battery power (don't tell me no one has done that), he could have not wanted to be interrupted, he could have been told to turn it off and leave it by his eventual assailant(s), he could have turned it off due to spotty coverage on the way there.

Turning it off in route isn't a huge problem. Not turning it on would indicate that he wasn't advertizing his location and/or that he didn't want to be disturbed.

I was chatting with a friend about the case and they posed an interesting food for thought question.

"If I was a bad guy in an organization and contacted you, telling you precisely what one of your loved ones was doing right at that very moment, and telling you what I wanted you to do, would you do it?"

If my love one was 2,500 miles away, I'd call her. If I was the DA, I'd then call the cops. If my SO was in a secure office, like in a court house, with guards, I'd call her.

 

[SuperSmith]

Snipped:



No case file out. Nothing that we'd heard about from his office computer.



We do know that there was no record of him communicating, and no e-mails.



He certainly would have notes on it, and he would have no need to pass it off as a day off.



Turning it off in route isn't a huge problem. Not turning it on would indicate that he wasn't advertizing his location and/or that he didn't want to be disturbed.



If my love one was 2,500 miles away, I'd call her. If I was the DA, I'd then call the cops. If my SO was in a secure office, like in a court house, with guards, I'd call her.

-It has been revealed that LE did not go through all his cases. That was said as recent as the NG show last week.

-We do not know who contacted him leading up or if the number would've raised a red flag with LE. The Cellphone records haven't been released. The home phone numbers haven't been released.

-If the meeting was deemed confidential. He would not make note of it. That would defeat the purpose of confidentiality. Passing it off as day off certainly would help secure that confidence.

-Did he leave a note as why he was at Rayestown lake the day before? He was the department head. He really didn't need to answer to anyone.

 

[SuperSmith]

Snipped:


If my love one was 2,500 miles away, I'd call her. If I was the DA, I'd then call the cops. If my SO was in a secure office, like in a court house, with guards, I'd call her.

That probably wouldn't be a good idea if he felt the threat was real and I am sure instructions would've included to contact no one.

 

[Hbgchick]

Okay. Meeting a lover is an obvious possibility. We do know there was the "sexting scandal" in 2008; it could have been a similar situation, but beyond sexting. The other woman could have been married. I don't really like to think about those things, but they are possible.

Those would be my "personal" things.

Well, yes, something along those lines could be possible. But if it were something like that, I think we would have pretty quickly turned up some evidence of it. I.e. - it seems implausible that an individual not typically associated with criminal behavior (and from what we know of his character I don't think RFG would be involved in a 'relationship' of any sort with a criminal - but who the heck knows. really) could just one day up and commit the perfect crime.

Frankly, damned near anything is "possible", which is why we rehash the same stuff over and over I guess. Lol. No new answers, just new questions.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

-It has been revealed that LE did not go through all his cases. That was said as recent as the NG show last week.

They didn't look at 20 years worth, but they did at the crent ones.

-We do not know who contacted him leading up or if the number would've raised a red flag with LE. The Cellphone records haven't been released. The home phone numbers haven't been released.

We do know what LE has said; the calls were from his office and his daughter.

-If the meeting was deemed confidential. He would not make note of it. That would defeat the purpose of confidentiality. Passing it off as day off certainly would help secure that confidence.

Prosecutors, in particular, don't work like that. The meeting would be documented and there would be no reason why RFG couldn't say, **I'm meeting someone about a case.**

-Did he leave a note as why he was at Rayestown lake the day before? He was the department head. He really didn't need to answer to anyone.

And as far as we know, which is fairly good knowledge because someone saw him, it was not a clandestine meeting with an informant.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

That probably wouldn't be a good idea if he felt the threat was real and I am sure instructions would've included to contact no one.

Nearly every criminal that has verbal contact with the victim says **don't call the cops.** Smart people ignore them and realize that it is a ploy.

I doubt that RFG would so gullible as to fall for that. He'd have to incredibly naive to fall for something that silly.

 

[SuperSmith]

Nearly every criminal that has verbal contact with the victim says **don't call the cops.** Smart people ignore them and realize that it is a ploy.

I doubt that RFG would so gullible as to fall for that. He'd have to incredibly naive to fall for something that silly.

Not if the threat was real and RG knew it to be so. If the individual was telling at that very moment what a loved one was doing and threatened you to this, that, or whatever. You are going to do it!!!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Well, yes, something along those lines could be possible. But if it were something like that, I think we would have pretty quickly turned up some evidence of it. I.e. - it seems implausible that an individual not typically associated with criminal behavior (and from what we know of his character I don't think RFG would be involved in a 'relationship' of any sort with a criminal - but who the heck knows. really) could just one day up and commit the perfect crime.

Frankly, damned near anything is "possible", which is why we rehash the same stuff over and over I guess. Lol. No new answers, just new questions.

I've often thought that some type of a lover's quarrel could have developed.

 

[SuperSmith]

"To me," Zaccagni said, "it looks more and more like a homicide by someone who planned this out, lured Ray to a meeting, got him to bring the computer, and then took the time to do something with the body so it wouldn't be found."

http://articles.philly.com/2005-09-...ide-theory-dirt-parking-lot-susquehanna-river

 

[SuperSmith]

"No one has any idea what Ray was working on or what he might have stumbled across," said Denise Elbell, the assistant county administrator.

http://articles.philly.com/2005-09-...ide-theory-dirt-parking-lot-susquehanna-river