PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #14

[J. J. in Phila]

Sorry if this had already been posted, but this was written by a former classmate of Roy's with very little motivation to lie: http://irpvoicesonline.com/voices/will-we-ever-know/

Also, another US military 737 crashed in Croatia a month before Roy died. All on board were killed, including a cabinet member. The cause seemed ambiguous (a mix of mechanical and human error). I wonder if this was maybe the last straw for Roy, and he was going to blow the whistle, but someone found out and took care of him. Once again, just thinking out loud.

I actually looked at this a while back. There were not an inordinate number of crashes of that type of aircraft and the plane was not the Boeing CT-43A (modified 737) that the Cabinet member, Ron Brown, was killed in back in 1996.

 

[Sutton]

So are the rest of us that are regular posters and contributers in some way inferior?

Inferior to what?

 

[Ozoner]

OK I stand corrected since I was going by my experience driving between Franklin (Warren County) and Dayton on I-75 which took me a good 40-45 minutes even though Franklin is right off I-75. I-475 which connects south Dayton to Northern areas was no better. Traffic
was horrendous on I-75 when I drove it. That was between mid 80's to late 90's. Just my experience.

I'm not sure where Roy worked, where he lived, or where he committed suicide, but the commuting distance doesn't prove anything. I used to commute an hour each way to work, which isn't unusual here in the Detroit area. I've known quite a few people who commuted 90 minutes or moe each way to work. It isn't ideal, but many people do it.

 

[MissJ]

I never said it did prove anything. There are conflicting stories of where he lived and committed suicide.
Just wanted to have an MSN source of the statement that Roy's car was found in Hamilton. All reports I have seen say Dayton, Montgomery county. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. If something is stated as fact such as car location then it should be backed with location of that information. But if he died in Dayton and his car was in Hamilton it could be an important fact as they are many miles apart.

 

[SuperSmith]

Yes, Tony Gricar was asked about his fathers death and the reporter was trying to tie in the bipolar disorder of Roy's to Ray. Tony indicated that the one thing that stood out about his fathers "suicide" was that he feared the water. The thought being if you chose to commit the act you aren't going to choose the method you fear most.

 

[Trackergd]

Yes, Tony Gricar was asked about his fathers death and the reporter was trying to tie in the bipolar disorder of Roy's to Ray. Tony indicated that the one thing that stood out about his fathers "suicide" was that he feared the water. The thought being if you chose to commit the act you aren't going to choose the method you fear most.

I am forced to agree with this as I have a fear of great heights, so there is no chance I will be taking a dive off a building...ever, unless someone carries me up kicking and screaming and throws me off. I also have a fear of water, so drowning is out for me too.

 

[MissJ]

I am forced to agree with this as I have a fear of great heights, so there is no chance I will be taking a dive off a building...ever, unless someone carries me up kicking and screaming and throws me off. I also have a fear of water, so drowning is out for me too.

ITA. I hate heights and get anxious just thinking about it.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Yes, Tony Gricar was asked about his fathers death and the reporter was trying to tie in the bipolar disorder of Roy's to Ray. Tony indicated that the one thing that stood out about his fathers "suicide" was that he feared the water. The thought being if you chose to commit the act you aren't going to choose the method you fear most.

I'm not sure the it would not be correct to assume that he would not choose that method. I am not overly familiar with suicide methods, except that most people do not leave notes.

 

[wijg]

From Wikipedia

Suicide by drowning is the act of deliberately submerging oneself in water or other liquid to prevent breathing and deprive the brain of oxygen. Due to the body's natural tendency to come up for air, drowning attempts often involve the use of a heavy object to overcome this reflex. As the level of carbon dioxide in the victim's blood rises, the central nervous system sends the respiratory muscles an involuntary signal to contract, and the person breathes in water. Death usually occurs as the level of oxygen becomes too low to sustain the brain cells. It is among the least common methods of suicide, typically accounting for less than 2% of all reported suicides in the United States.

So... if drowning accounts for less than 2% of all suicides, and if Roy's attempt at drowning did NOT involve the use of a weights, we can reasonably conclude that the means of suicide utilized by Roy is one used by less than 1% of people that commit suicide.

More from Wikipedia (btw, everything has citations unless otherwise noted)

Higher levels of social and national cohesion reduce suicide rates. Suicide levels are highest among the retired, unemployed, impoverished, divorced, the childless, urbanites*, empty nesters, and other people who live alone. Suicide rates also rise during times of economic uncertainty. (Although poverty is not a direct cause, it can contribute to the risk of suicide).

Epidemiological studies generally show a relationship between suicide or suicidal behaviors and socio-economic disadvantage, including limited educational achievement, homelessness, unemployment, economic dependence, and contact with the police or justice system.

*citation needed (still wouldn't apply to Roy though, as he was not an urbanite)

Roy fits none of these profiles. The only thing we have on Roy is that he was allegedly diagnosed bipolar. But I find that hard to believe that someone would be diagnosed bipolar and maintain their security clearance at a place like Wright Patterson AFB. Psych evals and reviews of medical records would be necessary every so often to keep one's credentials.

 

[Trackergd]

I have had friends and neighbors who worked in defense related jobs. Yes they do get evaluated at least once a year, and if you are working on classified projects, you get additional reviews and they go around and question your neighbors to see if they have any idea what you do and if you talk about it at all.

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

Saturday would probably eliminate suicide, and eliminate all but one murder scenario.

JJ would you know if RG was the right to know officer when he was the DA or did SPM make herself be the right to know officer and if she did would that be a conflict of interest on her part :thinking:

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

also I asked you before about what if RG was on the road in the morning which would be friday with a passenger which would be a female and driving on rt 45 towards lewisburg and your reply was

 

[SuperSmith]

Great posts by all. So now we can see why Ray never believed his brother committed the act. Was there also enough reasonable doubt by LE there for Ray to continue to inquire about it every time he visited Ohio? It is of record that coroners have been wrong.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ would you know if RG was the right to know officer when he was the DA or did SPM make herself be the right to know officer and if she did would that be a conflict of interest on her part :thinking:

The law was not enacted until about two years ago. SPM could make herself the RTK Officer for that office, but her decision could be appealed.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

also I asked you before about what if RG was on the road in the morning which would be friday with a passenger which would be a female and driving on rt 45 towards lewisburg and your reply was

The witnesses never reported a woman, or any passenger, to the best of my knowledge.

 

[Trackergd]

Even if foul play becomes the primary theory, I seriously doubt drowning was the means. It is likely the computer was disposed of in the river to delay or eliminate discovery, however due to a wealth of historical data on the subject, feel confident a body would have surfaced and been noticed. While Lewisburg might be a likely location for a clandestine meeting and disposing of the computer and drive, I doubt it was the last place RFG was alive. To that point I will note that there are countless coal mine vent and access shafts as well as thousands of acres of woods nearby and along the route that would all but eliminate any chance of discovery of remains if carefully done.

The hinge point for me is the Fenton sighting. If she saw RFG after he was in Lewisburg, the case goes in a completely different direction for me. If RFG was in Lewisburg for the express purpose of disposing of the computer and drive, I doubt he would have been sight seeing/walking around town and in the SOS, even less so if he suspected someone was hot on this tail attempting to obtain the data and/or him.

I am convinced that what was on that computer drive worried RFG to the degree he went to extraordinary means to dispose any trace of it. It may very well have been the key to the case, now lost. Classified information from Roy, financial information related to offshore money or something personally damning..it's anyone's guess at this point, unless there is a tidbit in someone else's hands or mind that has not come to light yet.

While we may disagree on the mechanics of the event, it is completely possible that each of us is correct on one specific element of it and together we have the complete picture...and just don't know it. Lets all just for a bit put our pet theories and personal opinions aside and ask ourselves "if my theory is incorrect, what is the next most likely scenario?" and see where that takes us.

My signature contains two quotes, the bottom one has proven true for my 50 years of doing this...don't for a single moment assume you know all there is to know about RFG.

 

[MissJ]

If RFG doubted his brother committed suicide what would he have tried to do about it? Look into it quietly or make na issue openly?

 

[MissJ]

Another point.....just because someone is depressed does not mean any suspicious death would be suicide. A lot of men shoot themselves. Hanging is also common. Roy may have had Bipolar disorder but it doesn't mean he or RFG killed themselves I worked in this field for years. I never knew anyone who killed themselves in a manner that they feared. And I saw or knew plenty who killed themselves.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Another point.....just because someone is depressed does not mean any suspicious death would be suicide. A lot of men shoot themselves. Hanging is also common. Roy may have had Bipolar disorder but it doesn't mean he or RFG killed themselves I worked in this field for years. I never knew anyone who killed themselves in a manner that they feared. And I saw or knew plenty who killed themselves.

By the same token, just because a DA could be targeting, would not mean he was targeted.

And, to be fair, just because someone could have hidden money for a new life someplace else doesn't mean the person is living anew life someplace else.

Keep in mind, however, that RFG had no fear of water, so that is possible. Also keep in mind that there are wooded areas within walking distance where RFG could have committed suicide and has body remain hidden for more than a decade.

 

[cutter99]

Just curious, but this is a question that just occurred to me. Why drive to Lewisburg to commit suicide? From Bellefonte to Centre Hall to Lewisburg there are so many more places that would be far more private- less chance for someone to attempt to stop you.

Wasn't Ray at Raystown Lake in the week before he disappeared? Again, the drive from Bellefonte to there can get fairly rural, as well as the lake not being near as populated as the Lewisburg area.

What am I missing?