PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[J. J. in Phila]

Can anyone think of additional reasons for RFG staying overnight in Lewisburg (assuming he did), and not calling home on either the evening of 4/15/05
or the morning 4/16/05?

 

[Trackergd]

Can anyone think of additional reasons for RFG staying overnight in Lewisburg (assuming he did), and not calling home on either the evening of 4/15/05
or the morning 4/16/05?

Interesting question. He called PF about the dogs. One would assume he would call PF if he was staying overnight, if for no other reason than not to cause her to worry. He could have even made up a bogus excuse related to work if needed. This is just my personal opinion, but it either suggests something unplanned occurred or a surprising degree of callousness towards PF and his daughter if walking away or committing suicide.

I always let B know where I am. Any overnight trips involve paperwork showing where I will be staying, phone numbers and when I expect to be back. On SAR Ops I leave a paper in my Jeep with contact information and what area on the topo map I expect to be in.

I have not seen anything in print that has indicated he was working on something covert and that PF had been asked to keep quiet about it.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Interesting question. He called PF about the dogs. One would assume he would call PF if he was staying overnight, if for no other reason than not to cause her to worry. He could have even made up a bogus excuse related to work if needed. This is just my personal opinion, but it either suggests something unplanned occurred or a surprising degree of callousness towards PF and his daughter if walking away or committing suicide.

I always let B know where I am. Any overnight trips involve paperwork showing where I will be staying, phone numbers and when I expect to be back. On SAR Ops I leave a paper in my Jeep with contact information and what area on the topo map I expect to be in.

I have not seen anything in print that has indicated he was working on something covert and that PF had been asked to keep quiet about it.

In terms of something official, there is nothing known. I also could not come up with any scenario where he'd need to spend the night.

He had his cell, but ity was turned off.

I would feel that "degree of callousness" was needed if RFG planned to leave voluntarily. He could not tip off his heirs, or they would be committing fraud if they attempted to declare him dead. Roy was suppose to be going to pick up his son when he committed suicide. After that fight with Emma, he did leave for Cleveland and did not tell her where he was. It would not be completely out of character even if he planned to return.

All that said, I can come up those several reasons why RFG would not call, at least that night. In most of them, he lays down, and falls asleep (or is too sick to call).

 

[Trackergd]

I think we can agree there are signals that family picks up on prior to a suicide. Even if they remember them in retrospect. In many cases a note is left either at home, with an attorney or next to them. We see no reports of these signals other that a worried look and acting a bit out of sorts and the book left open to a particular section. With walking off, I would have thought something like "I need a break, will be back in a couple of days" or words to that effect. As smart as he is/was, it stands to reason he would have found a gentle way to ease them into his going missing rather than an abrupt cutoff. Also curious as most suicides occur where the body will be found...notably if you want to don't want your heirs and loved ones to be left hanging on the hook wondering what happened to you and to be forced to have you declared dead. The shear amount of intrigue in the local politics, the college and the bottom side (Peyton Place) of the upper crust makes one scratch their head as to why it took the Sandusky horror to shine a light on it and why the wheels of justice are moving so slowly. The official investigation in to RG going missing seems to have been rather short in comparison to many cases I have been or are working on that have spanned decades.

 

[Ozoner]

Trying to second guess the thinking of someone suicidal or of someone bent on disappearing might be an exercise in futility. Either scenario bespeaks mental illnes, probably depression specifically.
I change my mind every time I revisit this case. Right now I'm at:
1) Suicide, possibly with the intent of tricking people into thinking it was a walk away, 40%
2) Walk away, 15%
3) Murder 25%
4) Accidental death that was covered up, 20%

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Trying to second guess the thinking of someone suicidal or of someone bent on disappearing might be an exercise in futility. Either scenario bespeaks mental illnes, probably depression specifically.
I change my mind every time I revisit this case. Right now I'm at:
1) Suicide, possibly with the intent of tricking people into thinking it was a walk away, 40%
2) Walk away, 15%
3) Murder 25%
4) Accidental death that was covered up, 20%

I cannot agree that voluntary disappearing is a mental illness. There have been several cases where the person was found, and there was no mental illness.

Right now, I think that the chances are:

1. Voluntary departure, 59%.

2. Foul Play, (including murder, an accidental being covered, death by natural causes being covered-up), 30%

3. Deliberate suicide, 10%

4. Something else (amnesia, accident), 1%

 

[Ozoner]

I cannot agree that voluntary disappearing is a mental illness. There have been several cases where the person was found, and there was no mental illness.

Right now, I think that the chances are:

1. Voluntary departure, 59%.

2. Foul Play, (including murder, an accidental being covered, death by natural causes being covered-up), 30%

3. Deliberate suicide, 10%

4. Something else (amnesia, accident), 1%

I shouldn't have said "accidental death;" I meant accidental OR natural, as you stated.

I used to lean heavily towards voluntary disappearance, especially since he was intrigued with Mel Wiley.

(I'm not entirely convinced that Wiley ran away; he may have killed himself but staged it to look like a disappearance.,)

 

[J. J. in Phila]

One thing that I consider "foul play" is concealing a natural or accidental death. It is technically criminal.

 

[Ozoner]

One thing that I consider "foul play" is concealing a natural or accidental death. It is technically criminal.

It might technically be foul play, but it is a very different scenario than murder, which is why I listed it separately.

I do think someone else was in Gricar's car shortly before it was found, but for me that is not enough to assume foul play.

If he killed himself or just walked away, he could have left his car with the keys in it. Someone could have found it and taken it but then abandoned it after realizing to whom it belonged.

If he walked away, he may have enlisted the help of another person, who may have deposited the car at his request. Actually, I can't see him pulling off a walk-away without help. (In an old thread, someone suggested that Gricar may have tracked down Mel Wiley and gotten his help—that scenario is pretty unlikely, but it would make a great movie!)

 

[cutter99]

Did Ray's brother leave behind a note when he died? Did his brother's family notice a change in his brother's behavior around the time of his death?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Did Ray's brother leave behind a note when he died? Did his brother's family notice a change in his brother's behavior around the time of his death?

No. According to Tony, he left to pick up one of sons at soccer practice. The family didn't know anything was wrong until the son called.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It might technically be foul play, but it is a very different scenario than murder, which is why I listed it separately.

I do think someone else was in Gricar's car shortly before it was found, but for me that is not enough to assume foul play.

If he killed himself or just walked away, he could have left his car with the keys in it. Someone could have found it and taken it but then abandoned it after realizing to whom it belonged.

If he walked away, he may have enlisted the help of another person, who may have deposited the car at his request. Actually, I can't see him pulling off a walk-away without help. (In an old thread, someone suggested that Gricar may have tracked down Mel Wiley and gotten his help—that scenario is pretty unlikely, but it would make a great movie!)

When the car was found, virtually no one Lewisburg knew that he was missing. It is in a different media market and it hadn't hit the wires until about 10:45.

I have hypothesized a "helper" and made a list of about two dozen people who it could be.

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

I cannot agree that voluntary disappearing is a mental illness. There have been several cases where the person was found, and there was no mental illness.

Right now, I think that the chances are:

1. Voluntary departure, 59%.

2. Foul Play, (including murder, an accidental being covered, death by natural causes being covered-up), 30%

3. Deliberate suicide, 10%

4. Something else (amnesia, accident), 1%

The established time line that was made on Friday is set in stone which will never be redone (it would be false or fake) 99.9 % M

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

When the car was found, virtually no one Lewisburg knew that he was missing. It is in a different media market and it hadn't hit the wires until about 10:45.

I have hypothesized a "helper" and made a list of about two dozen people who it could be.

JJ did you ever see the 7 faces of Dr Lao well I know of a female who for some reason has many faces I guess that comes with age and change or maybe health

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

every time I would take a look at a picture of this person over time from years ago to now there was always a different look as to facial hair clothes

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

but that's what women do change up they have some many different looks

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

its like someone on heroin you see the changes in facial and hair and body from when started to different years ahead

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Did Ray's brother leave behind a note when he died? Did his brother's family notice a change in his brother's behavior around the time of his death?

No note, there are no notes in a majority of suicides. He was suppose to pick up one of his sons at soccer practice. Nobody realized he was missing until the son phoned home.

I have never heard TG, Roy's son and RFG's nephew mention anything regarding a warning sign.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

A podcast from 2015. https://overcast.fm/+E3z-SnkAs

I think most of the folks here know more about the case, but yet it is interesting; they threw some some things together on short notice. Some of language may offend you, especially if you haven't been attending Trump rallies.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Another podcast: http://lancasterpodcaststudio.com/podcast/001-the-ray-gricar-disappearance/#comment-3

This one has marshaled the facts much better. He looks at the finances.