PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

[J. J. in Phila]

Who here believes that if the contents of the hard drive had been salvaged by the FBI the mystery of what happened to RG would be solved? (Raises hand).


Thanks for that clarification, J.J.!

Separate (2-part) question for you and others here on the thread:
a) Do you think that if the FBI had been able to retrieve the contents of the hard drive on RG's laptop, the mystery of what happened to him would have been solved by the info it contained?
b) I know this calls for pure conjecture, but what are people thinking may have been on that hard drive that made RG so desperate to obliterate it entirely?

A. Maybe not. He asked about getting rid of the data about a year before he disappeared; he also purchased software about a year before to clean the computer. I can construct a scenario where the laptop is totally unrelated to his disappearance. There are several scenarios where it does as well.

B. Anything. It could be anything from draft personnel reports on staff to something involving illegal activities. Again, it might be unrelated to his disappearance.

 

[GordianKnot]

A. Maybe not. He asked about getting rid of the data about a year before he disappeared; he also purchased software about a year before to clean the computer. I can construct a scenario where the laptop is totally unrelated to his disappearance. There are several scenarios where it does as well.

B. Anything. It could be anything from draft personnel reports on staff to something involving illegal activities. Again, it might be unrelated to his disappearance.

BBMFF: So then why go to the extreme measure of tossing it in the river? RG didn't "clean" the computer, he utterly destroyed it. For 99.99% of the population, using cleaning software would be enough for them to be confident that their electronic data had been scrubbed. Also, wasn't this his work laptop, i.e., government property vs. his own private computer? I'm not clear on whether he just used this laptop for work purposes or if indeed it was county-issued and the property of the government, i.e., something he would need to turn back in to the county when he retired.

ITA w/ you that the laptop may be unrelated; however, I see the probability of it being unrelated as extremely low. Again, JMO. For that reason, illegal activity of some kind is definitely high on my list of what that laptop may have contained. The biggest stumbling block to evidence of illegal activity in my mind is that this was RG's work computer. He was clearly an intelligent man, it's hard to envision him deciding to conduct illicit activities on a piece of public property (if it was indeed property of the county).

For RG to "fry" his hard drive by driving miles away and toss the whole kit and caboodle into the river right in the same timeframe that he goes missing screams of it being a piece of the "Why and where did RG go?" puzzle.

 

[SeekingJana]

BBMFF: So then why go to the extreme measure of tossing it in the river? RG didn't "clean" the computer, he utterly destroyed it. For 99.99% of the population, using cleaning software would be enough for them to be confident that their electronic data had been scrubbed. Also, wasn't this his work laptop, i.e., government property vs. his own private computer? I'm not clear on whether he just used this laptop for work purposes or if indeed it was county-issued and the property of the government, i.e., something he would need to turn back in to the county when he retired.

ITA w/ you that the laptop may be unrelated; however, I see the probability of it being unrelated as extremely low. Again, JMO. For that reason, illegal activity of some kind is definitely high on my list of what that laptop may have contained. The biggest stumbling block to evidence of illegal activity in my mind is that this was RG's work computer. He was clearly an intelligent man, it's hard to envision him deciding to conduct illicit activities on a piece of public property (if it was indeed property of the county).

For RG to "fry" his hard drive by driving miles away and toss the whole kit and caboodle into the river right in the same timeframe that he goes missing screams of it being a piece of the "Why and where did RG go?" puzzle.

It was an old laptop. Neither the case nor the HD were worth much at all because of age. He had been issued the laptop 3 or so years before. The loss of the thing would have necessitated paying just a small amount if the county sent him ( or his next of kin) a bill for it. It's becoming a red herring again.

Maybe the river drop was exactly what I said from my family members in IT. That if the HD was not found early on, the sandy water would corrode the parts.
Not to say " Foul play" but just as a reminder that he left his way and left things the way he wanted them.
He didn't throw in the laptop's carrying case. He left the case it usually stayed in where it usually was kept, in the top of his closet. Patty got the case down for LE, and we are led to believe that's when she and the policeman witnessed the computer being missing. He may have wanted to delay knowledge of it being missing.
He or someone unscrewed the HD from the case and pulled it out and separated it from the computer body, which was a deliberate act to goof up the HD.

He was meticulous. He wanted the computer gone and destroyed, so he took it to Lewisburg, as he was going there anyway, minus the storage/ carry case, and destroyed it.

It's not a huge piece of valuable evidence, and we determined why a long time ago. It was not a laptop which would have been re- issued to someone else when Ray turned it in upon his retirement 6 months later. It was old and considered to be obsolete.

Whatever was on the HD was HIS intellectual property. He had every right to obliterate it for his own reasons, and for all we know, may have left money somehow with a friend that would have paid the $200 or so for its market value. We aren't privy to much case information, but the fact is, he did a very minor wrong thing if he did destroy the old laptop with no compensation to the county.
If that's the worst thing he ever did, or any of us ever do in the same situation, we are practically saints.

 

[GordianKnot]

It was an old laptop. Neither the case nor the HD were worth much at all because of age. He had been issued the laptop 3 or so years before. The loss of the thing would have necessitated paying just a small amount if the county sent him ( or his next of kin) a bill for it. It's becoming a red herring again.

Maybe the river drop was exactly what I said from my family members in IT. That if the HD was not found early on, the sandy water would corrode the parts.
Not to say " Foul play" but just as a reminder that he left his way and left things the way he wanted them.
He didn't throw in the laptop's carrying case. He left the case it usually stayed in where it usually was kept, in the top of his closet. Patty got the case down for LE, and we are led to believe that's when she and the policeman witnessed the computer being missing. He may have wanted to delay knowledge of it being missing.
He or someone unscrewed the HD from the case and pulled it out and separated it from the computer body, which was a deliberate act to goof up the HD.

He was meticulous. He wanted the computer gone and destroyed, so he took it to Lewisburg, as he was going there anyway, minus the storage/ carry case, and destroyed it.

It's not a huge piece of valuable evidence, and we determined why a long time ago. It was not a laptop which would have been re- issued to someone else when Ray turned it in upon his retirement 6 months later. It was old and considered to be obsolete.

Whatever was on the HD was HIS intellectual property. He had every right to obliterate it for his own reasons, and for all we know, may have left money somehow with a friend that would have paid the $200 or so for its market value. We aren't privy to much case information, but the fact is, he did a very minor wrong thing if he did destroy the old laptop with no compensation to the county.
If that's the worst thing he ever did, or any of us ever do in the same situation, we are practically saints.

BBM: The physical laptop itself is not the valuable piece of evidence, IMO. The contents of the HD, on the other hand, very well might have been very useful indeed in terms of tracking RG's digital footprints to see what he had been doing and where he had been going in cyberspace in the months leading up to his disappearance.
RG went to great lengths to obliterate his electronic footprints.
His actions related to the laptop are highly unusual, bizarre even.
Barring RG having some type of paranoid psychotic break, IMO, it is almost certain that the HD housed some type of information that was related to his disappearance.

 

[SeekingJana]

BBM: The physical laptop itself is not the valuable piece of evidence, IMO. The contents of the HD, on the other hand, very well might have been very useful indeed in terms of tracking RG's digital footprints to see what he had been doing and where he had been going in cyberspace in the months leading up to his disappearance.
RG went to great lengths to obliterate his electronic footprints.
His actions related to the laptop are highly unusual, bizarre even.
Barring RG having some type of paranoid psychotic break, IMO, it is almost certain that the HD housed some type of information that was related to his disappearance.

My point about the laptop was that the river dumping of both the case and the HD was FOR the purpose of making sure the HD was destroyed, as sand and water, or saltwater, will corrode a HD very quickly. Dumping the case was likely an act of convenience to get rid of the piece.

There is nothing in RFG's actions or behavior to suggest a psychotic break.

He was meticulous, he was a planner, and it is very reasonable to expect that some digital info was either on the laptop or he feared it might not have actually been absolutely erased to the point of non-recovery by professionals.

It was his laptop at that point, his info, his decision to make.
He took it, disassembled the HD from the unit, and deposited both parts in the river. His work, his choice. Not a stunningly unusual action as it did work for his purposes and he likely knew it would, nor a criminal action.

 

[GordianKnot]

My point about the laptop was that the river dumping of both the case and the HD was FOR the purpose of making sure the HD was destroyed, as sand and water, or saltwater, will corrode a HD very quickly. Dumping the case was likely an act of convenience to get rid of the piece.

There is nothing in RFG's actions or behavior to suggest a psychotic break.

He was meticulous, he was a planner, and it is very reasonable to expect that some digital info was either on the laptop or he feared it might not have actually been absolutely erased to the point of non-recovery by professionals.

It was his laptop at that point, his info, his decision to make.
He took it, disassembled the HD from the unit, and deposited both parts in the river. His work, his choice. Not a stunningly unusual action as it did work for his purposes and he likely knew it would, nor a criminal action.

BBMFF: I agree with this, SJ. The difficulty lies in the fact that no one will ever know what was on that HD. The fact that RG managed to obliterate his digital footprint so effectively may in large part be the reason nobody has answers to this day re: why and how he vanished.

 

[SeekingJana]

BBMFF: I agree with this, SJ. The difficulty lies in the fact that no one will ever know what was on that HD. The fact that RG managed to obliterate his digital footprint so effectively may in large part be the reason nobody has answers to this day re: why and how he vanished.

I agree with most of your post as well, GK.
After so many years with this case, I personally do not think we will ever know more about Mr. Gricar's leavetaking unless news of his demise at an old age reaches the investigators. Even then, I'm not sure they will share with the public, because where is the public's need to know? It all depends upon their attitude. They can simply say " Case closed", withdraw his name from the Missing databases, and that's it. I say this because no one has seen fit to honor his life and life's work with any sort of monument or honorary plaque. This is one of my personal deep hurts about him being missing, but apparently, it does not extend to his daughter or her mother, his two closest ties remaining. ( Patty F. moved out of Bellefonte and on with another man elsewhere).

I disagree about the HD being the key or the primary key, though. It might have had Centre Country work notes on it which were transferred to his work computer, or other misc. non- evidentiary info copied to his home desktop computer. We just don't know and we likely never will know, but speculation should cover all the non- evidentiary material a laptop HD can contain as well as speculation that it contained something that would have been a red arrow.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

RFG used it as his home computer until the end of 2004.

Respectfully snipped.

BBMFF: So then why go to the extreme measure of tossing it in the river? RG didn't "clean" the computer, he utterly destroyed it. For 99.99% of the population, using cleaning software would be enough for them to be confident that their electronic data had been scrubbed.

Again, it depends what was on there. He could have had references to informants, for example, and wanted to take the final measure,just to be sure.

ITA w/ you that the laptop may be unrelated; however, I see the probability of it being unrelated as extremely low. Again, JMO. For that reason, illegal activity of some kind is definitely high on my list of what that laptop may have contained. The biggest stumbling block to evidence of illegal activity in my mind is that this was RG's work computer. He was clearly an intelligent man, it's hard to envision him deciding to conduct illicit activities on a piece of public property (if it was indeed property of the county).

I agree that it probably is related, but there isn't enough evidence to say that it was. I can come up with a reasonable theory where destroying the laptop was not related to his disappearance.

He used it as his home computer, so just about anything could have been on there.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The public would be relieved if there was a resolution. Simply, "Gricar was not murdered," would help, at least, to restore any lost faith in the police.

 

[SeekingJana]

The public would be relieved if there was a resolution. Simply, "Gricar was not murdered," would help, at least, to restore any lost faith in the police.

I agree with you, of course. It has crossed my mind that " we" might compose most of " the relieved public" now.
His family and GF certainly moved on, no one has ever sprung for a memorial plaque or service or even a danged rose bush in his name.
( Planting a memorial rose bush might be a Southern thing, not sure).

So, who really thinks about Ray now? Us. Anyone who joins us on this thread. But the public? I don't think so unless the news media write about him for some tangential reason.. You have to look for his name now, you know?

There should be memorial park benches around the court house or in the park which have a notation that they're dedicated to him. And beautiful rose bushes planted around, probably Mr. Lincoln, as it is a very sturdy and hardy long stemmed deep red with a wonderful American history.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Wasn't Ray seen going in and out of his office at odd hours etc..? seems I remember some questionable behavior that was observed on video and commented on by co-workers etc.

I know we went back and forth on a few of these "open to interpretation" pieces to the puzzle.

Correct me if I am wrong on this, could be depression, could be troubled by something, could be both, could be nothing.

MOO

I missed this earlier.

From what we have been told, RFG working late at the office was not unusual. His change in demeanor was noted by a number of people, and was noticed at least as early as March 8, 2005. I have heard it earlier, mid-Febuary, but nothing I could nail down.

PEF reported that was tired and napping.

Yes, both of these things can be symptoms of depression. Note that both depression and suicidal tendencies can be genetic; his brother suffered from depression and committed suicide.

They are the two best arguments for suicide, his demeanor and family history. However, the could be other causes for his change of demeanor, that can be explained in terms of foul play or voluntary departure.

 

[Trackergd]

I think what was on the laptop may have pointed us towards one of the three scenario's.

I put boots on the ground in Lewisburg under almost the same conditions as the day Ray went missing. I walked the park, checked the bridge and the area around it. Checked the SOS and the area around it. Went across the river and checked the area along the far bank and walked most of the abandoned RR right of way from the bridge, East. I also checked the nearby ball park.

Ray would have had to walk a considerable distance to commit suicide and not have his body found. The only other option is the river. The laptop went in the river, the hard drive went in the river. No evidence either way if Ray went in the river, and we may never know unless bones are found downriver.

I intend another trip when I can spend more time, hopefully before the snow or next spring before the undergrowth gets thick. One of the things I look for is a point of egress into the woods. Most people don't blaze a trail into the woods. They follow an already established hiking trail, utility right of way or game trail.

 

[SeekingJana]

I think what was on the laptop may have pointed us towards one of the three scenario's.

I put boots on the ground in Lewisburg under almost the same conditions as the day Ray went missing. I walked the park, checked the bridge and the area around it. Checked the SOS and the area around it. Went across the river and checked the area along the far bank and walked most of the abandoned RR right of way from the bridge, East. I also checked the nearby ball park.

Ray would have had to walk a considerable distance to commit suicide and not have his body found. The only other option is the river. The laptop went in the river, the hard drive went in the river. No evidence either way if Ray went in the river, and we may never know unless bones are found downriver.

I intend another trip when I can spend more time, hopefully before the snow or next spring before the undergrowth gets thick. One of the things I look for is a point of egress into the woods. Most people don't blaze a trail into the woods. They follow an already established hiking trail, utility right of way or game trail.

I can see going to Lewisburg to check out the general " atmosphere", as in, is it a safe little town with nice people, which, given its long and storied history, I'm sure it is a nice little town, and who'd know better than you?

Are you going to look for bones, Tracker? Do the dogs help with that?
At this point, if he died in Lewisburg, there's nothing else left, n'est- ce pas?

Given the history of the Derr founding of the town, ect., do you know people living there currently, if you don't mind saying?

As you know, we've had one poster whom I shall not call forth but who believes a certain Ivy's daughter was serving up more than pancakes to Ray... I wonder where those women are 13 years later? The description is fairly humorous but I never thought there was a word of truth in it all. I mean, there's a reason Dolly Parton has a theme park named for her in the mountains. She made herself into a freak of nature while still having a great talent. Flipping pancakes is not a great talent, though the woman certainly sounded like she fit the other part of the description.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped only for emphasis.

Ray would have had to walk a considerable distance to commit suicide and not have his body found.

I'm wondering how much of a barrier that would be?

There was a pastor that lived in Lewisburg, Jose Rosa, who disappeared in 2009 just before he was charged with CSA. He hung himself in the woods, however, even by straight distance, he walked at least two miles. By road, it would have been just under three miles. Those are minimum distances.
BIG 100.3FM/920am - WKVA | One BIG Hit After Another!

Om 4/15/05, sunset was at 7:46 PM, and twilight ended at 8:15 PM, so RFG could have walked during that period without trouble, 2-3hours, from the last sighting. The moon was 40% illumination, so that could have helped a bit; it was up until after midnight. RFG was a hiker, so walking should not have been a problem.

Conversely, Rosa's remains were found within a year, and people reported seeing him walking on the day he disappeared. Even with that, how much of a barrier would it be for walking?

 

[minazoe]

maybe its hard for me to accept a walk away, because I myself could never do something like that, its such a totally strange thing to do..I get like the fantasy angle but could never do it..never..ever..so in my mind Ray could not either...my Ray is a good guy and wouldn't be able to justify the pain this would cause his daughter..but I guess there could be some
way he could justify , he raised his kid, she's independent, he will leave her a fund..the house was not his so P's life wont change.etc. He went to be a gay man in Miami Beach
and opened a juice bar...stranger things have happened..(look at Olivia Newton John's Bo, he faked his own death and disappeared probably due to $$$ probs.)

but I just can't believe it with Ray. I would love to interview his friends.

and a suicide? no note??? so selfish.

thats me. MOO

 

[SeekingJana]

maybe its hard for me to accept a walk away, because I myself could never do something like that, its such a totally strange thing to do..I get like the fantasy angle but could never do it..never..ever..so in my mind Ray could not either...my Ray is a good guy and wouldn't be able to justify the pain this would cause his daughter..but I guess there could be some
way he could justify , he raised his kid, she's independent, he will leave her a fund..the house was not his so P's life wont change.etc. He went to be a gay man in Miami Beach
and opened a juice bar...stranger things have happened..(look at Olivia Newton John's Bo, he faked his own death and disappeared probably due to $$$ probs.)

but I just can't believe it with Ray. I would love to interview his friends.

and a suicide? no note??? so selfish.

thats me. MOO

We DO have to step outside our personal comfort zones and boundaries to come up with the MOST likely scenario in a missing adult case with no signs of foul play.
Before the Internet, not so much. But the way social media has allowed people who had a crush or special friendship going on half a century ago, reconnect now.

For some people, both male and female, there is a huge amount of stored memories and with the memories, heightened senses of friendships or friendliness through social media, or just emails. The way we get to know or get reacquainted with people has changed and the speed of it has drastically changed.

One last thing: Since we don't know what happened to Ray, and maybe never will, isn't it more comforting to believe he's alive, or was alive for a normal lifespan, in the place of his choosing and living a happy life, rather than keep on talking about a grave, or a nefarious reason why he's not in Bellefonte, PA? Trust me, if there were any leads about what harm could have befallen him, it would be right here on this forum in some form. We can't name people who aren't called suspects by LE, but we would not maintain the illusion that he was alive and well if the evidence pointed to foul play.

Speaking for myself, I'm prepared to hear that he was murdered, or accidentally died just as much as I am that he moved to Philadelphia to live, or a tropical country, or Slovenia, where he has aunts, uncles and other family.

 

[minazoe]

Slovenia isn't on Mars though, I think someone would know he is a missing American.

but I suppose anything is always possible.

MOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped only for brevity.

maybe its hard for me to accept a walk away, because I myself could never do something like that, its such a totally strange thing to do..I get like the fantasy angle but could never do it..never..ever..so in my mind Ray could not either...my Ray is a good guy and wouldn't be able to justify the pain this would cause his daughter..but I guess there could be some

There could be an additional financial motive. If RFG would "die" before he claimed his pension, his heirs would receive a much bigger payout. That could be an additional motive.

and a suicide? no note??? so selfish.

thats me. MOO

If RFG was depressed, he would probably not be thinking clearly. Remember that his brother left no note and that his brother had diagnosed depression.

 

[SeekingJana]

Slovenia isn't on Mars though, I think someone would know he is a missing American.

but I suppose anything is always possible.

MOO

It has been widely reported by family and friends that he spoke both Slovene and Russian.
His surname is Slovenian.

He is a very savvy man. He would not leave without brushing up all his language skills and in- country manners and traits first.
Some people in the US probably act more like they're from Mars than he ever would in Slovenia, if he did go there.

As far as being found, I don't know exactly where his family lives, but it's not a country yet full of USA- city culture.
If he wanted to be slightly reclusive, chances are, he could be without any problem and not be considered " odd".

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just to add a point, RFG had relatives in Slovenia, that he did visit, I think, on at least two occasions. I have heard that some of the family photos in his office were these cousins.

RFG was originally a Russian history major, so he had a passing interest in Slavic culture, at least. He was known to have been interested in Slovenia. It would have been virtually impossible for him not to have known that he was eligible for Slovenian citizenship and that being an American would not be a barrier to him. (People interested in this might want to google "Judge Joseph O'Kicki.")

That does not mean that RFG is in Slovenia, but it would not be too alien an environment. There were circulars on him in Slovenia, in Slovenian, but I don't think they were issued until 2007, and I don't know how widely they were circulated.