Patsy Ramsey

[DeDee]

RSBM

And kids of controlling parents act all sorts of different ways but especially if they were weren't allowed to have something. I remember once as a kid sneaking a box of cookies and eating them all knowing full well we'd get busted by my psycho mother. It's possible.

Are you admitting JBs parents were controlling or that your parents were? I am very sorry your mother was psycho. I do hope you remained unscathed.

Snip

Well let's think of it really. If an intruder came into the house to rob them and they found her awake eating pineapple then they'd not have anticipated that. They might have taken the opportunity for revenge.

Or she snuck down and ate pineapple and went back up to bed before the intruder got there. That's a real possibility. It doesn't take hours to eat a snack.

It is not a real possibility because JonBenét could not open the commercial style refrigerator in their kitchen to reach Patsy's white decorative pedestal bowl. Did JB know where Patsy kept her good silver spoon that was found in the bowl? Besides, what 6yo climbs out of bed alone at night, as tired as she must have been, to go down a flight of stairs for two or three chunks of pineapple?

 

[DeDee]

Don't most parents feed their children fresh fruit all the time? I do.

Politely snipped

Simply trying to find something nice to say about her, ya know.

 

[DeDee]

RSBM

Patsy was doing something to her daughter in the bathroom. Maid would hear JonBenet screaming and crying coming from behind the bathroom door.

RSBM

This treatment of JonBenét occurred behind closed doors the public never saw. You are so right, Linda. There is lots more that happened behind closed doors at the R home than we can imagine. A little girl's life does not end in such a horrendous way when all is hunky dory within the family.

 

[Meara]

The Ramsey's lived in a Tudor style home built in 1927. Patsy spent $700,000 renovating by adding an entire third floor along with other changes like concreting the walls in the windowless room of the basement. Not sure if the sunroom was original to the plans but Patsy likely added this room. Weren't there also two bedroom apartments over their garage that are seldom mentioned?

<snip>

DeDee, from what I've read, Patsy enclosed a porch on the south (patio) side of the house to make the dining room and sun room. The third floor attic was already built but was not well finished. Transforming it into the master suite we see in the pictures required extensive renovation. A previous owner had already extended the original structure to include the "west wing"; that is, the back hall, den, garage, what became JBR's and JAR's rooms upstairs, and so on. Those two bedrooms, each with its own bath, are directly over the garage, so I wonder if those are the "apartments" you're referring to.

This version of the floor plans helps to show how the rooms align.

http://braveheart.users4.50megs.com/ramsey/exploded_view.htm

 

[DeDee]

There is an interesting story I heard about ages ago about Patsy, John and their publicist who were in NYC on tour promoting their book "Death of Innocence" when this particular incident occurred.

This evening I found it again while reading at Women in Crime Ink. Take it or leave it. Believe it or not. In other words, I am not stating this is an accurate accounting of Patsy's behavior.

Cherry said...

My husband, I and our sons sat directly behind the Ramsey's in NY at Annie Get Your Gun.

Patsy and her husband were there with their publicist. They would appear the next morning on Good Morning America to promote their book on their dead daughter.

Patsy's behavior was bizarre to say the least. The publicist sat between them. The husband and publicists acted as if Pasty wasn't really with them. They were overly friendly with each other, holding hands, laughing, whispering, very flirtatious. It was uncomfortable to watch. Pasty trailed behind them during the break, her head hung low, often talking to herself.

We all went to the lobby for refreshments. There Pasty was reenacting the show, singing and dancing, making quite a spectacle and calling attention to her self.

I had felt sorry for her in the theater, as several of the children where her daughters age and blonde. I thought it must be difficult to watch.

Patsy acted like a child, her husband and publicist treated her like one and behaved as if they were ashamed and annoyed with her. I was embarrassed for her and felt there was something very wrong, mentally with her.

I got up early to watch TV the next morning to see if her behavior had changed. It had. The Patsy Ramsey I saw in the theater that night was mentally disturbed. The woman on TV was not. Was she on medication?

What was the purpose of her public display at the theater? The woman I saw needed medical attention.

Why take a chance putting her on TV when she was obviously unstable? Did she see the world as her stage? Was the murder of her daughter her vehicle to stardom? What message were they sending hiring a publicist?

How could John Ramsey flirt so shamelessly with his wife right next to him? They were not acting like grieving parents.

It's left me with a lot of questions in the case. Questions also about how her behavior was brought out. I did read a few accounts of her bizarre behavior a few times but nothing I thought that realistically portrait her as I and my family had eyewitnesses.

I too read Andrew Hodges book. I didn't agree with everything he said but did find much of it interesting. I also find your assessment interesting.

Sad we probably won't know the truth in this case. Sad a murderer of a little girl walks free.

Personally I think there are many secrets the Ramsey's hold that we may never know.

On another note my husband is the same age and had actually gone to the same high school as John Ramsey, they had known each other. My husband had no desire to strike up old acquaintances that night for obvious reasons - we kept our distance.

May 7, 2009 5:24 AM


candy said.... from East Lansing, MI Post #4

"Patsy reenacting the show, singing and dancing", I heard Patsy started doing high school cheerleading songs and dances in the driveway of her home in front of Carol McKinley after being interviewed by Carol McKinley for Fox News.

May 10, 2009


candy from MI posted another episode that had to stun Reporter Carol McKinley. It suddenly reminded me of Amanda Knox turning cartwheels at the police station after her friend, well, her roommate, Meredith Kercher was murdered.

And Jodi Arias stood on her crazy head and was digging thru trash during police interviews after she nearly slit Travis Alexander's head off. Pasty performing cheers and singing is along the same lines as the behaviors of these other women.

 

[Chewy]

There was no body. Nothing. Only a note. Which is why I have trouble understanding why the parents chose to send their only other child away from themselves and police protection. If you don't trust police, that's your choice. But at that time, the Ramsey's had no reason to not trust them (that morning prior to finding the body). They called police themselves.

I think you're confusing things a little bit. BR wasn't going to be taken away to the police station. I said normally those witness to a crime were questioned soon after the crime at a police station or interrogation room. In the Ramsey case, police wanted to ask BR if he had heard anything that night and JR sent his son away from BPD and himself to the Whites without being questioned at the home. I wouldn't send my child alone to a police station either. So why would I send my child to a friend's house without protection? I would want them as close to me as possible. Yes, a kidnapping is traumatic, but there were only 3 people in the home that night to have possibly heard something and one of them was taken away without questioning to an unprotected location while a terrorist group was targeting their family.

I wouldn't want my child to hear anything harmful either, but I know I wouldn't send him away with friends without even asking him if he had heard or seen anything that night. I would want him in the home, in another room, out of earshot of anything bad being discussed. And for the record, the Ramsey's obviously didn't trust the Whites very much considering they labeled them suspects. Which only furthers my point about it being odd that they sent their son with people they didn't completely trust the morning that their daughter was kidnapped by a foreign faction.

I never said your way is wrong, nor did I say my way was right. I explained why I felt the way the way that I did just like you just did. I don't know where you got that from, but I'm sorry you took my post that way.

That's your way. I see it differently and apparently so did the Ramseys so it's irrelevant to discuss what they "should have done" because they didn't do it so what difference does it make.

Second we don't know every single thing that happened between the Ramseys and Burke, we only know what they told us. If they woke Burke up and he said he hadn't seen anything and had slept the whole night, I can see (although I wouldn't agree with it) a parent wanting to preserve that ignorance and prevent him from being forced into an interrogation.

Me personally, I'd be drilling the kid right in front of the police to see if he even "DREAMED" something that might have been influenced by something he overheard while asleep. IOW dreaming of Jonbenet crying or something like that.

Other people may have hypnotized him etc. But some people don't go for those ways of thinking and would just assume that it makes little difference and is grasping at straws.

Again, what you think they should have done is absolutely irrelevant IMO. The only thing that matters when discussing a crime is what actually did happen.

 

[Chewy]

That's a good point - I don't quite understand the dimensions of the house. I grew up in a fairly big house, but by no means a mansion. It was still really easy to hear everything going on. But in this case the kids weren't even on the same floor as the parents' bedroom, right?

Correct

That's true - my mom was really nervous about my weight, and she bought something I liked but I was only supposed to have it at certain times, but when she was out I opened the box and ate some. I was a teenager I think. I actually hoped I wouldn't be caught, but she immediately noticed the box had been opened and had a fit and needless to say that didn't happen again...I think we all test boundaries, but I don't know if that is so at 6 years old. It took me a lot longer to start doing that.

My sister and I were about 6 and 7 when we did it. LOL But it doesn't have to mean it was a forbidden fruit (excuse the pun) it just means Jonbenet ate something and her parents didn't know.

It's true they had a while to come up with answers, but my point is that I don't think the pineapple even registered with them until they were questioned. Why would they be worried about it? Most people don't think about stomach contents in a death unless it is a poisoning. The only reason it was an issue is because it threw a kink in the timeline, but it just probably was not even considered as a possible flaw in the story because its value is so indirect. And assuming someone else was over there doing the cleaning up after the trauma, they probably didn't put it away, so they just probably never thought of it again. I think by the time they realized it was a problem, they were being asked about it, and it would have looked weird to say um let me check with my attorney.

Consider it this way, what is the most likely way to avoid answering a question that you get hit with? "I don't know" or "I don't remember." Additionally police are allowed to flat out lie to people during an interrogation so it may be that they thought the police were trying to throw off their timeline and they just adamantly insisted she couldn't have eaten it herself because they didn't actually believe that they had found it in her stomach.

The police told Patsy Ramsey that they had irrefutable evidence that showed she had committed the crime, which is a flat out lie. She insisted that she didn't care because it was impossible since she didn't do it. She didn't shift and start making excuses which is a common thing for a guilty person who is trying to cover up a crime.

The second one is possible though still seems like a stretch for a 6 year old. The first one doesn't make any sense to me because the idea of this being 'revenge' for something makes no sense to me - I believe that person would have been caught if that were so. You could go with the idea that someone came in to do a robbery and she was unexpectedly up and then something happened because she would recognize him, or something weird like that. But I just think anyone close enough to kill her out of revenge or to conceal an identity woudl have been caught by now

Do you have kids? I don't see how you think this is a stretch for a six year old. Six year olds are first grade students who go to school and eat their lunches by themselves and dispose of garbage in the cafeteria with ease. They don't hire people to clean up a first graders lunch tables. They are completely capable of eating on their own and retrieving food from a refrigerator. My kids could do that from the time they were 4 years old??

 

[Chewy]

Are you admitting JBs parents were controlling or that your parents were? I am very sorry your mother was psycho. I do hope you remained unscathed.

Snip



It is not a real possibility because JonBenét could not open the commercial style refrigerator in their kitchen to reach Patsy's white decorative pedestal bowl. Did JB know where Patsy kept her good silver spoon that was found in the bowl? Besides, what 6yo climbs out of bed alone at night, as tired as she must have been, to go down a flight of stairs for two or three chunks of pineapple?

I'm fine after dealing with psycho mom. Thanks for your concern.


As to your second point then YES the Ramseys are telling the truth, that she could not have opened the refrigerator herself. If that's the case then she must have been given the fruit by someone else. So how does this in anyway implicate the Ramseys?

 

[Chewy]

There is an interesting story I heard about ages ago about Patsy, John and their publicist who were in NYC on tour promoting their book "Death of Innocence" when this particular incident occurred.


[/B][/COLOR]

Snipped for brevity.


I don't know why this is such a mysterious story to you.

A. It sounds like she was drunk and they were embarrassed by her.

B. You answer your own question, she didn't behave this way on television the next day. She seemed like a normal person.

C. Why would they let her go on television if she acted like this all the time? I've seen interrogation videos with Patsy and she didn't act at all like a crazy person. She seemed frustrated but completely sane.


It seems illogical to suggest that the "real Patsy" was the two odd times someone saw her acting weird. Logical would suggest, maybe drunk, maybe adverse reaction to medication, maybe a bad day.

Logic wouldn't suggest that we ignore all the other times we've seen Patsy and decide these two gossipy observations are more valid than the majority of times you've seen her. Not to mention that none of her friends who knew her well have come out, even after her death, and said "She was bonkers to be honest."

 

[lawstudent]

Do you have kids? I don't see how you think this is a stretch for a six year old. Six year olds are first grade students who go to school and eat their lunches by themselves and dispose of garbage in the cafeteria with ease. They don't hire people to clean up a first graders lunch tables. They are completely capable of eating on their own and retrieving food from a refrigerator. My kids could do that from the time they were 4 years old??

I agree it doesn't really make sense for Patsy to lie, but I find it much more believable than an intruder feeding her pineapple.

That leaves her getting it herself and then returning to bed, only to have the intruder come in and get her again. It's certainly possible. I don't mean physically a stretch. I mean that a six year old child getting up in the middle of the night, if we assume this wasn't her habit, opening the fridge, getting on a chair to open the cabinet and grab a bowl, putting a lot of pineapple into the bowl, and eating a few bites, seems a little odd. Not impossible by any means - but strange she'd do that on the one night someone happened to come in - it's just a weird coincidence. If the parents said she did it regularly, I would not think it was weird at all.

And while we don't have evidence that Patsy freaked out on them, everyone talks about how she liked things certain ways. We don't know what she was like in private, and what her particular focus was on. I don't see them described as wild children. To make a 6 year old terrified to get up and eat in the middle of the night doesn't require physical discipline or an immaculate house. It's just about very clear expectations that you will hear about incessantly if you make a wrong move.

 

[Chewy]

I agree it doesn't really make sense for Patsy to lie, but I find it much more believable than an intruder feeding her pineapple.

That leaves her getting it herself and then returning to bed, only to have the intruder come in and get her again. It's certainly possible. I don't mean physically a stretch. I mean that a six year old child getting up in the middle of the night, if we assume this wasn't her habit, opening the fridge, getting on a chair to open the cabinet and grab a bowl, putting a lot of pineapple into the bowl, and eating a few bites, seems a little odd. Not impossible by any means - but strange she'd do that on the one night someone happened to come in - it's just a weird coincidence. If the parents said she did it regularly, I would not think it was weird at all.

And while we don't have evidence that Patsy freaked out on them, everyone talks about how she liked things certain ways. We don't know what she was like in private, and what her particular focus was on. I don't see them described as wild children. To make a 6 year old terrified to get up and eat in the middle of the night doesn't require physical discipline or an immaculate house. It's just about very clear expectations that you will hear about incessantly if you make a wrong move.

Right but all this is again, irrelevant. As you say, we don't know how she was and Pasty and John said she could not have opened the fridge and would not.

As Scarlette has pointed out several times, many parents have come to find out the "could not" and "would nots" turn up in our faces on a regular basis.

I'm still not understanding whether or not she ate the pineapple had anything to do with anything.

As far as her being dead asleep when she came home, I've had MANY incidents with young children, who were sound asleep after we came home from a party or day out. I put the kid straight in the bed and they were sound asleep. Hours later they woke up on their own and went to eat a bowl of cereal. I suppose people are making the leap of it being "oooooh Pineapple" but it wouldn't shock me at all to see a kid get up in the middle of the night and go eat a bowl of cereal. Happens all the time. And they even were able to do it without splashing milk all over the place.

People keep acting like she was 3 years old or something. 6 year olds are first graders and Jonbenet was a trained pageant girl. Obviously she had enough balance and coordination to pour milk into a bowl with a few pieces of pineapple without it turning into a huge disaster.

The only thing I'd be curious about is if she was physically capable of opening that door. If was a heavy handled that required a lot of pressure then perhaps it would be impossible. But just because she hadn't done it before doesn't mean she couldn't have.

And again, it has nothing to do with the crime or alleged cover up.

 

[Tawny]

But, the lies seem to be a matter of RDI interpretation, than they are a matter of fact.
...

AK

Right.

 

[DeDee]

<snip>

DeDee, from what I've read, Patsy enclosed a porch on the south (patio) side of the house to make the dining room and sun room. The third floor attic was already built but was not well finished. Transforming it into the master suite we see in the pictures required extensive renovation. A previous owner had already extended the original structure to include the "west wing"; that is, the back hall, den, garage, what became JBR's and JAR's rooms upstairs, and so on. Those two bedrooms, each with its own bath, are directly over the garage, so I wonder if those are the "apartments" you're referring to.

This version of the floor plans helps to show how the rooms align.

http://braveheart.users4.50megs.com/ramsey/exploded_view.htm

Yep, that's true. Thank you, Meara. Nice version of the floor plans, too. Perhaps it was when the college students rented the home that I read about the two apartments....

This aerial view of the rear of Ramsey home show the two windows above and slightly to the right of the garage door that are JAR (LT) and JBRs (RT) bathroom's windows. This home did not have a natural backyard since it was mostly concrete structures, walkways and patios.

This graphic depicts the proximity of the garage door entry and the spiral staircase John would have used to carry JonBenét upstairs to her bed. It is possible that it was at this point when the greenery from the garland became caught in JBs hair.

 

[lawstudent]

It may have nothing to do with a cover up, and nothing to do with anything at all, but the point is, we know very little about what information is relevant. By no means do I think it is proof of anything. But it is possible it is part of a cover up. We just don't know. Any inconsistency is going to be examined given the mystery surrounding this crime. As I said, I'm not convinced RDI; I was just explaining why people see it as a potential red flag. But as I said, there are a lot of things in this case that could be explained multiple ways (or could be flat-out wrong), and people always want to fit it to what they theorize.

Again, this depends on the family, but no 6 year old in my house ever got up to get cereal. I fully realize that in some families that is normal. But I think that's why some people seem so baffled. I know she is physically capable of doing it, but at 6, I never did anything without asking my parents. I agree we can't say with any real conviction that JB would never do so. It's just that anything abnormal that night is going to be scrutinized. I feel like the fact that a neighbor heard JB scream is really, really iffy. Yet people try and fit a timeline around it and always fit the 'scream' into their story - with many using it to explain why someone whacked her over the head - to silence her. Not every piece of so-called evidence needs to fit into the picture, but people try to make everything significant.

 

[DeDee]

Snipped for brevity.


I don't know why this is such a mysterious story to you.

A. It sounds like she was drunk and they were embarrassed by her.

B. You answer your own question, she didn't behave this way on television the next day. She seemed like a normal person.

C. Why would they let her go on television if she acted like this all the time? I've seen interrogation videos with Patsy and she didn't act at all like a crazy person. She seemed frustrated but completely sane.


It seems illogical to suggest that the "real Patsy" was the two odd times someone saw her acting weird. Logical would suggest, maybe drunk, maybe adverse reaction to medication, maybe a bad day.

Logic wouldn't suggest that we ignore all the other times we've seen Patsy and decide these two gossipy observations are more valid than the majority of times you've seen her. Not to mention that none of her friends who knew her well have come out, even after her death, and said "She was bonkers to be honest."

Chewy, again you have misrepresented my post.

1. I never claimed the stories were a mystery to me.
2. Nor did I pose a question; therefore, could not answer it myself.
3. Nor did I imply in any way that these stories told about the "Real Patsy".

I kindly ask that you refrain from responding to my posts if you intend to continue intentionally misrepresenting my text.

I believe the described behaviors demonstrate two opposing sides of Patsy Ramsey's dual personality.

 

[Frigga]

I am inclined to see Patsy as personality disordered. I am inclined to see John as personality disordered, as well, just a different one.

As is often the case of opposites attracting, I see the very real possibility of Patsy being Borderline and John being a Narcissist.

Borderlines and alcohol- tend not to be a very good mix.

DeeDee, thanks for bringing the anecdotal story of Patsy in New York forward. I had read it previously, but had forgotten.

The big picture- is what I am interested in. Not the highly censored, created, and protected image the Ramsey's would have us all believe. MOO

The friends preparing for the confrontation of Patsy over the Mega JonBenet situation (just prior to JonBenet's brutal murder) is another clue to Patsy's behavior(s) as witnessed by those closest to her at the time. I am interested in the entire picture, so thank you.

 

[Chewy]

No, you shared two examples of gossip from an outside observer with no experience or expertise in psychological evaluation and attempted to equivocate this gossip with evidence of Patsy's "dual personality" which, ironically is just more gossip unless you have a professionally done psychological profile to share with us.

Do you?


You can believe what you like, bias creates many beliefs. But if you share them on a public forum, they are open for evaluation. I prefer facts, not beliefs.

 

[Frigga]

^ I respect your opinion Chewy, mine is different.

 

[gramcracker]

I didn't hire a psychologist to profile one of my friends in high school but I remember what I/the rest of our crowd couldn't help noticing about her:

she couldn't sit or stand still or keep her mouth shut when she was near a guy she was interested in, or a teacher (male or female) who could pull strings for her. she swayed and danced and did cheerleading moves (altho she was not a cheerleader) during otherwise normal conversations, evidently to music no one else could hear. she laughed too often/too loud and she had a lisp which came and went depending on the audience. she was a nice enough gal, which is why we were friends, but she had an irresistible desire to be noticed. not all the time, but really often. the bell would ring after one of those "performances" and she'd go to, for example, debate class and display a steel-trap mind and perfect control of her limbs

she turned that behavior on and she turned it off, and a professional degree was not a requirement for seeing it

 

[DeDee]

I wrote:

There is an interesting story I heard about ages ago about Patsy, John and their publicist who were in NYC on tour promoting their book "Death of Innocence" when this particular incident occurred.

This evening I found it again while reading at Women in Crime Ink. Take it or leave it. Believe it or not. In other words, I am not stating this is an accurate accounting of Patsy's behavior.

And as an addendum, I wrote:

candy from MI posted another episode that had to stun Reporter Carol McKinley. It suddenly reminded me of Amanda Knox turning cartwheels at the police station after her friend, well, her roommate, Meredith Kercher was murdered.

And Jodi Arias stood on her crazy head and was digging thru trash during police interviews after she nearly slit Travis Alexander's head off. Pasty performing cheers and singing is along the same lines as the behaviors of these other women.

What you call gossip are the conclusions reached that others may refer to as theories or suppositions based on analytical thinking. "I believe the described behaviors demonstrate two opposing sides of Patsy Ramsey's dual personality." I do not possess any psychological degrees and neither did the story tellers. However, I can form an opinion based on what I learn. As I said when it was posted, it's an interesting story. Take it or leave it.