PDI and The Abuse?

[ScarlettScarpetta]

In a perfect world yes. Unfortunately in real life it happens more often than we think.

Doctor's can also lose their licenses for prescribing drugs to people for recreational use, too. Yet several due.

If your going to solve this case Scarlet, I'm afraid your going to have to open your eyes to the horrors that are out there in the world. That's the lesson every law enforcement officer learns. Every horrific act you can think of, happens a lot more than you realize.

I am well aware of the horrors of this world, however this case will be solved with good old DNA And reality. Not fantasy and far fetched theories. IMO

 

[THE BUNK]

I am well aware of the horrors of this world, however this case will be solved with good old DNA And reality. Not fantasy and far fetched theories. IMO

Actually this case will be solved ultimately by someone ratting out the killer. Which means this case will utlimately be solved the way all cases are solved...by talking to people. Talk to the detectives, Talk to the neighbors...hell talk to the Burke and John Ramsey. The DNA will only confirm the suspect once he has been identified. Unfortunately you have to identify him first.

 

[Darly314]

Certainly the case in my state, I cannot attest to others. And repeat child abusers tend to not want their children seen in public; Patsy Ramsey adored having JonBenet in front of the cameras. Back to basics, the garrotte; of the three family members, only John Ramsey is LIKELY to have had the skill, and strength. The garrotte is a brutal way to kill, who could have hated that child so much? If Patsy Ramsey was somehow "jealous" of her daughter, making the child ill would have been easier, and less apt to draw suspoion.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Actually this case will be solved ultimately by someone ratting out the killer. Which means this case will utlimately be solved the way all cases are solved...by talking to people. Talk to the detectives, Talk to the neighbors...hell talk to the Burke and John Ramsey. The DNA will only confirm the suspect once he has been identified. Unfortunately you have to identify him first.

Sorry, But we have scientific evidence to solve the case. Rats may be helpful but that won't be the answer here IMO. I think the answer will come from going back and looking at the case in a way that does not involve the R's.

 

[Darly314]

It may be too late for that. And snitches are only listened to if hard evidence backs up their claims; I agree though, the focus on the Ramseys isn't helping. That 'touch DNA' excluded Karr, thus it would implicate the killer. Fiber evidence can degrade a lot faster than DNA.

 

[DeeDee249]

If they were trying to hide sexual abuse why would they take her to peditrician that many times? Every time she went to the doctor there was a chance the doctor would discover the abuse, why would they roll the dice and risk exposure?

There was no risk of discovery. In order to be noticed, a pelvic (internal) exam would have had to be done on JB. The pediatrician admitted he had never done one on JB.
This type of exam is not routinely done on children. It requires the use of a speculum, and the child is usually sedated for that, and may even require hospitalization.
It is no surprise that JB's doctor saw no physical sign of abuse. The truth is- he never looked.
But the coroner, along with SEVERAL experts on child sex abuse and other medical examiners - ALL determined that JB had been sexually abused that night AND on at least one prior occasion (because there was healing that could only have occurred at least 72 hours prior to her death).

 

[Tawny]

The fact that the doctor was a mandatory reporter could possibly explain why he was so adamant that he would "destroy" her records before allowing them to be exposed... he knew he'd be in some deep doodoo if law enforcement learned he didn't report abuse. Just throwing out thoughts.

 

[Tawny]

It may be too late for that. And snitches are only listened to if hard evidence backs up their claims; I agree though, the focus on the Ramseys isn't helping. That 'touch DNA' excluded Karr, thus it would implicate the killer. Fiber evidence can degrade a lot faster than DNA.

DNA was definitely not the only thing that excluded Karr. He wasn't even in Colorado at the time of the murder.

 

[midwest mama]

DeDee: With regard to this from your post,
"They show John the photo of the Santa Suit and JR identifies that is a Santa Suit that they took into evidence. Was John into Santa Suits? John planned a special occasion with his daughter? And included possibly other adults? On Christmas night. With Patsy's blessings.

No.

Surely. No."

I do not believe JR would have included anyone else for the visit with JB. If he was the one who would be giving the "secret visit" after Christmas, dressed as Santa for purposes of special entertainment for JB, he would have planned to do it alone. Without PR's blessings...in fact, thinking PR would never know, not realizing that JB had begun to talk about their special times with her mother.

PR would have been willing to see JonBenet be used to further her (JB's) career as a beauty queen, but not willing to allow John to have her. Big difference for PR in having JB be a "little bit molested" as commented by Gma Nedra, and having her become involved with John.

PR was happy to be able to hammer JR by identifying him as the owner of a Santa suit, but clever enough in doing it by also relating information about him having worn it at a former Access party. LE didn't realize her glee about knowing JR might be squirming about PR identifying something possibly connected to that horrible night.

Responding to postings about Beuf: It is completely believable to me that PR would have had JB treated for her vaginal problems and allow Burke to become the only perpetrator to be put into record. She would never admit to Beuf that she was watching JR like a hawk. And, if Beuf was on payroll for their "group", his job was simply to treat what he saw and keep it as private as possible. Doctor/patient (and legally, parent of child) confidentiality.

For me to speculate that JB was a victim of incest within her family, and include a family connection to an elite group of child sexual activity, I have to include the necessity of a pediatrician being available for treatment of the children in order to keep the problems managed and out of public report.
Ugly truths, yes, but necessities in keeping the groups unknown, according to what I have learned in researching over the past couple of years.

A bit more about the scarf: from what I remember reading, the one Beth gave to JR bore no resemblance to the one he put over JB. But, with the sufferings of JR being so strong over Beth, could there be something to the thought that JR symbolically was expecting JB to give that "beautiful scarf" to Beth as a return gift to her once she met up with her in Heaven? JB had a special angel on her Christmas tree which she kept in remembrance of Beth. There was an angel taken into evidence from the wine cellar.

MOO!!

 

[2 percent]

Ever since this case became CSI: Touch DNA, I started tracking if it has been satisfying the Frye and Daubert standards of scientific evidence in court cases. I'm not liking the trend of lumping touch (LCN) DNA with STR for scientific acceptance when the sample is clearly smaller and contamination doesn't seem as easily detected.

 

[DeDee]

midwest mama wrote,

For me to speculate that JB was a victim of incest within her family, and include a family connection to an elite group of child sexual activity, I have to include the necessity of a pediatrician being available for treatment of the children in order to keep the problems managed and out of public report.
Ugly truths, yes, but necessities in keeping the groups unknown, according to what I have learned in researching over the past couple of years.

Many years ago, I read about the prospective elite group; the secret fat cat members; their secret meetings at secret locations, including there being an emergency type meeting called in the open air, on a mountaintop once.

It is extremely plausible and given the sexual climate of Boulder and the surrounding area known of as Denver, ATT, it is a quite likely possibility. If you have any particular information, a link in PM would be appreciated.

After studying the RN, that theory was mostly abandoned for the PDI because she was mad as he!! at what she perceived as her daughter's betrayal in seducing John? She was her best friend, wasn't she? Patsy bought her daughter a $125 lobster dinner while in NYC. But, she also bought the size 12 Bloomies.


And, then, again, there's this:

There was always something odd about Rod Westmoreland's immediate trip to Boulder from being home for the holidays in Tupelo, MS. Regarding his presence, JR said, it "was no small sacrifice". How did JRs banker, Westmoreland, acquire his wealth? Oh, that's right. He's a Merrill Lynch Exec.

AH reveals his private tendencies in his own movie rentals. Sadly, didn't his son, who was about the same age as JonBenét, overdose on pain killers he took from his daddy's medicine cabinet a few years ago?


http://www.fampeople.com/cat-john-bennett-ramsey_2


ITA about Dr. Beuf. His complicity cannot be understated. Possible imprisonment for failure to report child abuse is a serious offense.

I might be able to understand Patsy allowing JB to be exposed to the pleasure of fat cats, as a way to promote JBs career, if only, JBR needed insider assistance.

JonBenét was going places. Notice the impressive titles she won in the few pageants she entered. Provide the proper lessons to develop her talents and beautiful costumes to tempt the senses and wow the audience; the platinum blonde was on her way to the top ~ as long as she went along with Patsy's plan willingly.

I fear she strayed. She was trained to please. She was young and didn't understand what the consequences would be if she sinned against her mother in order to please her daddy.


OMO that may change without notice.

 

[lawstudent]

Ever since this case became CSI: Touch DNA, I started tracking if it has been satisfying the Frye and Daubert standards of scientific evidence in court cases. I'm not liking the trend of lumping touch (LCN) DNA with STR for scientific acceptance when the sample is clearly smaller and contamination doesn't seem as easily detected.

Some courts have let it in in the last few years.

This has some info on it:

I've found a lot of these blogs can be misleading, though, so I would recommend reading the cases. I'm burned out from studying or I'd look into it more.

ETA: I don't know if that was MSM so I deleted it. But google touch DNA daubert and there's some results. It's an attorney's blog, nothing crazy.

 

[Darly314]

Some courts have let it in in the last few years.

This has some info on it:

I've found a lot of these blogs can be misleading, though, so I would recommend reading the cases. I'm burned out from studying or I'd look into it more.

ETA: I don't know if that was MSM so I deleted it. But google touch DNA daubert and there's some results. It's an attorney's blog, nothing crazy.

The Daubert standard has pretty much replaced Frye; FRE (702) was found to be inconsistent with Frye. The Daubert standard has proven to be "flexible"; to phrase it gently.

 

[midwest mama]

Many years ago, I read about the prospective elite group; the secret fat cat members; their secret meetings at secret locations, including there being an emergency type meeting called in the open air, on a mountaintop once.

It is extremely plausible and given the sexual climate of Boulder and the surrounding area known of as Denver, ATT, it is a quite likely possibility. If you have any particular information, a link in PM would be appreciated.

After studying the RN, that theory was mostly abandoned for the PDI because she was mad as he!! at what she perceived as her daughter's betrayal in seducing John? She was her best friend, wasn't she? Patsy bought her daughter a $125 lobster dinner while in NYC. But, she also bought the size 12 Bloomies.


And, then, again, there's this:

There was always something odd about Rod Westmoreland's immediate trip to Boulder from being home for the holidays in Tupelo, MS. Regarding his presence, JR said, it "was no small sacrifice". How did JRs banker, Westmoreland, acquire his wealth? Oh, that's right. He's a Merrill Lynch Exec.

AH reveals his private tendencies in his own movie rentals. Sadly, didn't his son, who was about the same age as JonBenét, overdose on pain killers he took from his daddy's medicine cabinet a few years ago?


http://www.fampeople.com/cat-john-bennett-ramsey_2


ITA about Dr. Beuf. His complicity cannot be understated. Possible imprisonment for failure to report child abuse is a serious offense.

I might be able to understand Patsy allowing JB to be exposed to the pleasure of fat cats, as a way to promote JBs career, if only, JBR needed insider assistance.

JonBenét was going places. Notice the impressive titles she won in the few pageants she entered. Provide the proper lessons to develop her talents and beautiful costumes to tempt the senses and wow the audience; the platinum blonde was on her way to the top ~ as long as she went along with Patsy's plan willingly.

I fear she strayed. She was trained to please. She was young and didn't understand what the consequences would be if she sinned against her mother in order to please her daddy.


OMO that may change without notice.

BBM above.

1. The reported "closeness" of JB and PR was evident to most who were involved in the things PR and JB displayed to the public. At home JB was able to have conversations with the gardener, visit the Barnhills with Jacques, and be discovered in unusual situations with her brother by the housekeeper. I find it unusual that PR said she kept JB away from playmates on Christmas Day to illness when JR says she wasn't ill. She did later go out and ride her bike. For some reason PR was keeping close tabs on JB that day. I suspect JB's "illness" and time spent in her room was to keep her from saying any more than she suspected JB might leaked out, though innocently, to playmates who might later be able to contribute such as the Kosmaricks (Sp?) did. There was that "little riff" they had later in the day when JB wanted to change her clothes. Tension.

2. Westmoreland said he had been on route to visit his mother after wrapping up Christmas at home with his wife when his secretary called to talk to him about JR's request for the ransom money. Traveling alone, without wife, already underway from his home? No way to dispute his word as to his location at the time he got that call on the morning of the 26th, ending up in Boulder only a few hours later. Merrill Lynch probably had a jet available to him

3. Yes, sad indeed. Another young life crippled and then ended too soon.

4. & 5. IMO, JB was hurting physically from vaginal distress and was not happy about what she thought the next weeks might hold for her physically.
The calls to Beuf on the 17th...attention was needed. JB crying and saying she didn't "feel pretty". Vaginal medications can be pretty messy, not to speak of the pain and itching associated with distress. The 911 call on the 23rd. Another pageant planned right after the two trips. If any child had begun to demonstrate parental defiance against the one responsible for her "grooming", I think "that child" might have been JB. JB cried for more time with her Daddy because she loved him so much. He must have had a very special way of comforting her.

MOO!!

 

[midwest mama]

Something doesn't sit well with me about PR's claim to have colored her own hair on Christmas afternoon. There were gloves draped on JB's bathroom vanity, and a police report said there was ammonia odor in her room, which some connect to that of hair color.

First, a millionaire's wife coloring her own hair? Gimme a break. On Christmas afternoon while other kids are in the house playing with yours? And your daughter is supposedly ill in that bedroom while kids are playing with her brother? Lots of whining from JB I would suspect would not make for a happy mother who is trying to color her hair in the bathroom at the same time and then also have to get it successfully rinsed out on her own in a sink or by getting down into the bathtub. Just can't picture it.

But, I can easily see PR deciding to do JB's hair that afternoon. The ME later commented that JB's hair appeared freshly colored. There is a link on another thread about that.

I would consider it emotionally abusive to make sure your 6 yr. old went through a hair coloring session on Christmas afternoon, since there would have been time before the next pageant after returning home from the Disney trip, to even take her into a salon and get it done.

But maybe PR wanted to make sure she would be as beautiful as possible for that Christmas dinner party at the White's and as she sat and enjoyed a pineapple snack later that evening.

Does anyone know if LE took empty haircolor box/bottle, etc into evidence? The gloves found on the sink would have shown a slight dark discoloration if they were used while using hair coloring dark enough to match PR's. However, light haircolor dye would most likely not have left a telltale stain behind.

 

[DeDee]

Transcript in quotes from:

On A&E, it was called "The Case of JonBenét - The Ramseys vs The Media"
It was produced by David Mills of London.
Michael Tracey of Boulder Colorado was co-producer.

http://www.jameson245.com/doc1of2.htm

JR: JonBenet had gotten a bicycle that Christmas and we played most of the day. We were going to go out to dinner and I can remember we were trying to get everybody organized to leave and JonBenét was on her bike and wanted me to take her around the block. I said, "No - no we don't have time, we'll do that later." She said, "Oh Daddy, please," and I can remember that and that kind of hurts because we didn't do that."

If JRs Christmas Day schedule was to awaken early to open gifts, prepare a large family breakfast, wrap presents, leave around eleven to go to the airport, return around three to prepare for the dinner party; when did JR "play most of the day" with his children?

Also, if JB stayed indoors most of Christmas Day with her mom, then, between 3:00 & 4:00 dressed for the White's; she could have been outdoors riding her bike, just minutes before leaving, while waiting for her parents to depart, for the dinner party. Selfish JR was in a hurry to leave. Hence, sadly, she doesn't get to ride her new bike down the block.

John: Somebody asked me later, what was the worst moment in all of this and that was the worst moment. Suddenly realizing that someone had your daughter, your child, someone has taken her, she’s gone and we didn’t know where she was and it was dark, it was cold outside.

According to his own words, the worst moment of all for John was when he read the RN and realized his daughter was taken and that "she's gone".

It seems the worst moment would be finding JonBenét's dead body, while in full rigor, in the dark windowless room, in that nasty, moldy basement with a cord embedded around her tiny neck.

But, no. John's worst fears were realized the moment he read the ransom note. John knew something hideous had happened to his daughter because of something he had been warned not to do.

OMO

 

[bettybaby00]

Ever since this case became CSI: Touch DNA, I started tracking if it has been satisfying the Frye and Daubert standards of scientific evidence in court cases. I'm not liking the trend of lumping touch (LCN) DNA with STR for scientific acceptance when the sample is clearly smaller and contamination doesn't seem as easily detected.

The IF qualifier is damning. That's all I'm gonna say about that

I want to read up on the studys(s) you've mentioned.

 

[DeDee]

Just my :twocents:

Patsy claimed she colored her own hair in JBs bathroom on Christmas Day. I believe she may have [also] colored her daughter's hair; hence, the excuse for JB not outside playing with neighborhood children.

The AR reads the hair appeared recently or freshly colored, I don't recall exactly.

This photo taken on December 23 at the Rs Christmas party clearly shows precious JB has dark roots that have been allowed to grow for several weeks.

I would not consider that as recently nor freshly applied hair color on December 26 unless, of course, if JBs hair was dyed the day of her death assuring no unsightly dark roots showing whilst on display in the tiny casket.

I would agree that JonBenét's hair was colored on December 25. Or would her hair leave a lingering odor of bleach for the ME to detect?


Now, what significance is placed on the hairstyle at TOD whereby her hair is placed in a blue elastic band and a colored tie at the top of the head and the hair is then gathered at the back of her neck where another blue elastic band holds all of the long hair together?

Was that particular hair style designed to facilitate the act of strangulation? If so, what portion of the evening was the hair styled into the two elastic bands?

 

[midwest mama]

Just my :twocents:

Patsy claimed she colored her own hair in JBs bathroom on Christmas Day. I believe she may have [also] colored her daughter's hair; hence, the excuse for JB not outside playing with neighborhood children.

The AR reads the hair appeared recently or freshly colored, I don't recall exactly.

This photo taken on December 23 at the Rs Christmas party clearly shows precious JB has dark roots that have been allowed to grow for several weeks.

I would not consider that as recently nor freshly applied hair color on December 26 unless, of course, if JBs hair was dyed the day of her death assuring no unsightly dark roots showing whilst on display in the tiny casket.

I would agree that JonBenét's hair was colored on December 25. Or would her hair leave a lingering odor of bleach for the ME to detect?


Now, what significance is placed on the hairstyle at TOD whereby her hair is placed in a blue elastic band and a colored tie at the top of the head and the hair is then gathered at the back of her neck where another blue elastic band holds all of the long hair together?

Was that particular hair style designed to facilitate the act of strangulation? If so, what portion of the evening was the hair styled into the two elastic bands?

The photo of Patsy with JB on Christmas morning, where PR is holding JB by the arm so tightly shows the same type of hair coloration in the root area as the one on the 23rd.

But in looking at the autopsy photos, I see hair which is lighter at the roots around her ear, and very obviously streaked in the back of her head at the nape area. The light streaks are very near the scalp, which would usually mean they had just recently been done. Makes me wonder why the streaks look very recent in the nape area of the autopsy photo, but the Christmas morning photo shows the longer, darker root growth on the top of her head and side near the ear the same as the photo on the 23rd shows, unless the photos are just not showing us very accurately the actual type of coloration near the roots of her hair.

Freshly colored hair would not necessarily leave any telltale odor behind if it was properly conditioned and thoroughly rinsed.

 

[midwest mama]

otg, you are so good at working with photos, could you possibly do some work on JB's haircolor from the photos in question and see if you have any opinions as to whether or not JB's hair could have indicated a color treatment between Christmas morning and the time of her death?