Perhaps she did it for JonBenet

[JMO8778]

Jane, you wrote above that you wondered about aspects of the " accidental murder".

I don't know if I am in the minority in my belief, but I do not think JonBenet's murder was accidental. I have reason to believe it was planned for a few months, probably when the suspicions of incest in the form of a male sexually fondling JonBenet, first entered Patsy's mind.

Several things point to a kidnapping hoax ( body removed from the home and dumped) being planned to cover up a parental murder by Patsy, plus IMO, there are other signs that things were NOT RIGHT in the Ramsey household concerning JonBenet.

I think the pre-Christmas gift choices for JonBenet, chosen by Patsy, even if given to JBR by other family members, are extremely odd for a 6 year old.
1) JBR received a doll for Christmas which was ordered specifically to look just like her. Patsy said later it looked like JBR in her coffin. JonBenet didn't like the doll.
Purpose of the doll: To immortalize Patsy's little beauty queen after her death. A perfect little doll.

2) The ID bracelet she received for Christmas. Kids didn't ask for this type of jewelry in the late 90's. But she got one. Want to know why? So her body could be more easily identified after it was disposed of. I believe this was a preparation to the murder.

3) Likewise, the cross pendant she got for Christmas that year. A symbol of eternal life for Christians. I am a Christian and never gave my children crosses as jewelry, and wouldn't have thought they would like it at the age of 6!! 10, 11 years old or so, maybe.

Things happened which we know a bit about, but not all.
For example, the frequent trips in the late fall to the pediatrician, Dr. Beuf, for treatment of " vaginitis". Patsy knew something was wrong, and JBR had probably told her as best as she could, because they were learning about " bad touches" and " good touches" in her kindergarten class.

The fact that JonBenet's medical records were said to be " stolen". There was also a conflicting report that Dr. Beuf put her records in his bank deposit box. Who knows? Something wasn't right about it all. I think he saw evidence of abuse or neglect or both and failed to report it. As did her school, apparently.

JBR took on an air of being unkempt. Her kindergarten nurse said she was often dirty, underfed, hair not brushed in the AM when she arrived at school. I don't believe it started out this way. I believe she was shunned by her mother for a month or so before she died. The autopsy report speaks of a child's fingernails which had days' worth of crud underneath them. This means she was NOT bathed nor were her hands washed.
She was dressed up and paraded around when she was performing in Patsy's steps as a little beauty queen, but her private life was no picnic. Bleached hair, contact lens, reports of the " flipper" teeth, hair extensions, wearing DIAPERS to the pageants because of toileting regression ( a primary sign of sexual abuse in her age group).
She didn't have her mother's help in the bathrooms at public places and would ask strangers to clean her little bottom. That's pathetic.

Then there are the mysterious and strange things which happened in the Ramsey home in December.
1) The party on the 23rd.. the 911 hang up call, Susan Stine's response when police showed up. JonBenet apparently saying she wasn't pretty. Reports that she cried that night.
2) Don Paugh, her grandfather, flying out of Boulder on Christmas Eve evening for Roswell, GA. Not a regular planned flight but a STANDBY FLIGHT. Who flies standby on Chrstmas Eve????
3) All of the calls and plans to John Achalutta ( ?sp), the Ramsey's private pilot. What was going on? There was a flurry of activity planned, but we do not know if anyone was flown out or in to the Ramsey house.
4) The fact that the Ramseys were going to Michigan, then to Disney World. The journey was to start the next day, the AM of the 26th, where JBR would compete in a well-known pageant, but their plans were sketchy at best. Little to no packing was done. Patsy said that she threw their clothes in black garbage bags.. WHY?
We know they owned luggage. What happened that she didn't have time to pack before Christmas Day??
She said the plastic garbage bags were used to save space in the plane. That's BS. First of all, the space allotted doesn't change. Garbage bags full of clothes? Did she think there was a dry cleaner's open in MI during their hurried meeting with Melinda and John Andrew? Why even go to MI in the first place? Melinda and John Andrew were in GA. So were the rest of their families.
Secondly, there is an absolute weight limit on what can be put into a small private plane. Patsy could not simply stuff clothing into bags and have someone haul them all on the airplane. The baggage had to be weighed. The pilot had to calculate his weight load and distribution.
5) Lastly, the conflicting things Patsy said in DOI about JonBenet at the time on Christmas Day. First, she could not play with her little friends because " She had a cold". She was " in her bedroom in bed".
But, later on that same day, we know that she dressed up and was taken to the White's house, where it is reported that she played with her friend Daphne that evening and ate her last full meal. ( the pineapple being the last food she consumed, contrary to what Patsy said).

I fully believe that the murder was planned by one parent for a period of weeks to perhaps months. Patsy was the tail that wagged the dog in that family. I think John was clueless until well after the fact, probably when he got separate lawyers for the two of them and was able to put 2 and 2 together.

JMO,
Maria

WOW,all good thoughts.I wonder as well.
The bracelet was said to be a gift from Aunt Pam,but who knows.I think Patsy got mad at JB over her not liking the doll though,so if it was planned,perhaps it was done so that day? Let me know what you think,but if she were going to kill her,might she still be mad at JB for not liking the doll?
I have often wondered about the lack of luggage as well.Patsy had ALL day to pack,and other than color her hair and get herself and kids ready for dinner at the White's,what else did she have to do? I mean,she might have yacked on the phone awhile,as it was said they got a few calls,but all day??Plus,IMO I think they got back from the Stine's rather late,so why not leave sooner to finish packing,if she hadn't done so already? In DOI JR says he took some things to the plane,and also that Patsy was packing that day,but both seem like obvious lies (and importantly..excuses),given the lack of luggage found.(or did something else happen to it..did someone leave the house with it??).
Patsy also made mention of putting purple on the tree (by mistake,but was it??)..something about it was the color of death.
JB danced and sang all day the last day she was in her kingergarten class..was it planned as a last performance..one for her school/teachers and friends..as well as Patsy herself..to remember her by?
As far as dad Paugh,either he may have done something inappropriate,or he witnessed something as such,and was asked to leave.
I wonder about her being confined to her room for awhile as well..was Patsy just mad at her,or was it something more going on?
Also the 3 frantic phone calls within 10 mins.to Dr Beuf in Dec.,for which Patsy couldn't recall WHY...
The older kids not coming there for the holidays to meet strikes me as odd as well..I would think that it was certainly not easier to meet in MI.what was going on that made them want to keep others out of the house,or rather...did someone not plan to ever go there anyway???
I wonder if Thomas thinks it was planned as well.

 

[JaneInOz]

WOW

Mouth open tongue hanging out - You guys are so enlightened - its fascinating talking to you all.

I didn't know some of that though SeekingJana...


@ SuperDave (((hugs))) to you .....its not easy is it

And yes I got the Letters in regards to Senile old Believer - very clever :thumb:

@ SeekingJana, in regards to a few of the things you mentioned, I don't think its so far out there for Patsy to have had a doll made to be given to JonBenet a doll that looked like her, she was a narcissistic individual that had to involve herself and run JonBenet's life like she was relieving her own....

i got a id bracelet when I was a kid too..

in regards to the Cross , I gave my children both Diamond encrusted Gold Crosses for their Christenings. so that isnt that unusual ...

Regarding the Paed yes I read that yesterday for the first time, something like 30 trips in 3 years preceding her death.. That is a ridiculously high amount of medical visits, especially being for what they reported for, involving the vagina and so on....But when I was reading that , my thoughts were I wonder if Patsy is so rough with JB when she goes to the toilet, and she rubbed her so hard causing a problem ?
You know the kind of abuse that Christina Suffered in Mommie Dearest - Do it MY WAY or you will pay
The other thing she went for was her nose ? sinus ? wasnt it - that I hazard a guess would be from all that bleaching she was put through - imo that is child abuse (just in a disguise) that would have played havoc on her sinuses and throat and eyes

What is flipper teeth ?

All the other things you wrote , the calls, plane stuff, luggage etc I knew some of that but not all of it..
Ive always wondered what are the Grandparents take on this ? is there two sets of Grandparents ?

I think the Turtleneck situation was VERY Bizarre, given all the money that the Ramsays had I find it highly odd that there had to be a desperate need to wash it (unless it was out of desperation to hide evidence of course - which is the likely lest scenario)

I suppose I find it hard to believe that it could be premeditated and planned by the Ramsays.

IS there any weight in the Satantic Cult Ritual Killing Or Ritual gone wrong theories do you believe ?


My hope is that when JR dies he leaves a letter with evidence proving that PR did it and he helped cover it all up. After all he's dead and the only possible reflection of that confession could be on the son - but I just really hope he decides to clear the air..

 

[SeekingJana]

1) JBR received a doll, which was NOT a play doll. It was for display. She didn't ask for it, and Patsy was said to be upset that JBR didn't like it. Later, Patsy said the doll, still in its box, reminded her of JBR in her coffin.

2) What time frame are we talking about here for ID bracelets and so forth? In the USA, kids haven't work " traditional" adult type jewelry for some years. I definitely believe that Patsy had an aborted plan to dump JBR's body but wanted it found with her " special jewelry" on.. After all, the jewelry was on her body per the autopsy report.

3)Rubbing a child roughly during bathroom time does NOT cause internal vaginal wall epithelial cell erosion in a specific location. Nor would it cause her hymenal tissue to be almost totally eroded. No way.

4) JBR may have had allergies. That's probably one reason they bought her a Bichon Frise dog. They don't shed ( along with Maltese, Poodles, and a couple of other related breeds).
Yes, hair dye and hair bleach would have been a respiratory irritant.

5) Flipper teeth are removable teeth used in child beauty pageants to hide the gaps when kids are losing their natural baby teeth. I am not certain that JBR had a dental appliance. I have seen both that she did, and that she did not.
She DID have blue contact lens, as her pageant related photos show a blue eyed blonde. She was a green eyed brunette.

6) There is one living grandparent that I am aware of, Don Paugh, Patsy's father. He has remarried. His late wife, Nedra, definitely was a loose cannon and said MANY inappropriate things to the media. She said, for example " JonBenet may have been molested a little bit". She also made comments about the size of Burke's penis when he was a baby, toddler, etc. in public. There's more, but not enough space to put all of the strange Paugh family stuff.

To the best of my knowledge, Don Paugh has NEVER spoken to ANYONE about JBR. There was even a rumor that he had tongue cancer and couldn't speak. I think it was satire, because all of the Paugh women did the talking for him. Pam Paugh, the obese unmarried sister of Patsy, was also a Miss WV. Not much is known about Polly, who is the other Paugh daughter and who is married and didn't run her mouth as much. She looks more like Pam than she looks like Patsy did.

The Ramsey family spokesperson ( aside from John) was Jeff Ramsey, John's brother.
There was an intermarriage between John's family....Someone in his family married someone related by blood to his ex- wife. I don't recall the specifics but it was ODD.

Also, with regards to the Paugh household, you do remember that this was the scene for the Fleet White confrontation of John Ramsey, right? A gun was pulled, supposedly by Don Paugh, on Fleet White. Most sources say this is when John and Fleet parted ways. The altercation occurred immediately after JBR's burial in Marietta, GA.

On a related and relevant note, Don Paugh lived most of the year in Boulder in a condo. He was a VP for Access Graphics in Boulder. So, he had close and almost constant contact with Burke and JBR.

7) If a turtleneck was washed ( rinsed out is what I believe Patsy said), the most likely reason was to remove something she didn't want found on it. Period.
Patsy didn't " do laundry" or housework. The house was described as a pig sty, with stuff all over the floor, dishes in the sink for days, Patsy described as dumping the contents of one purse on the floor when she changed purses, etc. Patsy's own shower apparently didn't work at the time of the murder. The house was a total mess and the children were not taught to clean up after themselves. Photos from the crimescene should bear this out if a person knows what an orderly house looks like ( note-0 the kitchen was cleaned up before being photographed by crime victim advocates by mistake) . The exception was when Linda Hoffman- Pugh, the housekeeper, cleaned, which I believe was 3 days a week.

8) NO, I see no evidence that JonBenet was killed by anyone outside her immediate family. No satanic cult, no John Mark Carr, no suicidal " bootman" suspect.

9) The only hope I have for someone talking one day is in Burke. We don't know what he saw or heard, or what he might have known prior to the murder regarding abuse. He was, IMO, a very immature 9 year old at the time. And I am sure he has been " monitored" very carefully by his parent(s).

JMHO,
Maria

 

[Tadpole12]

Jane, you wrote above that you wondered about aspects of the " accidental murder".

I don't know if I am in the minority in my belief, but I do not think JonBenet's murder was accidental. I have reason to believe it was planned for a few months, probably when the suspicions of incest in the form of a male sexually fondling JonBenet, first entered Patsy's mind.

Several things point to a kidnapping hoax ( body removed from the home and dumped) being planned to cover up a parental murder by Patsy, plus IMO, there are other signs that things were NOT RIGHT in the Ramsey household concerning JonBenet.

I think the pre-Christmas gift choices for JonBenet, chosen by Patsy, even if given to JBR by other family members, are extremely odd for a 6 year old.
1) JBR received a doll for Christmas which was ordered specifically to look just like her. Patsy said later it looked like JBR in her coffin. JonBenet didn't like the doll.
Purpose of the doll: To immortalize Patsy's little beauty queen after her death. A perfect little doll.

2) The ID bracelet she received for Christmas. Kids didn't ask for this type of jewelry in the late 90's. But she got one. Want to know why? So her body could be more easily identified after it was disposed of. I believe this was a preparation to the murder.

3) Likewise, the cross pendant she got for Christmas that year. A symbol of eternal life for Christians. I am a Christian and never gave my children crosses as jewelry, and wouldn't have thought they would like it at the age of 6!! 10, 11 years old or so, maybe.

Things happened which we know a bit about, but not all.
For example, the frequent trips in the late fall to the pediatrician, Dr. Beuf, for treatment of " vaginitis". Patsy knew something was wrong, and JBR had probably told her as best as she could, because they were learning about " bad touches" and " good touches" in her kindergarten class.

The fact that JonBenet's medical records were said to be " stolen". There was also a conflicting report that Dr. Beuf put her records in his bank deposit box. Who knows? Something wasn't right about it all. I think he saw evidence of abuse or neglect or both and failed to report it. As did her school, apparently.

JBR took on an air of being unkempt. Her kindergarten nurse said she was often dirty, underfed, hair not brushed in the AM when she arrived at school. I don't believe it started out this way. I believe she was shunned by her mother for a month or so before she died. The autopsy report speaks of a child's fingernails which had days' worth of crud underneath them. This means she was NOT bathed nor were her hands washed.
She was dressed up and paraded around when she was performing in Patsy's steps as a little beauty queen, but her private life was no picnic. Bleached hair, contact lens, reports of the " flipper" teeth, hair extensions, wearing DIAPERS to the pageants because of toileting regression ( a primary sign of sexual abuse in her age group).
She didn't have her mother's help in the bathrooms at public places and would ask strangers to clean her little bottom. That's pathetic.

Then there are the mysterious and strange things which happened in the Ramsey home in December.
1) The party on the 23rd.. the 911 hang up call, Susan Stine's response when police showed up. JonBenet apparently saying she wasn't pretty. Reports that she cried that night.
2) Don Paugh, her grandfather, flying out of Boulder on Christmas Eve evening for Roswell, GA. Not a regular planned flight but a STANDBY FLIGHT. Who flies standby on Chrstmas Eve????
3) All of the calls and plans to John Achalutta ( ?sp), the Ramsey's private pilot. What was going on? There was a flurry of activity planned, but we do not know if anyone was flown out or in to the Ramsey house.
4) The fact that the Ramseys were going to Michigan, then to Disney World. The journey was to start the next day, the AM of the 26th, where JBR would compete in a well-known pageant, but their plans were sketchy at best. Little to no packing was done. Patsy said that she threw their clothes in black garbage bags.. WHY?
We know they owned luggage. What happened that she didn't have time to pack before Christmas Day??
She said the plastic garbage bags were used to save space in the plane. That's BS. First of all, the space allotted doesn't change. Garbage bags full of clothes? Did she think there was a dry cleaner's open in MI during their hurried meeting with Melinda and John Andrew? Why even go to MI in the first place? Melinda and John Andrew were in GA. So were the rest of their families.
Secondly, there is an absolute weight limit on what can be put into a small private plane. Patsy could not simply stuff clothing into bags and have someone haul them all on the airplane. The baggage had to be weighed. The pilot had to calculate his weight load and distribution.
5) Lastly, the conflicting things Patsy said in DOI about JonBenet at the time on Christmas Day. First, she could not play with her little friends because " She had a cold". She was " in her bedroom in bed".
But, later on that same day, we know that she dressed up and was taken to the White's house, where it is reported that she played with her friend Daphne that evening and ate her last full meal. ( the pineapple being the last food she consumed, contrary to what Patsy said).

I fully believe that the murder was planned by one parent for a period of weeks to perhaps months. Patsy was the tail that wagged the dog in that family. I think John was clueless until well after the fact, probably when he got separate lawyers for the two of them and was able to put 2 and 2 together.

JMO,
Maria

Hi Maria. I've gotta triple wow your post. Ty for laying out the 'premediated' theory.

Ya, @ Jane, it is a jaw dropper. So much to contemplate.

One thing for sure ..... ID bracelets and jewelry are not a good
idea for children or young women. For personal safety ...false sense of security when someone knows your name.

 

[DeeDee249]

My daughter agrees- she won't allow her young son to wear personalized clothing. His name is inside his outerwear for pre-school, and on a small tag on his backpack and lunchbox. But nothing obvious, like on a shirt or hat.
However, I do know people that give very young girls jewelry. My daughter was given a tiny gold bangle bracelet at birth (she didn't wear it till she was 2) and she had pierced ears at age 6 (her request) in which she wore tiny birthstones.
For the kind of showy person PR was, and because I have read that both she and Nedra really though BIG diamonds were important (Nedra once said to someone, upon seeing their engagement ring, that it was a "nice starter ring") I think that a gift of gold jewelry or the fact that JBR had likely worn her new ring, bracelet and gold cross to the White's is not all that unusual in the R world.

 

[JaneInOz]

For the kind of showy person PR was, and because I have read that both she and Nedra really though BIG diamonds were important (Nedra once said to someone, upon seeing their engagement ring, that it was a "nice starter ring") I think that a gift of gold jewelry or the fact that JBR had likely worn her new ring, bracelet and gold cross to the White's is not all that unusual in the R world.

Thats what i meant too.

In regards to ID bracelets ? im not sure if we are all talking about the same thing ?
I had a silver one (ick to the silver) when i was about ? 10 or so I think and it had my name on it - just my first name and love mum and dad on the back...
With Christenings here, children are often give a bracelet with their name engraved on the front...
Thats what I think of in regards to an ID bracelet ? do you guys have the full works with full name and address or something ? - that i agree is a ODD Christmas present for if a parent wanted to do that for safety reasons then they should give it at anytime not as a present..

@ seekingjana - The doll thing, I still don't really get, its not an overly weird thing for someone as trashy as PR to do - I have bought my daughter dolls that are display dolls...but granted they weren't a replica of her Although I did get one that had her name and same colour hair LOL...But again I didnt give it as a Christmas present or bday I gave it at a non specific time, as a special thing for her to keep...

Regarding the Aborted dump of body plan - how on earth was she going to get out of the house without anyone seeing ? and go bury or dump a body ? with all that snow ? I think her husband would notice her missing from the bed ?IT doesnt make sense to me, that she was going to try and dump the body outside the house

I thought the damage inside the vagina was from that night that JBR was murdered ? Her hymen was only partly broken wasn't it ?

So someone was supposedly sexually abusing her ? Ive seen talk about it being the father and then ive even read where people say it was the mother ?

With regard to the family, I only knew about the weirdo sister with a big mouth.
I did not know all that other stuff and NO I didnt know about the gun incident ? so was that ever said why that happened ?


Thanks for explaining about flipper teeth, my god the things that girl had to go through..

How odd that the house was in such Chaos like that when Patsy put on such airs and graces.. And yes I did see the house photos but thought maybe that was after everyone had been through and trashed the place..


Where is burke these days ? and John Ramsay ? what sort of lives are they living do you know?

Thanks for all the info, im sure it must get boring repeating it for new people that come on here and the questions have been asked a gazillion times

 

[Tadpole12]

Regarding the Aborted dump of body plan - how on earth was she going to get out of the house without anyone seeing ? and go bury or dump a body ? with all that snow ? I think her husband would notice her missing from the bed ?IT doesnt make sense to me, that she was going to try and dump the body outside the house - JaneinOZ

Ya that's another stumper. I wonder, (if you follow the RDI theory, that they were both culpable) .... It's been suggested that the suitcase near the window might have been a means, various posters have suggested that the would have somehow? brought the body on their flight, I wonder if the Ramsey's believed that the Ransom note would prevent the police from searching their home and that they would somehow have that opportunity, unobserved. Yet JR was focused on making that flight that day, even with his daughter missing and then found dead.

 

[JaneInOz]

Regarding the Aborted dump of body plan - how on earth was she going to get out of the house without anyone seeing ? and go bury or dump a body ? with all that snow ? I think her husband would notice her missing from the bed ?IT doesnt make sense to me, that she was going to try and dump the body outside the house - JaneinOZ

Ya that's another stumper. I wonder, (if you follow the RDI theory, that they were both culpable) .... It's been suggested that the suitcase near the window might have been a means, various posters have suggested that the would have somehow? brought the body on their flight, I wonder if the Ramsey's believed that the Ransom note would prevent the police from searching their home and that they would somehow have that opportunity, unobserved. Yet JR was focused on making that flight that day, even with his daughter missing and then found dead.

Ah yes I meant to ask about that suitcase...where did it come from ? what was it for ? whose was it ? etc

Was it conveniently staged their by the Ramsays as to trying to show that someone got in and out ? ( but they forgot about the snow factor)

I think that dogs at airports would have smelt a dead body in a suitcase

 

[JMO8778]

if I may ?
As far as Patsy being a slob,the house being a wreck,etc...Patsy exhibited signs of bipolar disorder,something poster Coloradokares and I both have personal experience with.we both recognized the descriptions of it in Patsy.it's quite unmistakable.like when she spent over $30,000 on a luncheon,complete w actors and actresses to play Scarlet and rhett.this is something a hypomanic/manic person would do.(it's not just this,there were other signs as well,something her housekeeper noticed in her extreme moodiness not long b/f the murder).it's also not uncommon for some persons w this disorder to have a co-dx of ADD/ADHD (attention deficit disorder).thus the extreme messiness and total disorganization.it's not that they set out to be this way..they get to thinking they're superman/woman,get too many irons in the fire..so to speak,until they can't keep up with it all,and like a house of cards,it all starts to fall apart very quickly (sounds like the difference between JB's private life and the one that was put on display for the public).I feel sure that John probably had no idea what he was dealing with in terms of what was going on with Patsy (I know,I've been there),until it was too late.It's also not uncommon for the mood swings to cause homicidal and or suicidal feelings in someone who wouldn't ever normally consider committing these acts.
I don't think it's incidental that not only did the housekeeper note a huge change in Patsy's mood shortly bf the murder,some of her friends did as well,and had planned an intervention for her after Christmas.it was said they were concerned about the 'mega-Jonbenet' thing she was creating,what with the addition of platinum-blond hair,sexy outfits and walks,makeup to look like an adult,etc. (I think this was manic behavior as well,ie-overdoing it).When even outsiders notice a huge change in someone,it signals a huge red flag in someone like Patsy,who displayed other signs and symptoms as well.
Just some things to think about.

 

[SeekingJana]

I don't know if you knew Patsy, since you are able to give her a psychological diagnosis in absentia, but she would have loved to have you as her friend and supporter.

BTW, I disagree with your assessment. If anything, she displayed extreme narcissistic tendencies, but there is no evidence of either mania or depression before JBR was murdered.
They were millionaires in the 1990's. They had every right to live a lavish lifestyle if they ( she) wanted to, because they could afford to.

As far as her lack of cleanliness, it all goes back to what she was taught at home as a child, and her later sense of entitlement as an adult.

I'm sorry that you have had to deal with a serious mental illness, but I do not believe Patsy was Bi-Polar. JMO from another viewpoint.

Maria

 

[JMO8778]

Regarding the Aborted dump of body plan - how on earth was she going to get out of the house without anyone seeing ? and go bury or dump a body ? with all that snow ? JaneinOZ

I think the ransom note shows a previous plan that there was intention to get the body out of the house...'deny her remains' as it states (along with other pertinent lines).John trying to account for his prints on the walk-in fridge makes me think they'd thought of putting her body in there until they could get it out of the house.
but for whatever reason,they nixed that idea.perhaps it was just a panic-driven first thought,but not something they could actually carry through with in the end.or perhaps they just ran out of time.
how they would do it..I don't know.trunk of the car seems likely,since the note also said 'if we monitor you getting the money early'..keyword early (trying to account for being seen outside the house early morning).
Patsy suspiciously still had her jacket on,as per the fiber evidence.so was she planning on leaving the house? Just something to think about.

 

[JMO8778]

..not making excuses for her jana,but yes,I do agree she had a personality disorders as well,perhaps more than one.some think she was sexually abused growing up,which could lead to that.but yes,unfortunately,IMO,I do think she displayed signs and symptoms of BPD.she may have been on the klonopin as well.and if she was drinking that night too,none of it would have made for a good mix.

 

[JaneInOz]

I think the ransom note shows a previous plan that there was intention to get the body out of the house...'deny her remains' as it states (along with other pertinent lines).John trying to account for his prints on the walk-in fridge makes me think they'd thought of putting her body in there until they could get it out of the house.
but for whatever reason,they nixed that idea.perhaps it was just a panic-driven first thought,but not something they could actually carry through with in the end.or perhaps they just ran out of time.
how they would do it..I don't know.trunk of the car seems likely,since the note also said 'if we monitor you getting the money early'..keyword early (trying to account for being seen outside the house early morning).
Patsy suspiciously still had her jacket on,as per the fiber evidence.so was she planning on leaving the house? Just something to think about.

I think that if indeed PR wrote the note which is a strong possiblity that the whole *deny her remains* and so on is just what she thought would be in a kidnapping note... In regards to the Ransom LETTER (hardly a note) as I stated before that was rather *crazed* I dont think it was a carefully planned note, hence the false starts , and hence the repeated "she will die"
The Letter (note) was so DRAMATIC and truly PR Style

In regards to the Fridge I read (somewhere) that there was a possibility of a) her body being initially put in there so when the other person was looking in there that is why they said they saw nothing b) the fridge was in front of her body and thats why the Scrape Scrape Scrape sounds were heard..

As a side note have you read this piece fromn this lady (who is now dead) webpages ? http://www.geocities.com/Area51/nebula/9337/canvas.html

That is sooo interesting ...

There is also this http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Patsy Ramsey with all the different theories offered up, some so plausible and some laughable..

Im wondering , you know how they were cleared after 12years because of a minuscule DNA belonging to someone else - whose to say that wasn't their before or after ? but nothing to do with during...there was no footprints in the snow, it seems impossible that anyone else could have been there during ...
I don't understand how the police didnt immediately dismiss an intruder due to no marks in the snow outside the house

 

[BBB167893]

@ SuperDave (((hugs))) to you .....its not easy is it

Awful is not the word for it.

And yes I got the Letters in regards to Senile old Believer - very clever :thumb:

It was off the cuff.

Regarding the Paed yes I read that yesterday for the first time, something like 30 trips in 3 years preceding her death.. That is a ridiculously high amount of medical visits, especially being for what they reported for, involving the vagina and so on....But when I was reading that , my thoughts were I wonder if Patsy is so rough with JB when she goes to the toilet, and she rubbed her so hard causing a problem ?

I believe Dr. Richard Krugman would agree with that.

Ive always wondered what are the Grandparents take on this ? is there two sets of Grandparents ?

I believe both of John's parents were dead and Don and the now late Nedra have said very little.

I suppose I find it hard to believe that it could be premeditated and planned by the Ramsays.

Not impossible.

IS there any weight in the Satantic Cult Ritual Killing Or Ritual gone wrong theories do you believe ?

None from me.

My hope is that when JR dies he leaves a letter with evidence proving that PR did it and he helped cover it all up. After all he's dead and the only possible reflection of that confession could be on the son - but I just really hope he decides to clear the air..

I hold very little hope of that.

 

[BBB167893]

Regarding the Aborted dump of body plan - how on earth was she going to get out of the house without anyone seeing ? and go bury or dump a body ? with all that snow ? I think her husband would notice her missing from the bed ?IT doesnt make sense to me, that she was going to try and dump the body outside the house

I think that's why they aborted it in the first place, Jane.

I thought the damage inside the vagina was from that night that JBR was murdered?

Not according to some of the experts. John McCann said the abuse went back ten days at least.

Her hymen was only partly broken wasn't it ?

What was LEFT of it! There was hardly any left to break!

So someone was supposedly sexually abusing her?

Right.

Ive seen talk about it being the father

From a purely evidentiary standpoint, it could have been one of several people. I happen to think it was the father, given all of the other things.

and then ive even read where people say it was the mother?

Well, in that regard, it wouldn't be sexual, but physical abuse.

Where is burke these days ?

College last I knew.

and John Ramsay ? what sort of lives are they living do you know?

Much better than they deserve!

 

[BBB167893]

Im wondering , you know how they were cleared after 12years because of a minuscule DNA belonging to someone else - whose to say that wasn't their before or after ? but nothing to do with during...there was no footprints in the snow, it seems impossible that anyone else could have been there during ...

It helps when the DA has an agenda.

I don't understand how the police didnt immediately dismiss an intruder due to no marks in the snow outside the house

That's an even longer story. And you have to distinguish between the police and the DA's office.

 

[DeeDee249]

Re the doll- The doll in question is called a "My Twinn" doll. They are now made by Mattel, but originally they were custom- made to order from a photograph of a child. The early dolls looked eerily like the children they were meant to portray. They were considered "portrait dolls". I always thought the My Twinn dolls were a bit creepy. Here's a link if interested- http://www.mytwinn.com

As far as the walk in fridge- don't confuse that with the freezer in the basement. The walk-in fridge is in the kitchen, and can be seen in some crime scene photos of the house. I do consider it odd that JR made a point of "explaining" his prints on it. After all, it was his house- why would his prints need explaining? Maybe the pineapple.
The basement freezer was not in the wineceller, but in another room in the basement. It may have been in the boiler room. The freezer would not have blocked her body from view. It also would not have been the cause of the scraping sound heard by the neighbor. The fact that FW didn't see her when he looked in there earlier means (to me) that either he just didn't see her, or she wasn't there when he looked. If she wasn't there, then JR put her there during the considerable length of time he "disappeared" and Det. Arndt couldn't account for his whereabouts. I think I read that the Rs didn't have the basement freezer plugged in, so I suppose she could have been placed in there.
If her body had been placed in a freezer any length of time, the coroner should have been able to tell. Freezing changes tissue. If she'd been refrigerated, that would also affect the onset of rigor mortis, and actually would mean that she died even closer to the arrival home than thought, possibly around 10-11 PM.
But I really don't think she was in a freezer, fridge, suitcase or anywhere else. There are two reasons why. One- livor mortis begins soon after death and becomes fixed after a while. If the body had been moved, there'd be 2 livor patterns, and JBR had only one, on her back and the right side of her face. This means that she had not been moved since being placed on her back when she died. The second is that rigor mortis also becomes "fixed" after a while and she would have stayed in whatever position (bent or curled up) she had been in when she was removed from the fridge or freezer. Neither hiding place allowed for her being placed lying down with legs straight out and arms up. The facts suggest she was placed on her back in the wineceller very soon after death.
The scraping sound is thought by some to be the sound of the paint cans (that were in the wineceller and can be seen in some photos) having been pushed aside to make room for her body to be placed there. I don't think she was killed in the wineceller. I think the head bash happened upstairs and she was then carried to the basement- the garrote made right on her neck as she was unconscious, just outside the wineceller. There were carpet fibers matching the carpet on the floor outside the wineceller found on JBR.

 

[wedavis]

I was just reading a post on Forum for Justice. And since I can't register there (for whatever reason) and post I want to ask about something I read there:

According to one poster J & P were on the floor when reading the RN and when placing the 911 call. No one has theorized that (if this is true) this might be because they were scared they could be seen through windows. I hate to theorize this because I believe the R's are guilty, but it would make sense...

As for the missing duct tape and cord: what about the idea that if cut up they were both probably flushable? Except the cardboard roll of course.

Or for that matter they had fireplaces, could those things been burned?

 

[JaneInOz]

@DeeDee ah that makes sense thanks for giving me that info..

@wedavis - not sure on the floor scenario you speak of, but one of those links above talks about how Patsy paints and how the prints are slung and how the sister came back the next day AFTER the murder for a painting. Why did Patsy have to have that painting ?
Anyway this person therorised that it was for the fact that is where the cords came from and the duct tape was in her Coat as she passed through all the people outside ( as in patsy when she left the house)

Its in a link above - oh this one - http://www.geocities.com/Area51/nebula/9337/canvas.html

 

[JaneInOz]

Has anyone read this ? http://conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=36&contentid=3887
in its entirety ?

WOW to some of that theorizing - Im still reading it so will comment later - but interesting about the snow ? that the photos / coverage was 2-3 days later when snow goes..

We don't have snow here ! so I have no idea , except I do know when you walk on it it leaves footprints