GUILTY Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #24

[otto]

Just to second what otto said, Aruban and Dutch law do indeed recognized circumstantial evidence. The problem with the Natalee Holloway case is the almost complete lack of circumstantial evidence.

Our "gut reactions" are not circumstantial evidence. Circumstantial evidence deals with facts inferred indirectly from evidence of a crime. The problem in Aruba has always been the lack of anything to indicate a crime was committed. The exception of course is that NH is missing and few of us believe she would willingly run away; but that isn't evidence, direct or circumstantial, that JVDS (or anyone else) killed her.

It is probably fair to assume that she is dead, but how that happened is a mystery to me. I was stunned (I don't think I'm alone in this) when Stephanie was murdered and especially with the overwhelming evidence that pointed to Joran. This was nothing like the disappearance of Natalie where not a shoe, a hotel card, or anything of her ever surfaced. It does lead me to believe that Natalie died the same way as Stephanie ... no accident, no sexual assualt, no death by overdose and convulsion. A violent death explains why Joran had to make her disappear. As I said above, there is no reason to make an accidental death disappear. If Natalie had the type of injuries that Stephanie had, Joran would have wanted to hide the murder and never let anyone know what he did ... but how he did that ... I don't know.

 

[Nova]

I'm sure otto understands Aruban and Dutch law better than I, since he speaks Dutch. But in many, if not most, jurisdictions in the U.S., giving an unsuspecting victim a roofie DOES make one guilty of felony murder if she dies as a result. And being 17 is no protection from being charged as an adult.

All of this may not apply in Aruba, but it would be hard to argue mitigation under U.S. law.

 

[Nova]

It is probably fair to assume that she is dead, but how that happened is a mystery to me. I was stunned (I don't think I'm alone in this) when Stephanie was murdered and especially with the overwhelming evidence that pointed to Joran. This was nothing like the disappearance of Natalie where not a shoe, a hotel card, or anything of her ever surfaced. It does lead me to believe that Natalie died the same way as Stephanie ... no accident, no sexual assualt, no death by overdose and convulsion. A violent death explains why Joran had to make her disappear. As I said above, there is no reason to make an accidental death disappear. If Natalie had the type of injuries that Stephanie had, Joran would have wanted to hide the murder and never let anyone know what he did ... but how he did that ... I don't know.

I don't know if anyone will ever be able to prove it in NH's case, but I suspect you are 100% right, my friend. (My only qualification is whether death-by-rohypnol would be considered "accidental" in Aruba. It would not be in the U.S. (unless it could be proven the deceased willingly took the drug).)

 

[otto]

Otto I know you are reporting what others have said, so this isn't a quarrel between you and me.

But I do want to add that JVDS MET BH while he was engaging in illegal, underage drinking and gambling, so I don't buy the theory that he was a choir boy unfairly hounded into psychopathology by the mean old unrelenting Twittys! (Frankly, I think if JVDS had shown an ounce of concern for a missing girl, he and the Twittys might not have been at odds in the first place.)

I get the impression from things NH's parent have said that they believe she had a bad reaction to the date-rape drug and her wrongful death was covered up to protect the son of a prominent Aruban.

But I am intrigued by your point that we now may have two instances where JVDS lashed out lethally and without much provocation. Perhaps there is something in his make-up we don't really understand yet. (FTR, I don't think it can all be blamed on media pressure.)

Beth seems to have an entire scenario (her book) about Natalie that involves illegal drugs, sexual assault and accidental death ... but there is not one piece of evidence to support that belief. Even if Natalie did have a date rape drug in her system, there would be no way to connect it to Joran ... since Natalie was in a bar for a couple of hours before Joran met up with her.

The interview that Joran has with the Dutch TV guy Jaap is really interesting. You can see Joran go from calm to crazed in less than a minute. It's the interview where Jaap is going to reveal the polygraph results and the first thing they tell him was that he was constricting his sphincter (which apparently throws results).

Not sure if this link works: [ame="http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t189/zed0101/?action=view&current=Joran_22_Sec.mp4"]Joran_22_Sec.mp4 video by zed0101 - Photobucket@@AMEPARAM@@http://vid160.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid160.photobucket.com/albums/t189/zed0101/Joran_22_Sec.mp4@@AMEPARAM@@vid160@@AMEPARAM@@160@@AMEPARAM@@t189/zed0101/Joran_22_Sec@@AMEPARAM@@mp4[/ame]

 

[otto]

One does not always make wise decisions when attempting to protect their offspring. One only has to look at the Anthony family as an example - since we're citing cases here.

I believe the elder VanderSloots thought the 'incident' with Natalee was just another teenage squirmish in a long line of incidents their son got himself involved in and that it would all be brushed aside and forgotten about given time (and given PVS's in standing in the legal community). They severely miscalculated Beth Holloway's tenacity.

Yes... calling the authorities would have been their best option. But they chose not to do that. Instead they adopted the 'no body - no crime' stance and by the time they figured out this little problem was NOT going to just go away, it was too late to do the right thing. To admit anything other at this point would be an admission of thier own cover up attempts. "In for a penney, in for a pound", as the old saying goes.

I have no problem believing that they did, indeed, risk everything to protect their son.

I wouldn't even put the Anthonys on the same planet as the van der Sloots in terms of how they have dealt with their individual tragedies.

Before we speculate on what the van der Sloots may have done if they were aware of any involvement Joran may have had with Natalie's disappearance, can we have one piece of evidence connecting them? If not, then it's speculation ... entertaining, but not productive - in my opinion. We could start with the fact that one of the parents wasn't even in Aruba when Natalie disappeared ... so it's a real stretch to accuse the mother of involvement.

 

[otto]

I've seen both the photo and the video where he looks up and obviously sees the camera. He has a distinct, "oh crap!" look on his face at that precise moment. (Sorry, I don't have time to run down the video right now.)

No one is claiming he has an organized mind - at least, I don't.

I'd like to see that ... do you have a link?

Organized ... meticulous attempt to cover up the crime.

 

[otto]

I don't know if anyone will ever be able to prove it in NH's case, but I suspect you are 100% right, my friend. (My only qualification is whether death-by-rohypnol would be considered "accidental" in Aruba. It would not be in the U.S. (unless it could be proven the deceased willingly took the drug).)

I don't see how date rape comes into this ... we don't have anything to connect Joran to date rape drugs. After Stephanie's murder, I see this as a violent, sudden anger that resulted in Natalie's murder ... nothing soft in her death at all, although Beth does seem to want to believe that it was a soft death ... soft in the sense that death by date rape drug seems like a soft death.

Also, it would be very easy for a defense lawyer to argue that Natalie was slipped the drug at the bar before Joran arrived ... no reason to hide a death by date rape drugs.

 

[Nova]

Beth seems to have an entire scenario (her book) about Natalie that involves illegal drugs, sexual assault and accidental death ... but there is not one piece of evidence to support that belief. Even if Natalie did have a date rape drug in her system, there would be no way to connect it to Joran ... since Natalie was in a bar for a couple of hours before Joran met up with her.

The interview that Joran has with the Dutch TV guy Jaap is really interesting. You can see Joran go from calm to crazed in less than a minute. It's the interview where Jaap is going to reveal the polygraph results and the first thing they tell him was that he was constricting his sphincter (which apparently throws results).

Not sure if this link works: Joran_22_Sec.mp4 video by zed0101 - Photobucket

I don't know them and I certainly could be wrong, but I suspect BHT and DH think NH was unknowingly drugged because her running off with three strangers as the bar closed seems so out of character for her. Of course parents like to thinks the best of their offspring, but NH had been in Aruba for a week without doing anything remotely as reckless, IIRC.

However, you are right, of course, that that is far from proof that JVDS secretly slipped NH a drug.

 

[suzihawk]

I wouldn't even put the Anthonys on the same planet as the van der Sloots in terms of how they have dealt with their individual tragedies.

Before we speculate on what the van der Sloots may have done if they were aware of any involvement Joran may have had with Natalie's disappearance, can we have one piece of evidence connecting them? If not, then it's speculation ... entertaining, but not productive - in my opinion. We could start with the fact that one of the parents wasn't even in Aruba when Natalie disappeared ... so it's a real stretch to accuse the mother of involvement.

Of course it's speculation since the case is still unresolved. Never the less, it's my speculation and opinion. The mother didn't need to be on the island in order to be involved in a cover-up plan. It's not as if she was unable to communicate. It's also my opinion that she was fully apprised of the situation as it was unfolding, if not calling the shots.

I'd like to see that ... do you have a link?

I'll try to dig it up but it may take some time. I'm multitasking at the moment.

 

[otto]

I don't know them and I certainly could be wrong, but I suspect BHT and DH think NH was unknowingly drugged because her running off with three strangers as the bar closed seems so out of character for her. Of course parents like to thinks the best of their offspring, but NH had been in Aruba for a week without doing anything remotely as reckless, IIRC.

However, you are right, of course, that that is far from proof that JVDS secretly slipped NH a drug.

She may well have been drugged and the combination of lack of sleep and alcohol ... with a date rape drug ... could have caused Natalie to decide to leave with Joran and the Kalpoes, but any defense lawyer could argue that someone else slipped her the drug before Joran arrived. If Natalie died because of that combination of factors, it would not implicate Joran ... and if a prosecutor was aware of an accidental death of that nature, that is the first thing he would have said.

 

[otto]

Of course it's speculation since the case is still unresolved. Never the less, it's my speculation and opinion. The mother didn't need to be on the island in order to be involved in a cover-up plan. It's not as if she was unable to communicate. It's also my opinion that she was fully apprised of the situation as it was unfolding, if not calling the shots.



I'll try to dig it up but it may take some time. I'm multitasking at the moment.

Speculation that Natalie died in the same way as Stephanie makes sense to me because the same person is accused ... speculation that the parents were involved in covering up a murder doesn't seem to be based on anything except an inability to explain how Joran made Natalie disappear. Everyone knows that's a problem ... but cooking up a scenario that blames the parents just doesn't work for me.

 

[annalia]

Natalie completely vanished off the face of the earth. That, to me, is a rather perfect vanishing act. We don't know what happened to her. There has been all sorts of speculation, but that's it. There is no evidence that she was murdered, raped, or anything else.

What I was saying is that some people believe that because Joran was harassed about Natalie's disappearance since the day Natalie disappeared, he changed. The future that he had prior to Natalie's disappearance vanished with her. He was pursued by Natalie's mother, a Dutch journalist and pretend friends that were only looking to set him up. Some people believe this led to Joran spiralling into drinking and gambling, eventually snapping 5 years later. Joran would not have been in Peru if Natalie's mother had not given him money for the trip. I know that there are allegations of extortion, but if one listens carefully to the interviews with Peter, it's clear that Joran contacted Beth for money, and then canceled the deal. He discontinued contact with Beth without money changing hands. It was later that Beth contacted him and offered him $10k for information. He had been offered money for information many times. He always accepted the money and always told a lie. He did this again when Beth offered him $10k. Point being, that he was still being pursued by Beth and Peter years after Natalie disappeared ... and some people believe that led to a kind of mental illness. I'm not saying I believe this, I am saying that it is one opinion about this case.

Joran has not been accused of rape by any women, so that seems to come out of no where - speculation. He did not rape Stephanie. I also don't believe he stalked Stephanie. They met at the casino table, and she obviously invited him into her car and accompanied him to his hotel. They both appeared calm and she followed him ... no force, no stalking.

Every lie has an element of truth, but I do not believe the stories that Joran tells. Amongst his stories are that he did nothing to Natalie, he put her in the ocean, he put her in the bird sanctuary, she fell off a balcony, she was dropped off at the hotel ... so many stories, but nothing that is consistent in the stories - no element of truth that jumps out from the web of lies.

My bolding Whoever the some people are, imo, couldn't be more wrong, Joran didn't 'cancel' his extortion. I'm not sure how anyone could come up with that. All of the demands were his, the arrangements made were his, Beth and Kelly followed his orders. And wow Beth didn't 'offer' him the money.
Joran's response to Kelly when he asked him what would happen if they didn't pay were "then Beth can wait another five years" His email to Kelly when he told kelly it was all a lie the week after he got the money was, paraphrasing, "you're both nice people but you shouldn't be so gullible". That's not someone who was coerced into anything in any way shape or form.

I spoke at length with real attorney friends who looked at everything when this broke including Beth's interview. They both maintain it is an open and shut case, the FBI has him.

Re Stephany, no she wasn't raped but she was found without her pants so it's not a leap to think a rape might have been in progress but that is something no one will ever know because I don't see Joran telling the truth if that's what happened.

I don't believe for one moment that he was harrassed or driven to insanity by harrassment to the point of murdering Stephany. I think the term harrassment gives the connotation that it was all unfair to him. He had every opportunity to come clean, he could have told the truth at any point in time and Beth and Dave could have had a proper grieving process and moved on by now.

If someone believes that Joran killed Natalee the same brutal way he killed Stephany then it's hard to understand that someone would also think that the mother of the murder victim would be wrong in her pursuit for justice. I know as a parent I would do everything to get answers especially knowing who was responsible, I would sell my soul to the devil to get justice for my child, what parent who loves their child wouldn't? And even if there was a billion to one shot that giving the person the money he wanted to give me those answers, it would be a chance I would take, again what parent wouldn't? I wouldn't stop til I drew my last breath.

Any mental illness that Joran might or might not be suffering is all his own doing. imo

 

[otto]

My bolding Whoever the some people are, imo, couldn't be more wrong, Joran didn't 'cancel' his extortion. I'm not sure how anyone could come up with that. All of the demands were his, the arrangements made were his, Beth and Kelly followed his orders. And wow Beth didn't 'offer' him the money.
Joran's response to Kelly when he asked him what would happen if they didn't pay were "then Beth can wait another five years" His email to Kelly when he told kelly it was all a lie the week after he got the money was, paraphrasing, "you're both nice people but you shouldn't be so gullible". That's not someone who was coerced into anything in any way shape or form.

I spoke at length with real attorney friends who looked at everything when this broke including Beth's interview. They both maintain it is an open and shut case, the FBI has him.

Re Stephany, no she wasn't raped but she was found without her pants so it's not a leap to think a rape might have been in progress but that is something no one will ever know because I don't see Joran telling the truth if that's what happened.

I don't believe for one moment that he was harrassed or driven to insanity by harrassmen to the point of murdering Stephany. I think the term harrassment gives the connotation that it was all unfair to him. He had every opportunity to come clean, he could have told the truth at any point in time and Beth and Dave could have had a proper grieving process and moved on by now.

If someone believes that Joran killed Natalee the same brutal way he killed Stephany then it's hard to understand that someone would also think that the mother of the murder victim would be wrong in her pursuit for justice. I know as a parent I would do everything to get answers especially knowing who was responsible, I would sell my soul to the devil to get justice for my child, what parent who loves their child wouldn't? And even if there was a billion to one shot that giving the person the money he wanted to give me those answers, it would be a chance I would take, again what parent wouldn't? I wouldn't stop til I drew my last breath.

Any mental illness that Joran might or might not be suffering is all his own doing. imo

The information about the cancelled extortion is provided by Beth in the interviews she gave with Peter. It's in English, and Beth is talking ... so I'm not making this up. Beth goes on to say that Joran provided her with a bank account number so when she didn't hear anything more from Joran, she deposited a few dollars in the account to see if it worked. Then she contacted Joran and offered him $10k ... that's my understanding.

Stephanie may have taken off her pants to sleep a little, or Joran could have taken them off after he murdered her to stage that two men attacked her ... as he said. There are other explanations for the pants, and nothing to suggest a sexual assault of any nature.

 

[annalia]

The information about the cancelled extortion is provided by Beth in the interviews she gave with Peter. It's in English, and Beth is talking ... so I'm not making this up. Beth goes on to say that Joran provided her with a bank account number so when she didn't hear anything more from Joran, she deposited a few dollars in the account to see if it worked. Then she contacted Joran and offered him $10k ... that's my understanding.

I didn't say you made it up. I saw the interview and disagree with your assessment of it.

 

[panthera]

Saw this on HLN today:

FBI agents heading to Lima in search for clues to Natalee Holloway's disappearance

Atlanta, GA – In Session has obtained a court document issued by a Lima court which states "on March 14, 2011 at 2:30 p.m. United States FBI special agents will have access to information and documentation contained in the laptop belonging to inmate Joran Andreas Petrus van der Sloot."

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011...for-clues-to-natalee-holloways-disappearance/

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the FBI was able to find something about Natalee after all this time?

It certainly would be. Perhaps the authorities in Peru uncovered something and notified the FBI? That would be even better! MOO

 

[annalia]

I'm pretty certain that before the FBI brings charges against someone they review all of the evidence and facts. Since they brought the charges after reviewing the evidence I don't think they believe anything was cancelled.

 

[otto]

I know that Peter seemed a little surprised to learn that Joran stopped contact with Beth and dropped any discussion about money, and that Beth then initiated contact with Joran and offered him $10k. I could even see that footage coming into play in any trial.

 

[suzihawk]

I've seen both the photo and the video where he looks up and obviously sees the camera. He has a distinct, "oh crap!" look on his face at that precise moment. (Sorry, I don't have time to run down the video right now.)

No one is claiming he has an organized mind - at least, I don't.

I'd like to see that ... do you have a link?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnm8S0Zw5qo[/ame]

At @1.20 he glances up and sees the camera. He deflates a bit and his wrist goes limp. He returns @1.50, peeks around the corner and verifies the camera (IMO) and then returns with the clerk. YW.

 

[suzihawk]

The information about the cancelled extortion is provided by Beth in the interviews she gave with Peter. It's in English, and Beth is talking ... so I'm not making this up. Beth goes on to say that Joran provided her with a bank account number so when she didn't hear anything more from Joran, she deposited a few dollars in the account to see if it worked. Then she contacted Joran and offered him $10k ... that's my understanding.

Stephanie may have taken off her pants to sleep a little, or Joran could have taken them off after he murdered her to stage that two men attacked her ... as he said. There are other explanations for the pants, and nothing to suggest a sexual assault of any nature.

Link?

 

[otto]

Thanks for finding the clip!

He looks a little crazed to me, and the limp wrist seems to reflect the fact that he knows no one is going to answer the door ... but I can't get a clear read of his eyes looking straight into the camera. Maybe I'm expecting too much, but knowing that he continued to have the conceirge open the door and continued staging being locked out while being on film - I don't see that happening.