GUILTY PLEA DEAL ACCEPTED - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #114

[LinasK]

I'm not putting much weight one way or another on his phone having registered The Mad Greek's wifi without knowing the duration for a few reasons:

1) There was outdoor seating for the Mad Greek as well as neighboring businesses out front. Chances are good that the Mad Greek's wifi was set up to reach those seats out front. I've been in situations like that where I was seated outside at one restaurant, and my phone connected to the wifi for the restaurant next door. According to google, there is/was a taphouse+kitchen on one side of Mad Greek and a cafe on the other, which all appear to have outdoor seating.

2) There is street parking available in front of the Mad Greek. Ditto for wifi meant to reach outdoor seating to also being reached from a car parked in front...with a person who may or may not have been going to that business or one on the other side of the street.

All things that the defense would have said. And trust me, I believe BK is guilty 100%. But I'm not hung up one way or another on him having to have actually gone into or bought food from the Mad Greek. There's outdoor tables, Maddie and Xana would have been going out to serve customers there. Easy enough to catch sight of one of them if you were at any business nearby.

However, there were witnesses who actually saw him in the Mad Greek having Vegan Pizza twice.

 

[cottonweaver]

Make of it what you will but ......

just as a reminder wrt to claims and counterclaims on actual dining at the Mad Greek ( not related to fact that it's been corroborated that BK's phone has ' touched' their wi-fi so he still could have dined there etc)

New York Post & The People Jan 2023 - BK dined at the Mad Greek

MG owner via a later news report
21 Jan 2023 — 'Jackie Fischer, owner of the Mad Creek, slammed a report that claimed Mr Kohberger had eaten at the restaurant twice in the weeks leading up....'

Restaurant where two Idaho murders victims worked denies Bryan Kohberger rumours

Jackie Fischer, owner of the Mad Creek, slammed a report that claimed Mr Kohberger had eaten at the restaurant twice in the weeks leading up to the murders

www.independent.co.uk

 

[LinasK]

Make of it what you will but ......

just as a reminder wrt to claims and counterclaims on actual dining at the Mad Greek ( not related to fact that it's been corroborated that BK's phone has ' touched' their wi-fi so he still could have dined there etc)

New York Post & The People Jan 2023 - BK dined at the Mad Greek

MG owner via a later news report
21 Jan 2023 — 'Jackie Fischer, owner of the Mad Creek, slammed a report that claimed Mr Kohberger had eaten at the restaurant twice in the weeks leading up....'

Restaurant where two Idaho murders victims worked denies Bryan Kohberger rumours

Jackie Fischer, owner of the Mad Creek, slammed a report that claimed Mr Kohberger had eaten at the restaurant twice in the weeks leading up to the murders

www.independent.co.uk

The owner understandibly may not want the association, but how do you dispute witnesses who actually saw him eating there, and know what he ordered?

 

[cottonweaver]

The owner understandibly may not want the association, but how do you dispute witnesses who actually saw him eating there, and know what he ordered?

It's discussed in the link - the reasons why she is disputing

 

[Ghostwheel]

However, there were witnesses who actually saw him in the Mad Greek having Vegan Pizza twice.

Was that in one of the released docs? I haven't gotten through them all yet.TIA.

 

[LinasK]

It's discussed in the link - the reasons why she is disputing

I read it, and I still don't see how she is negating eye witnesses who were at her restaurant apparently.

 

[LinasK]

Was that in one of the released docs? I haven't gotten through them all yet.TIA.

I saw it in one of the recent articles above. Haven't ventured into the doc dump. Why would someone have reason to lie about witnessing him there if they hadn't? This is one of the articles that talks about it- says the witness is a former employee of The Mad Greek Restaurant: Bryan Kohberger ate at restaurant where two victims worked, report says

 

[Ghostwheel]

I saw it in one of the recent articles above. Haven't ventured into the doc dump. Why would someone have reason to lie about witnessing him there if they hadn't?

I can think of many reasons, not the least of which is accidental misidentification of someone else as BK or convincing themselves they are part of what is going on for the excitement ( yes, people do this). It's really hard when the owner, and obviously everyone else who worked there, do not remember him being there,, but the one anonymous person in the People article, the person that likely got payed, did. I'm not saying it didn't happen, just that with conflicting information, I, personally, don't know that it happened. I was hoping there was a witness in a doc somewhere. If I find it exists, I'll post the doc number.

Thank you.

 

[LinasK]

I can think of many reasons, not the least of which is accidental misidentification of someone else as BK or convincing themselves they are part of what is going on for the excitement ( yes, people do this). It's really hard when the owner, and obviously everyone else who worked there, do not remember him being there,, but the one anonymous person in the People article, the person that likely got payed, did. I'm not saying it didn't happen, just that with conflicting information, I, personally, don't know that it happened. I was hoping there was a witness in a doc somewhere. If I find it exists, I'll post the doc number.

Thank you.

It may be another one of those things that happened, but police weren't able to verify. (People also contested that Bryan Laundrie and Gabby Petito had a fight in the Merry Piglets restaurant), and police in this case weren't able to verify that Kohlberger contacted/stalked his victims <mod snipped-no source>. It wasn't random that he happened upon that house.

 

[Ghostwheel]

It may be another one of those things that happened, but police weren't able to verify. (People also contested that Bryan Laundrie and Gabby Petito had a fight in the Merry Piglets restaurant), and police in this case weren't able to verify that Kohlberger contacted/stalked his victims <mod snipped-no source>. It wasn't random that he happened upon that house..

<Mod snipped- original post edited> As I said, I was genuinely looking for a doc, because I don't roll well with "someone said" and especially when they are anonymous. I've seen way too many "someone saids" turn out to be total fabrications, so I err on the side of "Maybe, maybe not". That the owner said straight out "this is not true" in the Mad Greek post gives me pause. I'm still open to maybe, maybe not.

 

[Boxer]

I think there would be an uproar by a large amount of people (not me!) if BK's parents were to speak.

I see a lot of people who think any thought or time given to BK's parents is complete and utter disrespect and harm to the victims and their families. And I believe at least one victim's family would be entirely and explosively negative were the parents to say anything.

They are criticized if they speak by some, they are criticized by others if they don't (not you).

I think all they can actually do is maintain their silence, draw support privately from their friends and family who know the reality of their family's story, and try to heal and keep putting one foot in front of the other.

As parents of a child with drug issues and mental health issues, they likely have already had years of experience of being slightly withdrawn from others--parents of "normal kids" often aren't very supportive when they hear what you are experiencing and you rapidly get disconnected from the usual social groups and school groups when your kid starts to have a high school experience that deviates greatly from their "normal" age peers. People withdraw from you because they don't get it and have no idea how to support you, and you start to preemptively withdraw in certain circumstances because sometimes it's too painful to see constant examples of the kind of life/experiences your kid "should" be having if they were "normal."

And every day for a very long time, they will have to focus on how to protect their privacy and keep their guard up. Because no matter how much attention fades from the case over time, there's always going to be some YTer or person from social media trying to get in touch with/encounter them. Every trip to the grocery store or CVS run involves that worry that today will be the day that someone will recognize you/your name.

Maybe if they could change their last name, move out of PA, and try to be anonymous somewhere else it could be a bit easier....but that is at the sacrifice of whatever in person friend and family support they have built where they live (and I'm sure they want to be close to their daughters)...and a big financial burden at their age.

The sisters are young enough that they can weather adapting and changing their lives more easily, I suspect. But it will never be easy.

MOO People withdraw from parents of acting out children simply because they don't want criminality or mental crisis touching their children's world, just like they withdraw from any sphere they don't want their children involved in.
MOO it's a sorry tale that BK would order a KBar on Amazon from his parents couch.
MOO The personality defect that would allow him to allow himself to do that was already manifest to others.

 

[cottonweaver]

Was that in one of the released docs? I haven't gotten through them all yet.TIA.

I never came across it when I was uploading the best ones onto WS but LE will have had to chase it down, as the owner describes in her ' disputation' regarding her former employee.
( There's a ref to LE taking their security camera footage and doing interviews and owner must have shift rota dates too for MM, credit card payments etc)

LE will have had to record it all so we should get a document on it - maybe ISP were doing some of this shoe leather work by January, not MPD? ( Also WS-er LeahBee is very kindly listing all the MPD doc numbers so it'll be easier to check it's not been missed)

It'll be good to get the dates for the timeline regardless, for the reasons I mentioned in this post GUILTY - PLEA DEAL ACCEPTED - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #114

WRT to that post, for example - afaik Maddie had lived at 1122 longer than Kaylee. Kaylee only moved into the house in August

 

[Megnut]

22 minutes

 

[gremlin444]

MOO People withdraw from parents of acting out children simply because they don't want criminality or mental crisis touching their children's world, just like they withdraw from any sphere they don't want their children involved in.
MOO it's a sorry tale that BK would order a KBar on Amazon from his parents couch.
MOO The personality defect that would allow him to allow himself to do that was already manifest to others.

IMO and from direct experience as well as talking to parents in support groups, parents in a school also withdraw from parents of kids who aren't acting out or in trouble with the law but are struggling with anxiety, depression, health problems, OCD, or autism spectrum as well. Sometimes out of ignorance, sometimes out of not knowing what to say, and sometimes out of a "phew, glad it's not my kid."

And keeping your kid away from a "problem" kid is entirely different from withdrawing inclusion and support to fellow parents of your kid's peers who are working hard to find help for their kids while still navigating within the school system and actively seeking to remain part of the school community. But yet the latter happens all the time. *shrug*

Which is often a sad irony when a few years later it's their own kid with anxiety or depression in high school seemingly out of nowhere, and now they need resources, help, and support themselves.

 

[Dotta]

MOO it's a sorry tale that BK would order a KBar on Amazon from his parents couch.
MOO The personality defect that would allow him to allow himself to do that was already manifest to others.

And on top of that
he chose this particular field of study.
He seemed to be drawn to it like a bee to honey

 

[Ghostwheel]

Rsbm

Which is often a sad irony when a few years later it's their own kid with anxiety or depression in high school seemingly out of nowhere, and now they need resources, help, and support themselves.

This happened to me a lot. Knowing what I had gone through with my dyslexic kids in elementary school, years later people came to me asking for help when theirs reached middle school and mom and dad couldn't "do" it all for them. These people were never mean previously, but they liked to pretend it wasn't really a problem for my kids (they are freakishly intelligent, just don't learn the conventional ways).

IMO, people are afraid of what they don't understand or can't deal with. I know I was darned confused with my kids at first. Verbally, they could tell you anything. Ask them to write it down and good luck with that. The feeling is that you have no idea what to do. And no one knows how to help. And besides, it's impolite to mention a problem depending on the culture of where you are, you know.... just sweep it under the rug.

But people came to me for help, and I steered them to all the places I had to figure out for myself because my son also had anxiety due to his being different. When your child is different, for any reason, there is denial, confusion, inability to understand at what level it affects the child, so much people don't understand including the parents.

I mean, in this case, what could a friend say to BK parents? They live in an area where maybe most people know them. And there will be evil people who visit evil on his family, when they likely did the best they could with a non neuro typical son. If BK was polite and deferential at home, they might have thought he was going to be ok.

 

[gremlin444]

Interesting article on the trauma juries experience.....

After a Grisly Trial, Jurors Are Left With Mental Scars and Few Resources

People who serve on disturbing cases can suffer the effects for years after a trial ends.

www.nytimes.com

Relevant because I think we've all imagined how absolutely awful it would be to be on the jury for BK's trial. Horror x 4.

I think Hippler would have helped the jurors as much as he could, but I don't know what assistance Idaho offers their jurors during and post trial.

Jurors should all be so lucky as to be in front of a judge as proactive and thoughtful as this:

Jill J. Karofsky, the chief justice of the Wisconsin State Supreme Court and a former circuit court judge, recalled another judge’s child pornography trial during which jurors needed wastebaskets nearby because more than one got sick.

“I kept saying, ‘What can I do for my jurors?’ And no one had any answers,” Ms. Karofsky said. She started finding small ways to support them: During one trial, she had a therapy dog brought in during a lunch break. After some particularly difficult cases, she wrote a letter that she handed to jurors, sharing information about trauma reactions and offering free sessions she had arranged with a friend who was a therapist.

The therapy dog idea is amazing, IMHO. Until deliberations, the jurors are stuck not being able to talk to anyone including each other so the are left to process the horrible things they've seen and heard all on their own.

Had this case gone to trial, I think those jurors would have needed daily therapy dog visits from a team of dogs.

 

[Inthedetails]

Interesting article on the trauma juries experience.....

After a Grisly Trial, Jurors Are Left With Mental Scars and Few Resources

People who serve on disturbing cases can suffer the effects for years after a trial ends.

www.nytimes.com

Relevant because I think we've all imagined how absolutely awful it would be to be on the jury for BK's trial. Horror x 4.

I think Hippler would have helped the jurors as much as he could, but I don't know what assistance Idaho offers their jurors during and post trial.

Jurors should all be so lucky as to be in front of a judge as proactive and thoughtful as this:

Jill J. Karofsky, the chief justice of the Wisconsin State Supreme Court and a former circuit court judge, recalled another judge’s child trial during which jurors needed wastebaskets nearby because more than one got sick.

“I kept saying, ‘What can I do for my jurors?’ And no one had any answers,” Ms. Karofsky said. She started finding small ways to support them: During one trial, she had a therapy dog brought in during a lunch break. After some particularly difficult cases, she wrote a letter that she handed to jurors, sharing information about trauma reactions and offering free sessions she had arranged with a friend who was a therapist.

The therapy dog idea is amazing, IMHO. Until deliberations, the jurors are stuck not being able to talk to anyone including each other so the are left to process the horrible things they've seen and heard all on their own.

Had this case gone to trial, I think those jurors would have needed daily therapy dog visits from a team of dogs.

IIRC in the Vallow/Daybell cases in Idaho, the jurors were treated well and also were offered therapy after the trial.

jmopinion

 

[303gmf]

IIRC in the Vallow/Daybell cases in Idaho, the jurors were treated well and also were offered therapy after the trial.

jmopinion

Yes!
EMDR sessions were really helpful to the one I listened to

 

[gremlin444]

So, the photos of the kitchen. I noticed a few things, but have been too busy the last few days.

1) The open sliding glass door--the latch and the twist knob part are both in the "locked" position. Just to be sure, I went and photos of sliding glass doors that have the same handle.

2) The sliding glass door does not appear to be open very wide. Did he manage to ooch through there, turned sideways, and not have the blood on the front of whatever he was wearing smear onto the opening? I haven't seen anything in the docs about blood found on that opening.

3) What appears to be the much disputed Jack in the box bag is on the counter to the side of the sink--so that should end the "where was it actually found" question. That kitchen photo was taken around 12:30 on 11-13 (per the time on the stove, assuming the kids kept it semi accurate). That officer taking photos was only on scene from 12 to about 5:30 that Sunday, and by the outside light, it can't be too late in the afternoon. No, we can't see the JITB label, but it has the broken red tape...the same as the bag in the later photos--

From this photo on Nov 17 (https://jameskeivom.com/Idaho-Murders/234/caption), it looks like some items from the counter (including the bag we see from the counter) were moved behind the sink/into the sink after the initial photos were taken, when they needed forensics to be able to get to that kitchen window. Prior photos from JK and others initially show nothing other than a few things on the kitchen table.

Next, a lot of those items were moved to the kitchen table.( https://jameskeivom.com/Idaho-Murders/28/caption). The photos that we see of the popcorn bag, a bunch of dishes including stuff from the sink, and stuff from the countertops over on the kitchen table was taken Dec 1. But we do not see the JITB bag in those.