Please Read. The JBR forum is just a wee bit different than the rest.

[Lurker Steve]

People are not convicted of murdered based on a polygraph alone. Remember it is not admissable in court, anyway!!!! Innocent people have no concern taking a polygraph test!!

This innocent person does. A study found:

false positive rate (innocent persons found deceptive) ranged from 0 to 75 percent and averaged 19.1 percent;

and futhermore...

No technical evidence supports the contention that false positive rates can be as low as 2%.

This from the Office of Technology Assessment.

No way would I take a test where 19% of the time, the police would release the results (incriminating me in the public, who thinks 'lie detectors' are accurate) and they'd investigate every area of my life. Innocent or not.

 

[Straitfan]

I have never, not one time "feared" a polygraph test so guess if someone fears them or doubts the results they must have something to hide. cause I would take a polygraph 24/7 if necessary. Guess I would question, why people are taking them to begin with..

 

[mfmangel1]

People are not convicted of murdered based on a polygraph alone. Remember it is not admissable in court, anyway!!!! Innocent people have no concern taking a polygraph test!!

Due to certain medications and emotional distress, the polygraph can be affected.

Under those conditions, even an innocent person may have reason to be concerned.

 

[JBean]

Due to certain medications and emotional distress, the polygraph can be affected.

Under those conditions, even an innocent person may have reason to be concerned.

I would never pass a polygraph and consequently would never take one. When I am hooked up for a simple EKG the needle is all over the place because I keep tellling myself I have to be calm. The more I think about it the worse it gets. Sort of like having a shy bladder for a urinalysis and being unable to pee.
When I was in college, I had a physio psych class where they hooked me up as a guinea pig to a polygraph. I did not do well.

 

[Straitfan]

So, you're saying that even if they're innocent, they're guilty??!! With all due respect, that statement above is ridiculous and even borders on nonsensical, IMO. :waitasec:

The bottom line is a young child was murdered because....Because evil walks, talks and breathes amongst us in this world, and often under the guise of just the opposite.

No, that is not what I said. maybe you should re-read

 

[Straitfan]

With all due respect, I am not going to argue over polygraph tests as I have never taken one.. Hmmmm guess I have never had reason too, mediication or not. But if necessary, I would..for the sake of my chld.

 

[MistyM]

i dont think there is ANY particular way a grieving person should act. i mean seriously. when my grandmother died, my one aunt didn't shed a tear. she acted like nobody died. does that make her guilty of doing something? of not loving her mother? no, she's just like that!

i see alot of really judgemental things said on this forum about the ramsey's and really nasty stuff too. i don't know but when i read people laughing about 'oh patsy didn't care about hygiene HAHA' and stuff, i can't help but feel bad for the ramseys. and almost become more of a believer of their innocence since it seems like the people who do think they are guilty are being so mean towards them. it's like at this point certain people have completely shut any form of open thought to anything and are just being snide about it. not giving anything a chance and using their superiority of 'knowing more about the case' to try to shut up people who think different. like we are stupid and don't know any better.

and as for a polygraph. if you haven't ever had the need to take one, how the heck do you know how you would REALLY feel about it! imagine if you are being accused for something you didn't do. are you so sure that stress wouldn't screw up your results? i would be terrified to get a false positive or whatever.

just because people didn't act the way you 'think' they should by perhaps 'common sense' doesn't mean they are guilty. common sense isn't always that common in a horrible crisis.

so yeah. i let off some steam. carry on. heh.

 

[Elberethe]

Tricia,
For you running/owning this forum, I say a big thank you! I love this site. I would be devestated if you ever closed it.

I second that emotion! I don't always agree with Tricia (we do happen to be in agreement on this case). Yet, I have never felt she was unapproachable or that I couldn't offer a differing opinion.

I can understand that emotions ran pretty high when Patsy's death was announced and it wasn't a pretty thing on the forums. This has not just happened on this forum, however. All of these cases have their moments when the exchanges get heated. It doesn't make it right, but at least we have good moderation that can put a lid on it and get everyone back on track.

I have been to many boards, and I can honestly say that if you don't like the atmosphere, the best thing you can do is leave. I followed my own advice until I landed here. I would hope everyone can find a place where they feel their opinion and presence is welcome. If it is not here, you owe it to yourself to keep looking.

Thank you for all that you do Tricia. Even when I'm not posting, I'm reading. This is still, IMHO, the best place to get the whole story (both sides), and usually before you will hear it anywhere else.

***************

On the polygraph. I wouldn't take one under normal circumstances. They are not reliable and it simply isn't worth the trouble it could bring you. That said, if my child was dead, I would probably take one and do anything LE asked me because I simply wouldn't care what happened to me anymore. I wouldn't care what anyone believed .. my child is my whole life.

If I believed my child was kidnapped and in danger if I called the police, I would call but I would tell the police about the danger. I would INSIST they find my child and not let anyone know they are looking! I would ask for the impossible and expect it. I would be a basket case. I might turn to 1 or 2 trusted friends, but I wouldn't want anyone coming over who might confuse the kidnappers. I have never understood that the Ramseys didn't advise the police that the child would be killed if they were involved and no one panic'd when the black and whites pulled up into the yard.

I sure as heck wouldn't continue with plans to leave the state when I'm suppose to deliver a ransom soon!

I might let my child go away with family or friends though, if I thought it might be safer then being with me; especially since the ransom note didn't say I couldn't or showed any interest in the other child.

If I went to my childs room and found him missing, I would begin to search the house. That would end when I found the ransom note. I'm gullable, I guess. I would believe he was gone at that point and search no further. So, I can understand them not searching the house sooner or before calling the police.

 

[shellbee]

Here's one to start: attempted flight (literally) from the crime scene -- John caught making plane arrangements a half hour after revealing JonBenét's body. I believe that's called evidence of consciousness of guilt in criminal trials.

I believe the flight arragements he made were to have his two older children picked up and brought to Denver.

 

[MistyM]

i don't know what i would do if i found out one of my children were missing and then i found a ransom note. on one hand you DO need the police, but on the other hand you don't want your child to be harmed. i think in a panic situation i would call them. but yeah. be very sneaky about it. like please come in a unmarked car. and don't make a scene.

 

[otto]

... or at least insist that the person giving it has more experience with the limitations of the polygraph and freely admits it.

Problem is, mostly what you get is "inconclusive" - and we saw how that phrase was used against PR's handwriting analysis.

You are right. If the person is innocent according to the polygraph, it is stated as inconclusive but if the person is guilty according to the polygraph, it is stated to be conclusive. It's a lose+lose situation.

I read the handwriting analysis on the freedom website and I don't see it. It's a compelling argument, but if you compare pre-murder handwriting from Patsy with the handwriting of the ransom note, there is no similarity. There is something about 'handwriting that slants all over the place' and I'm sure that it's not only nervousness, but also a deliberate intention to obscure handwriting style. Patsy has "slanting" problems in her post-murder handwriting samples as does the ransom note and the entry in the yearbook. Patsy doesn't have any slant problems in her pre-murder handwriting sample.

 

[kazzbar]

i don't know what i would do if i found out one of my children were missing and then i found a ransom note. on one hand you DO need the police, but on the other hand you don't want your child to be harmed. i think in a panic situation i would call them. but yeah. be very sneaky about it. like please come in a unmarked car. and don't make a scene.

yeah, that is a tough thing to think about. I am not sure how I would react because without being in that situation it is hard to know. Think i would be hesitant to call them for a while but would call out of utter frustration and worry. But I do not think I would call an entourage of admirers to share my worry.

 

[akgal]

i don't know what i would do if i found out one of my children were missing and then i found a ransom note. on one hand you DO need the police, but on the other hand you don't want your child to be harmed. i think in a panic situation i would call them. but yeah. be very sneaky about it. like please come in a unmarked car. and don't make a scene.

This is exactly what I have always wondered about. The note says don't call the police, but you have the whole house swarming with police and friends. I am on the fence as to whether the Ramsey's are guilty, but the one thing that has always bothered me, is why did he get the police so publicly involved and made flight arrangements, but didn't make arrangements to get the money that was asked for in the ransom note, its not like he didn't have the funds. Maybe I've watched too many movies, lol.

 

[MistyM]

i dunno maybe he did. who knows. maybe it crossed his mind and he mentioned it and was advised to do something else. like look for her.

i can't say 100% if they are guilty or not. but any evidence i consider is based on facts not people's opinions of how others should act. know what i mean?

 

[julianne]

i dont think there is ANY particular way a grieving person should act. i mean seriously. when my grandmother died, my one aunt didn't shed a tear. she acted like nobody died. does that make her guilty of doing something? of not loving her mother? no, she's just like that!

i see alot of really judgemental things said on this forum about the ramsey's and really nasty stuff too. i don't know but when i read people laughing about 'oh patsy didn't care about hygiene HAHA' and stuff, i can't help but feel bad for the ramseys. and almost become more of a believer of their innocence since it seems like the people who do think they are guilty are being so mean towards them. it's like at this point certain people have completely shut any form of open thought to anything and are just being snide about it. not giving anything a chance and using their superiority of 'knowing more about the case' to try to shut up people who think different. like we are stupid and don't know any better.

and as for a polygraph. if you haven't ever had the need to take one, how the heck do you know how you would REALLY feel about it! imagine if you are being accused for something you didn't do. are you so sure that stress wouldn't screw up your results? i would be terrified to get a false positive or whatever.

just because people didn't act the way you 'think' they should by perhaps 'common sense' doesn't mean they are guilty. common sense isn't always that common in a horrible crisis.

so yeah. i let off some steam. carry on. heh.

Excellent post, MistyM!!!!:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[MistyM]

thanks julianne. i was scared to read any replies. eek!

i'm not angry at anything, and really, i am one of those 'agree to disagree' people. i don't like arguing about things. i like debates. and everyone should definately be entitled to their opinions.

 

[Hyatt]

With all due respect Tricia, what if you're wrong? Will you apologize to the family and all those that believed in their innocence if and when someone unrelated to the family (an intruder perhaps) is arrested, tried and convicted and the Ramsey family is totally exonerated?

The major point of contention in the JonBenet case IS whether the parents (one or both) are victims or perpetrators. No one here believes in bashing victims. We just don't agree on WHO is a victim here, beyond JonBenet. While I do not personally know anyone who was run over by the Ramsey bus - I certainly know that there have been casualties - and even if only one parent was responsible - the other aided and abetted a cover-up, not just passively but with sufficient venom to not incite any sympathy whatsoever in me. I personally believe that Steve Thomas had it right, in terms of the scenario - i.e. this was not premeditaded but the result of a violent parent-child encouter whereupon the parent, instead of calling 911 when the episode became critical, took the wrong turn to cover up everything. I used to agree with him on which parent and did a lot of posting here to that effect many years ago - but now I'm not so sure of which one was involved, although he probably was right about that too.

BTW, I can't believe that anyone would compare them to Natalie Holloway's parents since they were, and continue to be, SUSPECTS in this case. They did NOT fully cooperate with the police as one would expect from parent victims, even if they long claimed otherwise. IMO, the case cannot be debated at all if everyone is supposed to treat them as victims. Many people's lives were ruined because of their lies and that is what wiped out any possible trace of sympathy and doubt I could ever have entertained about them. Should he have been totally innocent in this matter, JR could still come clean with the whole story - but instead he chooses another path according to his priorities - truth not being one of them. That's his freedom of choice. As for mine, it alligns itself with the right to echo Tricia's beliefs.

JMO .... but I'm entitled to it.

 

[akgal]

It is my honest opinion, at this time, that the only victim is JonBenet, and I don't see anyone bashing her.

 

[otto]

I would never pass a polygraph and consequently would never take one. When I am hooked up for a simple EKG the needle is all over the place because I keep tellling myself I have to be calm. The more I think about it the worse it gets. Sort of like having a shy bladder for a urinalysis and being unable to pee.
When I was in college, I had a physio psych class where they hooked me up as a guinea pig to a polygraph. I did not do well.

And some people are so calm they can slow down their heartbeat.

 

[otto]

If your child has been murdered, who cares what the polygragh says... Innocent people would not care less... That would be the last thing on my mind..

If your child has been murdered and you are the prime suspect, you care a lot what the polygraph says. Innocent people do care, especially is they are accused and in a position to prove their innocence. It would be the first thing on your mind if you were falsely accused.