Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[SMK]

wow! Thanks for the Camille Paglia reference! I'm
Going to check her work out after I finish this reply!

Thank you!

I also thought you might find this so interesting!!!

Jim Fallon: Exploring the mind of a killer - YouTube

(another from the TED Talks series available on Netflix)

I've also wondered SMK given our many open minded convos:

do you think Jodi's borderline persona we see in court is simply her mirroring her victim Travis who could of had actual borderline or PTSd symptoms? Essentially, that the BPD symptoms she fakes are actually the symptoms of the true victim, TA? You can probably objectively explain how this might relate for me. You're very good at that!

Thanks for that. You know, that had even occurred to me, that she was mirroring Travis' identity (with the talk of childhood abuse, which he really did experience). Yes, it would make sense that she would "borrow" his syndrome and symptoms. The chameleon-like quality is very abundant in Narcissists, I know from dealing with them, so yes, IMO it would make a great deal of sense. Some Ns even tell stories heard from others' pasts, and then recount them as having happened to them...(a friend will tell them they saw their Grandfather shoot himself, and then the N will begin telling that as a story from their own past....)

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I guess if you examine it this way, it is compelling. And she did feel the need for breast implants, as though she did not feel feminine.

Could it be the dyeing the hair and all the makeup and little girl sexuality were a compensation for not feeling feminine?

ETA: Camille Paglia in one of her essays talked about tomboys (she included herself in this) who grow up and have to "fake" femininity: She said, "By the time we are doing the makeup and dresses, we feel like drag queens."

I think she meant hers psychologically: Girls who had grown up in homes where feminine things and clothes and dolls had NOT been stressed, and the girl was encouraged to feel free to act boyish if she wanted.

Then the girl finds out how pretty she is in her 20s and begins to do the hair and makeup and feels like a drag queen, like she is fooling men.

This could be part of JA's syndrome as well.

I really believe you hit the nail on the head here! I'll give an example from my own experience with psychopathy in my own family:

My paternal grandmother grew up in TN and was the daughter of very religious individuals. My grandmother would get into trouble with her mother of she did not look feminine or pretty enough. She literally was forced to push her front bucked teeth into a wooden bed post to try and force them to not protrude, which caused her to bust her teeth out. (Later in life when her replacement teeth would fall out before an important engagement she would have a mervous breakdown/identity crisis infront of her own children). Her legs were beat regularly by her mother if her skirt seemed too short. My grandmother was potty trained at an extremely early age bc she was punished if she did not learn how to use the toilet properly.

She grew up to be a model, own an agency, and hang about with hollywood actresses. She is charming and can get any man she wants. Physically, she is rather striking, but she is rather masculine. (funny enough I've learned that AIS sex neutral women usually look like super models aka Jamie lee Curtis). My grandmother hides her masculine features well with gaudy fashion, wigs, big sunglasses... She literally looks like a drag queen! Funny considering how Camille mentions the drag queen aspect!

Shes high up in the church. But we all know who she really is deep down. She is so fragmented and insecure its sad/scary - and those who hang around her long enough figure this out and run away. We specifically have been told that she has scared friends to the point that they had to hide their knives.

My aunt, my grandmothers daughter, is gay and is very masculine and "butch". She is a stage actress, capable of wearing many masks. But I do find a way to sympathetically connect with my aunt in a way that I can't with my grandmother. My grandmother was so insistent on my aunt being girly when my aunt was young that she literally was a pageant mom. My aunt grew up to idolize Sonny and wanted to marry Cher . I love my aunt. She definitely has my grandmothers chameleon qualities.


It's funny. When my dad was a kid, a family friend who was a doctor came over for dinner. after everyone ate and my grandmother was in the kitchen cleaning after one of her many "acts", she doctor leaned over to my dad and whispered in all seriousness, "you are aware your mother is a sociopath, aren't you?"

 

[SMK]

I really believe you hit the nail on the head here! I'll give an example from my own experience with psychopathy in my own family:

My paternal grandmother grew up in TN and was the daughter of very religious individuals. My grandmother would get into trouble with her mother of she did not look feminine or pretty enough. She literally was forced to push her front bucked teeth into a wooden bed post to try and force them to not protrude, which caused her to bust her teeth out. (Later in life when her replacement teeth would fall out before an important engagement she would have a mervous breakdown/identity crisis infront of her own children). Her legs were beat regularly by her mother if her skirt seemed too short. My grandmother was potty trained at an extremely early age bc she was punished if she did not learn how to use the toilet properly.

She grew up to be a model, own an agency, and hang about with hollywood actresses. She is charming and can get any man she wants. Physically, she is rather striking, but she is rather masculine. (funny enough I've learned that AIS gender neutral women usually look like super models aka Jamie lee Curtis). My grandmother hides her masculine features well with gaudy fashion, wigs, big sunglasses... She literally looks like a drag queen! Funny considering how Camille mentions the drag queen aspect!

Shes high up in the church. But we all know who she really is deep down. She is so fragmented and insecure its sad/scary - and those who hang around her long enough figure this out and run away. We specifically have been told that she has scared friends to the point that they had to hide their knives.

My aunt, my grandmothers daughter, is gay and is very masculine and "butch". She is a stage actress, capable of wearing many masks. But I do find a way to sympathetically connect with my aunt in a way that I can't with my grandmother. My grandmother was so insistent on my aunt being girly when my aunt was young that she literally was a pageant mom. My aunt grew up to idolize Sonny and wanted to marry Cher . I love my aunt. She definitely has my grandmothers chameleon qualities.


It's funny. When my dad was a kid, a family friend who was a doctor came over for dinner. after everyone ate and my grandmother was in the kitchen cleaning after one of her many "acts", she doctor leaned over to my dad and whispered in all seriousness, "you are aware your mother is a sociopath, aren't you?"

Wow, that is an amazing and intruiging story--- and very appro of Paglia, Narcissim and the whole syndrome. Thank you for sharing!

 

[Night-owl]

Essentially the testosterone is an after effect of the brain having an over abundance of serotonin early in development (in utero) via the mother. The brain becomes "tolerant" to serotonin in the baby, most typically passed to males as MAOA is carried by the X chromosome.

Since serotonin and psychopathy go hand in hand, I believe the lack of serotonin regulation in the males in some cases may cause erectile dysfunction. Also the thrill isn't in the sex for a male psychopath like it is with the female. The female can use sex to manipulate/control their victim so they enjoy and utilize sex often. Male psychopaths tend to take pleasure in the "chase" of their interest - what they can say to get the girl, how drunk she is so they can take advantage, etc...

Furthermore, the females use sex for control. The men can't necessarily manipulate/control women with sex.

Ok, so psychopathy can be related to serotonin insensitivity or a lack of receptors, and probably a host of other little twists in the brain and brain chemistry.

However, from your link:

http://www.whale.to/c/female_psychopaths.html

Typical Female Psychopathic Traits
Unexpected sexual arousal
Large clitoris
Pronounced Adams Apple (by female standards)
Waking up in pools of sweat even in cool weather
Somewhat unfeminine posture when viewed from behind (but this is not a hard and fast rule)

Really? I'm to believe that my somewhat unfeminine posture is indicative of a deeper problem in my brain? I'm almost offended by this. That site still appears to be a lot of bashing of women who are not "lady-like", with no references to a peer-reviewed study.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Ok, so psychopathy can be related to serotonin insensitivity or a lack of receptors, and probably a host of other little twists in the brain and brain chemistry.

However, from your link:


Really? I'm to believe that my somewhat unfeminine posture is indicative of a deeper problem in my brain? I'm almost offended by this. That site still appears to be a lot of bashing of women who are not "lady-like", with no references to a peer-reviewed study.

IMHO You shouldn't apply this so literally and diagnostically to yourself as I'm sure you are a remarkable person, as we all are unique and remarkable.

It simply is the fact that more psychopathic women have those traits of masculinity than femininity.

I believe the posture is not so much about slouching or "unlady like" posture, but a testosterone driven dominant male posture. Most females or feminine featured individuals influenced by estrogen have more disarming mannerisms.

I hope I don't seem like I'm suggesting if you have masculine mannerisms or features that you are a psychopath - I myself then would be the queen bee of psychopathy if that were true as I'm not exactly feminine in my features.

I can honestly identify Camille in SMK's post in that I do not feel feminine and I rarely "dress up" as it feels like a drag show to me. Then again, I'm fairly confident in saying I have more psychopathic/sociopathic traits than most - which Ive embraced on this thread to help others understand mental illness.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Wow, that is an amazing and intruiging story--- and very appro of Paglia, Narcissim and the whole syndrome. Thank you for sharing!

No - thank you for sharing the Camille Paglia reference. I do believe it has validity and I'm currently immersed in her theory via iPhone - yay for modern technology for helping us out with intellectual multi tasking! Down with the crazy ants!

P.s. if I hear/see Debbie Boone sing "you light up my life" for Lifestyle Lift one more time I'm going to staple my head to the wall!

 

[SMK]

IMHO You shouldn't apply this so literally and diagnostically to yourself as I'm sure you are a remarkable person, as we all are unique and remarkable.

It simply is the fact that more psychopathic women have those traits of masculinity than femininity.

I believe the posture is not so much about slouching or "unlady like" posture, but a testosterone driven dominant male posture. Most females or feminine featured individuals influenced by estrogen have more disarming mannerisms.

I hope I don't seem like I'm suggesting if you have masculine mannerisms or features that you are a psychopath - I myself then would be the queen bee of psychopathy if that were true as I'm not exactly feminine in my features.

I can honestly identify Camille in SMK's post in that I do not feel feminine and I rarely "dress up" as it feels like a drag show to me. Then again, I'm fairly confident in saying I have more psychopathic/sociopathic traits than most - which Ive embraced on this thread to help others understand mental illness.

I also identify with this:

In my 20s despite the fact that I was lucky to actually look physically very feminine and attractive, I did not FEEL it at all, and often when dressed in nice sexy dresses and with makeup and hair done, felt I was somehow "deceiving" men who told me I was alluring ("He actually thinks I'm a real girl!")----I attribute this to being raised by a feminist mother who hated the "Daddy's little girl" thing and encouraged me to be boyish. But yes, it led to certain traits I would call quasi-sociopathic : Wanting to dominate men and one-up them, and being fully unable to "play the game" with them. Would be interesting to know if Jodi had any of this in her upbringing.

 

[human]

Hm. I am a grandmother and basically have never worn make up. Do not like the feel of it on my face and too busy to take the time. Same with hair. Too much other stuff to do than do hair.

I have never worn high heels in my life, except for dress up as a child. Must have gotten that out of my system back then. I like jewelry, but too much of a hassle.

I like expensive clothes, but only those that are comfy and do not look grandmotherly or teenage.

I do not consider myself as masculine at all. I consider myself smart as I do not have foot issues from heels and I can take off at a moment's notice for fun and adventure.

 

[Night-owl]

IMHO You shouldn't apply this so literally and diagnostically to yourself as I'm sure you are a remarkable person, as we all are unique and remarkable.

It simply is the fact that more psychopathic women have those traits of masculinity than femininity.

I believe the posture is not so much about slouching or "unlady like" posture, but a testosterone driven dominant male posture. Most females or feminine featured individuals influenced by estrogen have more disarming mannerisms.

I hope I don't seem like I'm suggesting if you have masculine mannerisms or features that you are a psychopath - I myself then would be the queen bee of psychopathy if that were true as I'm not exactly feminine in my features.

I can honestly identify Camille in SMK's post in that I do not feel feminine and I rarely "dress up" as it feels like a drag show to me. Then again, I'm fairly confident in saying I have more psychopathic/sociopathic traits than most - which Ive embraced on this thread to help others understand mental illness.

We're all unique and remarkable, I recognize that. That doesn't take away from the fact that the link you posted doesn't offer any other ways than to take the contents literally. That being the case, I'll throw out some questions. While no one has mistaken me for anything other than female with my hair tied back and not a scrap of makeup on, I know people who are intersexed and people who are transgendered. While I can't say every single one of them is shining example of mental stability, they are certainly not all psychopaths.

As far as female psychopaths... granted, after being in prison denied your makeup kit, your exfoliant, long soaks in a nice hot tub and fine dining on regular occasions, any woman is going to look rough. However, Diane Downs? Darlie Routier? Karla Homolka? Nothing masculine looking there at all if you are looking at pictures of them.

I can picture a higher testosterone level in psychopaths who are violent criminals. That is not necessarily causal. People with a higher testosterone level tend to be more aggressive. Does the garden variety psychopath have a higher level of testosterone? I don't think that study has been done.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

The fact that there are tests that can identify if a person is a psychopath.What would be the motivation to seek these tests? If tests were court ordered it stands to reason that diagnosis would follow. But,why would someone want to find out that they are psychopathic?
It would be difficult to even convince A psychopath to get testing. Their disorder makes them believe they are normal.

Good point. I often wonder what the benefit of proving psychopathy in court would be, especially with the stigma many psychopaths face and APDs alike...

My wish is that in a case like Arias, the state would order a CT, MRI, and PET scan. If we also can prove that antisocial PD truly is a mental illness indicated by brain abnormalities/damage, if might give us more closure/humanity when judging these "evil" individuals. If we see there is no significant damage to Arias neurobiology, it would indicate more proclivity toward sanity and we could judge her appropriately.

We are practically to the point scientifically that we can pinpoint a persons specific "neurosis" with these scans and get a more clear idea of the state of their cognitive faculties.

IMHO if psychology is going to play a role in trial, it should only be in respect to qualifyable information like test results (whether they be physical examination or test results from inventory that the patient/suspect has answered).

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Hey nightowl! We're all unique and remarkable

Thank u I agree! Sorry if you feel I am depicting you in any sort of way. I don't even know you and have said nothing about your physical appearance. Sorry again if I am coming across wrong!

"Does the garden variety psychopath have a higher level of testosterone? I don't think that study has been done."

I'll include some info below and the supporting link on testosterone (and cortisol) in relation to psychopathy.

"A recently proposed theory suggests that the ratio between testosterone and cortisol may predispose to more severe forms of social aggression that include both instrumental and reactive forms of aggression, as observed in psychopathy (Terburg et al., 2009). Terburg et al. (2009) base
the ratio hypothesis on the Triple Balance Model of Emotion set forth by van Honk & Schutter (2006) which explains the role that cortisol and testosterone may play in the development of psychopathic traits. This model highlights that the HPA and HPG axes counteract each other, and that the relative activity of the two axes can significantly influence brain regions and pathways that have been implicated in psychopathy. The HPA and HPG axes are mutually inhibitory – testosterone inhibits functioning of the HPA axis at the level of the hypothalamus, whereas cortisol suppresses the activity of the HPG axis at all levels, diminishing the production of testosterone and inhibiting the action of testosterone at target tissues (Johnson et al., 1992; Tilbrook et al., 2000). Animal studies have shown that one of the primary brain regions where testosterone and cortisol have an effect is in the amygdala (Koolhass et al., 1990), a region that is consistently implicated in psychopathy (Blair, 2007). In the amygdala, cortisol is hypothesized to promote fearfulness and withdrawal behavior (Schulkin et al., 1998); testosterone has the opposite effect – it serves to promote reward-seeking and approach behavior (Daitzman & Zuckerman, 1980).
If the balance between these two hormones is changed so that there is more testosterone relative to cortisol acting on the amygdala, an individual may become less fearful and more reward seeking and aggressive (van Honk et al., 2010; van Honk & Schutter, 2006); these traits are associated with Facets 2 (Affective), 3 (Lifestyle), and 4 (Antisocial) of psychopathy, respectively. Furthermore, cortisol and testosterone affect the amount of communication between subcortical regions, such as the amygdala, and cortical regions, such as the orbitofrontal cortex. Cortisol strengthens the communication between these regions (as measured by the correlation in wave activity measured by EEG), whereas testosterone reduces it (Schutter & van Honk, 2005; van Peer et al., 2008; van Wingen et al., 2010). Increased testosterone relative to cortisol may reduce the communication between the amygdala and orbitofrontal cortex."

http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/vie...search="psychopaths have higher testosterone"

 

[human]

There seems to be an increase in the rate of female perpetrated violence. Not equal to rates of male violence. What could be the cause of increase in Women?

That is an interesting question as what I learned in some class along the way is that men externalize, whereas women harm themselves because of issues.

We have Bonnie and Clyde. We have the nurses that kill their patients, Aileen, Munchshsusen by Proxy.

Are there other famous killers?

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

That is an interesting question as what I learned in some class along the way is that men externalize, whereas women harm themselves because of issues.

We have Bonnie and Clyde. We have the nurses that kill their patients, Aileen, Munchshsusen by Proxy.

Are there other famous killers?

Do you think testosterone increase (cortisol decrease) in men can cause outward aggression and cortisol decrease could cause internal aggression/self mutilation with women?

Your idea has sparked some ideas for me! Gonna go read some more. Every one has such good ideas today!

Interesting in relation to high cortisol Levels among women w PTSD involved intimate partner violence! I wonder if this cortisol increase could effect a baby in utero?? Perhaps this is the link between nature and nurture! If the mother has PTSD from IPV and high cortisol, perhaps this is where the serotonin flush that causes the "serotonin tolerance" in utero! This might also explain the maternal connection to the child and how the mothers state of mind ravaged to PTSD/hormones effect the development of the baby from a nurture aspect (although nature also applies!)

"Keywords:
posttraumatic stress disorder;cortisol;HPA axis;platelet catecholamines;epinephrine;norepinephrine;intimate partner violence
abstract: Intimate partner violence (IPV) is a chronic and recurrent traumatic stressor associated with PTSD; however, its biological correlates are not well understood. This study examined diurnal salivary cortisol and platelet catecholamines in women with lifetime IPV-related PTSD and in women exposed to IPV who did not develop PTSD. Cortisol was elevated in women with lifetime PTSD compared to controls. No differences were found for platelet catecholamines."

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

 

[Cate49]

There seems to be correlation between social media and increased violence between women. Social media seemed to be a part in Travis's murder too. Personal information released via. Face book would aid a stalker. Insight into routines, financial records and pictures of romantic interest are out there for the world to see. Social media disconnects the intimate dialogue afforded by face to face communication. The anonymity cloaks with a false sence of security. Social media has been linked with the development of narcism in young people.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Well if you don't agree with a theory, do you typically laugh at that person to
Their face in your daily engagements?

That's cool.

It was like something from the middle ages, he almost called them vampires or werewolves .. I'm sorry, but really?

 

[Cate49]

2Hip2: it would be interesting to see if psychopathic, anti-social behavior and agression can/have been treated with hormone therapy. Found reference the use of injection Medroxyprogesterone for above mentioned behaviors. It would concern me that hormone treatments could cause hormone sensitive cancers.

 

[human]

As a teacher, we had classes on cortisol and the effects on children. We were taught methods to deal with the issues.

For instance, some teens look at an accidental bump as an aggressive move. This is something that can be discussed and dealt with.

Daycare may have a high cortisol effect.

I worked with young children and accidentally found something that made a huge difference. It was "fake mother" .

I would take a picture of the mother ( I worked with people in poverty so many were single mothers).

I laminated the picture and gave it to the child to hold. That seemed to calm them a lot. Whenever I found it , I would go put it back in the child's locker. Throughout the day, children would take out the picture, then leave it when comforted. Normally, I expect children to take care of their own possessions, but in this case, I took care of it for them as I did not want "mother" to get lost.

Another thing I learned was that children that need something are the only ones who will need it.

For example, I did not allow any toys from home, except sometimes. Sometimes a chid needed some stuffed animal or other comfort thing. I would explain to the children that so an so needed the object because s/he was sad or whatever. The other children accepted it and the next day may have brought their own object.

The children who did not need their object quickly forgot about it and the others were not even interested.

We also had pads with little bumps on them for children to sit in. Or objects to squeeze if they were upset. There are all kinds of strategies to lower cortisol.

 

[human]

Oh, and problem solving. Rather than punishment, discussing better methods of dealing with problems.

The only thing that received time out was aggression to another child. But I have to say, that was rare. Really, using great methods makes all of the difference in the world

 

[SMK]

As a teacher, we had classes on cortisol and the effects on children. We were taught methods to deal with the issues.

For instance, some teens look at an accidental bump as an aggressive move. This is something that can be discussed and dealt with.

Daycare may have a high cortisol effect.

I worked with young children and accidentally found something that made a huge difference. It was "fake mother" .

I would take a picture of the mother ( I worked with people in poverty so many were single mothers).

I laminated the picture and gave it to the child to hold. That seemed to calm them a lot. Whenever I found it , I would go put it back in the child's locker. Throughout the day, children would take out the picture, then leave it when comforted. Normally, I expect children to take care of their own possessions, but in this case, I took care of it for them as I did not want "mother" to get lost.

Another thing I learned was that children that need something are the only ones who will need it.

For example, I did not allow any toys from home, except sometimes. Sometimes a chid needed some stuffed animal or other comfort thing. I would explain to the children that so an so needed the object because s/he was sad or whatever. The other children accepted it and the next day may have brought their own object.

The children who did not need their object quickly forgot about it and the others were not even interested.

We also had pads with little bumps on them for children to sit in. Or objects to squeeze if they were upset. There are all kinds of strategies to lower cortisol.

These sound wonderful - and in this situation, were badly needed. But in the big picture, I believe a return to the one-income household, and the understanding that mothers are needed at home with young children, is really called for. I know its the ideal, but an ideal that should be striven for.

 

[human]

I believe that best would be if each parent worked half time. Then mother would have an outside interest and Dad would be with the kids as well.

Breast feeding is best for many months of life, so mother is kind of stuck. Pumping, yes. But, that is difficult.

In France, a nurse comes to the home for several months to help. We think our way is the only way, but it sure is not the way it is in other countries.

I know some people may be daycare providers on here or people may have to use them, but no one loves the child as a parent does. Providing the parent is not a psycho!