Poll: If an R confessed, would you accept it?

[BBB167893]

It seems fibers are important to RDI theory.

Quite so. In the book, I spend a fairly large amount of time on them.

It seems RDI believes the fibers carry more weight than the DNA.

I can't speak for other people, but this RDI believes that. I have my reasons.

Who says JR's fibers were on the tape? What is your source?

Sorry about that. I should have been more specific. JR's fibers, to my knowledge, were not on the tape. PR's were.

How does this source know the fibers belong to JR?

Well, of the fibers that were found that are attributed to him, the shirt was made in Israel, so it was fairly distinctive.

Do the fibers contain DNA or something?

Are you speaking in general?

Was a spectrographic analysis performed? By whom? Where are the results?

If memory serves, there was a spectrographic analysis mentioned, but I couldn't say by whom.

[*]Why wouldn't fibers transfer from JR and PR --> JBR's clothing --> intruder --> tape or cord?

That's a good question. They're all good, actually. But as I've mentioned in the past, JB's clothing didn't have those fibers all over it. Just those areas. Which suggests to me that those items came into direct contact with the clothing worn by the two parents. Moreover, when asked as to how her fibers got onto those items, PR didn't give any of the explanations that you offer. Instead, she admitted that they were hers and tried to account for them with a story that just dug her deeper. (AFTER she had two years to think about the answer)

[*]Does JR's fiber on the tape prove ownership?

PR's fibers. And alone you would have a time proving ownership. But as I've often pointed out, in this case very few things should be taken alone. If it was a used piece--and there's reason to think that it was--then it becomes a question of why would an intruder bring a used piece of tape, or did he search the house until he found one?

Anyway, wouldn't it have been better for RDI if the DNA were owned by an R, and not an unknown male?

HOTYH, if there's one hallmark of our relationship, it's that we've always been honest with each other. You've asked some good, solid questions and you seem to be making an honest attempt to better understand RDI mindset (this one, at any rate). So the very least I can do is give you an honest answer. I can say honestly and unequivocally, yes it would. On a couple of levels. One, if it were semen or even blood, the kind of DNA you should not find on JB, it would pretty much be a lead-pipe cinch. Two, even if it wasn't incriminating DNA, it still wouldn't leave much room for doubt.

But, I would also say that, in murder as in life, we very rarely get everything we want and that often skill, cunning and pure cojones can make up for weaknesses in the physical case. But then, you're not the one who needed to be told that. Also, it must be proven that the DNA is from the crime itself and from that night. It's not a straight shot from "unknown male" to "intruder." Far from it.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

[*]Why wouldn't fibers transfer from JR and PR --> JBR's clothing --> intruder --> tape or cord? That's a good question. They're all good, actually. But as I've mentioned in the past, JB's clothing didn't have those fibers all over it. Just those areas. Which suggests to me that those items came into direct contact with the clothing worn by the two parents. Moreover, when asked as to how her fibers got onto those items, PR didn't give any of the explanations that you offer. Instead, she admitted that they were hers and tried to account for them with a story that just dug her deeper. (AFTER she had two years to think about the answer

JR or PR's clothing fibers --> JBR's clothing --> Intruder's hands --> "Just those areas"

Whats wrong with this? It might be three transfers but each one is a given!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

If memory serves, there was a spectrographic analysis mentioned, but I couldn't say by whom.

According to Ravyn, Bode could've made a mistake because they're only human, rendering the DNA study invalid. But we don't even know who did the spectrographic analysis? Are we just supposed to take somebodys word for it that JR and PR fibers were consistent with those on the cord and tape? Whose word are we taking anyway? Who is the fiber expert that excludes unsourced fibers? How many fibers would suggest a direct contact? How many fibers were actually there? Who counted? How did they count them?

Did the spectrographic analysis include fibers from both PR and JR's clothing, or just one of them?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Well, of the fibers that were found that are attributed to him, the shirt was made in Israel, so it was fairly distinctive.

Nuts and bolts, if you don't mind.

By what means were these fibers attributed to him?

 

[madeleine]

Was smiling when the R's attorney's said (one year later when handing over the clothes to LE) that "hey,we don't even know if these are the same clothes but you can have them!"

My God,this was just a game from day one,no wonder so many ppl quit in disgust!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Was smiling when the R's attorney's said (one year later when handing over the clothes to LE) that "hey,we don't even know if these are the same clothes but you can have them!"

My God,this was just a game from day one,no wonder so many ppl quit in disgust!

The FBI said 'look at the parents' the same day, and LE didn't collect the clothing they were wearing at the time until a year later? Is that real?

Its an interesting point you've made though, but what about those darn fiber tests? Who did them? How did they determine there was a high fiber count only possible with direct contact between the parents clothing and JBR's underwear? Because there are other transfers more likely than that one that easily place parental fibers in 'just those areas'.

 

[BBB167893]

[*]Why wouldn't fibers transfer from JR and PR --> JBR's clothing --> intruder --> tape or cord? That's a good question. They're all good, actually. But as I've mentioned in the past, JB's clothing didn't have those fibers all over it. Just those areas. Which suggests to me that those items came into direct contact with the clothing worn by the two parents. Moreover, when asked as to how her fibers got onto those items, PR didn't give any of the explanations that you offer. Instead, she admitted that they were hers and tried to account for them with a story that just dug her deeper. (AFTER she had two years to think about the answer

JR or PR's clothing fibers --> JBR's clothing --> Intruder's hands --> "Just those areas"

Whats wrong with this? It might be three transfers but each one is a given!

Again, your question is solid. But I've answered it, in a way. Like I said, those fibers would have to be on JB's clothing in order for his hands to pick them up. But no source mentions them as on her clothing or body, and I doubt she was vacuumed afterwards. Also, I will stress again: I mentioned how PR's story as to how the fibers got into those places just dug her deeper, but I should be more specific. Instead of offering the kind of plausible ideas that you present, she claimed that her fibers transferred when she lay on top of JB that afternoon when her body was brought up. The problem is, JR had already written in DOI that he covered JB's body with the second blanket before PR even came into the room. This would require, in the words of Wendy Murphy, "flat-out magic."

According to Ravyn, Bode could've made a mistake because they're only human, rendering the DNA study invalid. But we don't even know who did the spectrographic analysis?

I'm not saying it's perfect, HOTYH. It's my understanding that the FBI performed many of those tests. As for finding out for sure, I guess we'd have to ask the people who were there. I actually tried, since I figured it would be a good opportunity to get some quotes for the book. But they're not in a talking mood lately. Sure would be nice if we could get our hands on that case file.

Moreover, I'm not comfortable with the comparison to Bode. What you had here was when the investigation was at its height and many organizations were working their butts off for several years (what they were trying to accomplish has been strongly debated, but no one denies that they were giving their all), vs Bode who, despite statements to the contrary, are Johnny-come-latelys to the case (and that's being generous). But I digress.

Are we just supposed to take somebodys word for it that JR and PR fibers were consistent with those on the cord and tape?

Ah, that's the beauty of it! We don't HAVE to take their word for it! We've got PR on tape copping to it! (In a way that only serves to undermine their claims, I might add!) As for JR, he basically gave all I need to know with his response. "A hit dog barks," I believe the old saying goes...

Whose word are we taking anyway? Who is the fiber expert that excludes unsourced fibers? How many fibers would suggest a direct contact? How many fibers were actually there? Who counted? How did they count them?

Unfortunately, you'd have to ask them those questions. There is a glimmer here. PMPT describes four fibers on the tape right in a line, whatever that does for you.

Did the spectrographic analysis include fibers from both PR and JR's clothing, or just one of them?

Both, I would assume.

Nuts and bolts, if you don't mind. By what means were these fibers attributed to him?

Like I said, best bet would be to ask them. JR's reaction didn't help matters.

The FBI said 'look at the parents' the same day, and LE didn't collect the clothing they were wearing at the time until a year later? Is that real?

Parts of it, anyway. I'm not aware that the FBI said "look at the parents" on the same day. In fact, I was under the impression that they didn't say it until months later. But as for collecting the clothes a year later, THAT's legit. Several LE agents remarked on that, saying that the clothes could have been collected much earlier if the DA's office had bothered to issue the proper warrants, which they said that they would not do. Is it any wonder why RDI holds the DA's office in such low esteem?

Because there are other transfers more likely than that one that easily place parental fibers in 'just those areas'.

Too bad the Rs couldn't think of any!

 

[madeleine]

How did 4 of PR's fibers end up on the duct tape if the tape was brought by the intruder?:waitasec:

 

[madeleine]

And maybe it's off topic but why did the intruder chose one of the few spots in the house where he would have had no escape from if caught???
You might think that:
1.A parent could wake up anytime and search for the kid
2.An executive like JR might own a gun


Why the basement where it would have been impossible for him to escape from if necessary?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

And maybe it's off topic but why did the intruder chose one of the few spots in the house where he would have had no escape from if caught???
You might think that:
1.A parent could wake up anytime and search for the kid
2.An executive like JR might own a gun


Why the basement where it would have been impossible for him to escape from if necessary?

Unlike you, I have been given no real, tangible reason to doubt the ransom notes description of two gentlemen plus author = 3 intruders. That is, I myself have been unable to rule out three people. It makes many things possible that would have to happen for JBR to be moved from her bedroom to the basement without disturbing the other occupants.

I believe one intruder sat in the kitchen watching the front stairs, and had already placed the ransom note on the rear stairs as a sort of tripwire. The other two were with JBR in the basement.

Then, if either parent came downstairs what do you think would happen?

 

[Ravyn]

But from the time the 911 called was made procedures and or protrol call went out the window....From the start this case was to never be solved...And there is no evidence other than this DNA showing the intruder was there...Much less 3 of them...But with everyone in and out that morning...How do we even know we have anything to help in this case....Well unless the intruders grabbed the R's clothes while committing this crime we have fiber evidence....I hope anyway....Cause I have alot of questions but can't be answered....But one that been bugging me if the tape wasn't stcky how can anything gets stuck to it....Cause it couldn't be sticky cause there was no residue around JonBenet's mouth....Also about the drops of blood that was used how many test before they just can't be used...And why didn't the CBI ever released on their finding about the fiber evidence....And how does the examiner put on the gloves they used, with bare hand right...

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

But from the time the 911 called was made procedures and or protrol call went out the window....From the start this case was to never be solved...And there is no evidence other than this DNA showing the intruder was there...Much less 3 of them...But with everyone in and out that morning...How do we even know we have anything to help in this case....Well unless the intruders grabbed the R's clothes while committing this crime we have fiber evidence....I hope anyway....Cause I have alot of questions but can't be answered....But one that been bugging me if the tape wasn't stcky how can anything gets stuck to it....Cause it couldn't be sticky cause there was no residue around JonBenet's mouth....

I understand there were some fibers stuck to the tape. We believe they were parental clothing fibers and we think the FBI told us that.

What phone was used to call 911? The kitchen phone, I bet.

 

[Ravyn]

I understand there were some fibers stuck to the tape. We believe they were parental clothing fibers and we think the FBI told us that.

What phone was used to call 911? The kitchen phone, I bet.

Then is this the reason why CBI never reported their findings cause the FBI was right....Cause if CBI found different it would be brought out by Lacy...And I didn't say anything about what phone was used just said after 911 call was made....

 

[madeleine]

Unlike you, I have been given no real, tangible reason to doubt the ransom notes description of two gentlemen plus author = 3 intruders. That is, I myself have been unable to rule out three people. It makes many things possible that would have to happen for JBR to be moved from her bedroom to the basement without disturbing the other occupants.

I believe one intruder sat in the kitchen watching the front stairs, and had already placed the ransom note on the rear stairs as a sort of tripwire. The other two were with JBR in the basement.

Then, if either parent came downstairs what do you think would happen?

So you can't rule out 3 people (there;s absolutely no evidence,not even a clue that there were 3 intruders in that house that night) but you instantly rule out the prime suspects.Funny!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

So you can't rule out 3 people (there;s absolutely no evidence,not even a clue that there were 3 intruders in that house that night) but you instantly rule out the prime suspects.Funny!

I have not ruled out the prime suspects. They happen to be intruders, thats all. Read the papers lately?

 

[madeleine]

I have not ruled out the prime suspects. They happen to be intruders, thats all. Read the papers lately?

Okay,your prime suspect is..............someone..............
And since when do we blindly believe anything a headline says?Kinda naive IMO.Especially since the headlines quote a clown DA like ML.

 

[madeleine]

Did YOU read on the other hand how many experts (from A to Z) disagreed with her decision,yeah the one quoted in those headlines you love to mention so much?
Cause those quoting the new DA said no one is ruled out as a suspect in this case.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

From RMN:

---------------------------------------------------

As part of its investigation of the JonBenet Ramsey homicide, the Boulder police identified genetic material with apparent evidentiary value. Over time, the police continued to investigate DNA, including taking advantage of advances in the science and methodology. One of the results of their efforts was that they identified genetic material and a DNA profile from drops of JonBenet's blood located in the crotch of the underwear she was wearing at the time her body was discovered. That genetic profile belongs to a male and does not belong to anyone in the Ramsey family.

On March 24, 2008, (new DNA technology at The Bode Technology Group Inc., of 1Lorton Va.) informed us that they had recovered and identified genetic material from both sides of the waist area of the long johns. The unknown male profile previously identified from the inside crotch area of the underwear matched the DNA recovered from the long johns at Bode.
* The unexplained third-party DNA on the clothing of the victim is very significant and powerful evidence. It is very unlikely that there would be an innocent explanation for DNA found at three different locations on two separate items of clothing worn by the victim at the time of her murder. This is particularly true in this case because the matching DNA profiles were found on genetic material from inside the crotch of the victim's underwear and near the waist on both sides of her long johns, and because concerted efforts that might identify a source, and perhaps an innocent explanation, were unsuccessful.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I can't find a thing wrong with this reasoning. This seems more professional than anything RDI has had lately. Sorry but your so-called experts seem to be pretty darn silent these days.

That the R's were cleared by DNA was carried by news organizations around the world, including CNN, MSNBC, FOXNEWS, BBC, even in China.

 

[BBB167893]

Well, there were in fact some experts who doubted it. The ones who haven't been bullied into silence thanks to threats of lawsuits. Clint Van Zandt comes to mind. He said that day that it was still 50-50.

And as for arguing with that reasoning, how much time have you got?

 

[cynic]

From RMN:

---------------------------------------------------

As part of its investigation of the JonBenet Ramsey homicide, the Boulder police identified genetic material with apparent evidentiary value. Over time, the police continued to investigate DNA, including taking advantage of advances in the science and methodology. One of the results of their efforts was that they identified genetic material and a DNA profile from drops of JonBenet's blood located in the crotch of the underwear she was wearing at the time her body was discovered. That genetic profile belongs to a male and does not belong to anyone in the Ramsey family.

On March 24, 2008, (new DNA technology at The Bode Technology Group Inc., of 1Lorton Va.) informed us that they had recovered and identified genetic material from both sides of the waist area of the long johns. The unknown male profile previously identified from the inside crotch area of the underwear matched the DNA recovered from the long johns at Bode.
* The unexplained third-party DNA on the clothing of the victim is very significant and powerful evidence. It is very unlikely that there would be an innocent explanation for DNA found at three different locations on two separate items of clothing worn by the victim at the time of her murder. This is particularly true in this case because the matching DNA profiles were found on genetic material from inside the crotch of the victim's underwear and near the waist on both sides of her long johns, and because concerted efforts that might identify a source, and perhaps an innocent explanation, were unsuccessful.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I can't find a thing wrong with this reasoning. This seems more professional than anything RDI has had lately. Sorry but your so-called experts seem to be pretty darn silent these days.

That the R's were cleared by DNA was carried by news organizations around the world, including CNN, MSNBC, FOXNEWS, BBC, even in China.

Try reading this (again)
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90999"]DNA Revisited - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]