Porepunkah shooting: Two officers dead and another wounded after shooting at High Country property, Victoria, Australia #2

[reepbot]

Ok fair enough. It sounds like you are of the opinion that DF is deceased.
Do you see what I mean though? Its putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. You're trying to work out the cause of death before knowing if he has actually died.

For what it's worth, my opinion is he's still alive. My reason for that is simply because he's not been found. I think he's planned something like this for some time and was reasonably well prepared. By all accounts he knows Mt Buffalo inside and out. If he had made it past road blocks, police etc early on he could be literally anywhere.

I'd be surprised if he was still alive.

 

[reepbot]

Given df history why wasn't a police negotiator called in instead of continuing for in excess of 20 minutes before breaking into the bus?. Makes you wonder if this operation was flawed and the flaws resulted in the unnecessary deaths of 2 policeman. Keep in mind DF was not being targeted for murder or the like.

They seemed to think that the detective who was killed was enough in dealing with Dezi based on the fact that he had a rapport with Freeman. Though what they mean by rapport I don't know. Like how much interaction did Dezi have with that particular cop over the years? Must have been a significant amount for them to think that.

 

[seekingjustice**]

The inside story of the sex assault charge against Dezi Freeman that sparked the deadly shootout with police​

For the first time, the details of the shocking sexual abuse allegations against fugitive gunman Dezi Freeman can be revealed.

The disturbing episode involving a young girl is alleged to have taken place years ago during a family outing at Mount Buffalo, the same Victorian high country wilderness where Freeman is now believed to be in hiding.

According to friends of Freeman, the allegations against him centre around a day trip when the self-styled naturist took his children and their friend on a hike to a waterhole behind his property.

It was there that the father-of-three allegedly stripped off to swim naked in front of his sons and the young girl without warning.

'Dezi believes in living like ancient tribes, living off the land and being nude,' a friend told Daily Mail.

The inside story of the sex assault charge against Dezi Freeman

Details of the historic sexual assault allegation against Dezi Freeman, that sparked a deadly stand-off with police, have been revealed.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[essareem]

The inside story of the sex assault charge against Dezi Freeman that sparked the deadly shootout with police​

For the first time, the details of the shocking sexual abuse allegations against fugitive gunman Dezi Freeman can be revealed.

The disturbing episode involving a young girl is alleged to have taken place years ago during a family outing at Mount Buffalo, the same Victorian high country wilderness where Freeman is now believed to be in hiding.

According to friends of Freeman, the allegations against him centre around a day trip when the self-styled naturist took his children and their friend on a hike to a waterhole behind his property.

It was there that the father-of-three allegedly stripped off to swim naked in front of his sons and the young girl without warning.

'Dezi believes in living like ancient tribes, living off the land and being nude,' a friend told Daily Mail.

The inside story of the sex assault charge against Dezi Freeman

Details of the historic sexual assault allegation against Dezi Freeman, that sparked a deadly stand-off with police, have been revealed.

www.dailymail.co.uk

It certainly aligns with what I expected.

 

[reepbot]

It certainly aligns with what I expected.

I kind of wondered if it was something like that too. Though I'm surprised the specifics of the allegations have been made so public.

 

[essareem]

I kind of wondered if it was something like that too. Though I'm surprised the specifics of the allegations have been made so public.

Agreed, I was not expecting it to ever be made public in such detail.

 

[Ijustgarden]

It certainly aligns with what I expected.

That’s according to DF’s friends right? I’ve just read the article and couldn’t see any other source mentioned to support this as the case other than “friends”.

I hope they find him soon.

 

[Cryptic]

Many "normal" people commit crimes, but Freeman's behaviour aligns with ASD traits like sensory overload and rigid thinking, which could have signaled to police the need for a DLO to de-escalate. Acknowledging this might have led to a less confrontational approach, potentially altering the tragic outcome, IMO.

I am all for de escalation, in situations where de-escalation is possible. Militant Sovereign Citizens, however, deliberately and consciously set themselves on a confrontational course with the government.

Once that mind set is developed, the only de escalation that they are willing to accept is that the government never makes them do anything that they do not want to do.

And.... they can have a long list of things that they do not want to do: Answer questions about criminal charges, pay taxes, register vehicles, obey traffic laws, obey weapons laws etc.

In short, my bet is the police could have brought a long any number of therapists, counselors, trained negotiators etc. Not only would doing so place their lives at risk, but Freeman's end response would very still be:

I am not going to recognize any governmental authority in regards to anything that I don't want to do. This is one of the many things that I don't want to do.

 

[Cryptic]

That’s according to DF’s friends right? I’ve just read the article and couldn’t see any other source mentioned to support this as the case other than “friends”.

Well said.

I wonder if the Freeman has a history of "Aww shucks- just misunderstood" nudity exhibitions with other children?

The possible exhibitions were then not pursued because the parents decided to simply break contact and not go to the police?

 

[Marg944]

'Incredibly rare': The million-dollar question on Dezi Freeman's arrest reward​

​

There's $1 million available for anyone who can help facilitate the arrest of accused double murderer Dezi Freeman. But do financial incentives actually help solve crimes?​

“The size of this payout for an arrest is unprecedented in Victoria — and unusual in its aim compared to others. A financial reward is more often used to source information that leads to a successful conviction.

But in this case, police believe the amount will appeal to people who may be helping Freeman, says associate professor Terry Goldsworthy, an expert in criminology at Bond University and a former police detective of 28 years.

"The reward for Freeman is stimulating people's greed," he told SBS News. "It's interesting that the police are appealing through a base instinct that people could make some money."

'Incredibly rare': The million-dollar question on Dezi Freeman's arrest reward

There's $1 million available for anyone who can help facilitate the arrest of accused double murderer Dezi Freeman. But do financial incentives actually help solve crimes?

www.sbs.com.au

 

[Marg944]

Heroic final act of police officer gunned down in Dezi Freeman raid is revealed - as haunting footage captures the last-second decision that saved his colleague's life​

“Chilling new vision from the Dezi Freeman siege shows the remarkable bravery of a police officer who saved a younger colleague just moments before he was gunned down inside the fugitive's bus.

Detective Senior Constable Neal Thompson was killed in the line of duty during the dramatic standoff, but in his final act he moved his fellow officer out of the firing line.”

Thompson and Detective Senior Constable Timothy Doyle, among other officers, took turns trying to jar open the bus door with a crowbar.

But in the final moments before gunfire erupts, Thompson stepped forward for one last attempt.

This time, before prising open the window, he instructed Doyle to move out of sight.

Doyle dutifully obeyed and stepped back, but Thompson paused before he insisted he moves further still.

It was an order that saved his life.”

Victoria Police confirmed Thompson has been posthumously awarded the Victoria Police Star in recognition of his bravery and sacrifice.

Heroic final act of cop gunned down in Dezi Freeman raid

The Daily Mail has seen the extraordinary footage of the 27-minute standoff showing Freeman, 56, barricaded inside his ramshackle bus with his wife Mali and their two year old son.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[drsleuth]

The inside story of the sex assault charge against Dezi Freeman that sparked the deadly shootout with police​

For the first time, the details of the shocking sexual abuse allegations against fugitive gunman Dezi Freeman can be revealed.

The disturbing episode involving a young girl is alleged to have taken place years ago during a family outing at Mount Buffalo, the same Victorian high country wilderness where Freeman is now believed to be in hiding.

According to friends of Freeman, the allegations against him centre around a day trip when the self-styled naturist took his children and their friend on a hike to a waterhole behind his property.

It was there that the father-of-three allegedly stripped off to swim naked in front of his sons and the young girl without warning.

'Dezi believes in living like ancient tribes, living off the land and being nude,' a friend told Daily Mail.

The inside story of the sex assault charge against Dezi Freeman

Details of the historic sexual assault allegation against Dezi Freeman, that sparked a deadly stand-off with police, have been revealed.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I'm not sure how "friends" knew anything about the warrant & allegations IMO

In yesterdays police presser a journalist asked this question ( @ 25 : 20 )

Journalist : Had Dezi Freeman previously been questioned in relation to the warrant that was being attempted to be served when the incident occurred?

Kelly : I do not believe he had been, no.

 

[Cryptic]

I'd be surprised if he was still alive.

Me too.

Little voices are telling me that he is not the bush expert that he boasts about. Rather, the little voices are telling me that Freeman and I have somethings in common:

I like recreational hiking, using topographic maps to study terrain, swimming in creeks and lakes. I also like native Indian lore and make native weapons on occasion. I have decent skills with fishing, crab trapping. Less with hunting.

Like Freeman, I know "where the creeks are" in my favorite areas. I can find yummy berries and wild onions- well, assuming that I have the time and meaningful amounts are in the area. I can probably rig improvised crawfish / crab traps and fish traps. Does not mean that I am going to catch alot of anything though.

None of that is going to keep me alive long term in the woods while trying to evade police. I would get exhausted, hungry and even in a relatively wet area, thirsty fast. Then, I would get lethargic. Being tired, uncomfortable, hungry, and thirsty also impacts critical thinking skills.

In short, I fully agree with you. Freeman has likely either committed suicide, or is being sheltered. I am leaning towards suicide.

 

[reepbot]

Me too.

Little voices are telling me that he is not the bush expert that he boasts about. Rather, the little voices are telling me that Freeman and I have somethings in common:

I like recreational hiking, using topographic maps to study terrain, swimming in creeks and lakes. I also like native Indian lore and make native weapons on occasion. I have decent skills with fishing, crab trapping. Less with hunting.

Like Freeman, I know "where the creeks are" in my favorite areas. I can find yummy berries and wild onions- well, assuming that I have the time and meaningful amounts are in the area. I can probably rig improvised crawfish / crab traps and fish traps. Does not mean that I am going to catch alot of anything though.

None of that is going to keep me alive long term in the woods while trying to evade police. I would get exhausted, hungry and even in a relatively wet area, thirsty fast. Then, I would get lethargic. Being tired, uncomfortable, hungry, and thirsty also impacts critical thinking skills.

In short, I fully agree with you. Freeman has likely either committed suicide, or is being sheltered. I am leaning towards suicide.

Yes, though the police seem to think that people are helping him? If so, I'm curious how they are doing that. How did he communicate with them? It just seems so risky for Dezi to do that.

 

[SouthAussie]

It wouldn't surprise me if Filby was holed up in a stocked apocalypse bunker. Hoping to stay low for a few months, then move on when the searches die down a bit.

There have been reports of bangs as if the police might have been flash-banging potential hideouts.

imo

 

[essareem]

I am all for de escalation, in situations where de-escalation is possible. Militant Sovereign Citizens, however, deliberately and consciously set themselves on a confrontational course with the government.

Once that mind set is developed, the only de escalation that they are willing to accept is that the government never makes them do anything that they do not want to do.

And.... they can have a long list of things that they do not want to do: Answer questions about criminal charges, pay taxes, register vehicles, obey traffic laws, obey weapons laws etc.

In short, my bet is the police could have brought a long any number of therapists, counselors, trained negotiators etc. Not only would doing so place their lives at risk, but Freeman's end response would very still be:

I am not going to recognize any governmental authority in regards to anything that I don't want to do. This is one of the many things that I don't want to do.

I agree that a person with an ideology like his would most likely be set on rejecting authority, making de-escalation tough, in my opinion.

With a fresh head I have thought more about this.

So, according to news articles (links provided to each source):

1. Dezi had been claiming disability payments for more than 20 years, according to friends and his neighbours. (1) (2)
Note: Importantly, there are no media reports alleging he was faking his disability to receive payments.

2. Dezi self-identified on court documents as a "disability pensioner".

3. One former associate, who had known him since the 90's, describes him per the following:
But the man described Freeman as “unemployable” because of his issues with authority and his mental health.

Freeman confirmed in documents he filed in the Victorian supreme court last year that he was a “disability pensioner” whose wife and three children survived on a single Centrelink payment.

“He couldn’t hold a job because he had mental health issues … [and] as soon as there was any authority, he didn’t react to it well,” the former friend said. “He wasn’t violent or anything, he just didn’t tolerate it.”

4. Dezi worked sporadically as a photographer and as a diving / abseiling instructor at The Gorge near Bright.

5. Quite a few news articles say that he was into deer hunting, with one associate claiming Dezi could "could carry two freshly killed deer on his back" (1) (2) (3)

6. Dezi's own Youtube channel - Buffalo Dezi - shows him canoeing through rapids.

7. He is otherwise described by associates in many news articles as being fit / physically active / similar description. (1) (2) (3)

In my opinion, points 1 through 7 raise questions about the nature of his disability, whether physical or mental, which could have been an invisible disability.

Notably, Dezi was scheduled to see a doctor for his deteriorating mental state on the very day of the incident.

According to this Daily Mail article:

The standoff involved 10 officers, lasted about 27 minutes, and for part of that time, they used a crowbar to pry the door, and one officer forced open a window to enter. The article describes the video as a "fraught confrontation", using descriptions such as "his voice shook with rage", "Freeman's emotions became increasingly fraught.", "His voice rose and cracked", "But Freeman only spiralled further.".

So in my opinion, it sounds like, despite the officers' patience with him (indicated by the 27 minutes, and the article's comments about the officers, "he was using his experience to try and defuse the situation.", "She once again took the warrant to the door, urging Freeman to read it and 'just take a breath.'"), the situation continually escalated.

According to the same Daily Mail article, during the standoff, Dezi "claimed he had autism and post-traumatic stress disorder, and insisted a disability liaison officer be present."

Given all of the above mentioned reports of Dezi's mental health struggles and his claimed conditions (autism and PTSD), even without formal diagnoses, I can't help but wonder if alternative approaches could have altered the outcome. Of course, hindsight is 20/20. I just don't understand why at the least a trained negotiator wasn't deployed.

According to this Guardian article: a former friend has questioned whether police were aware of his deteriorating mental health, suggesting that sending 10 officers to his door to execute a warrant would have been “the worst thing for him”.

and

"Given Freeman’s history with firearms and interactions with police, the man questioned the decision of officers to execute the warrant as they had on Tuesday.

The Victorian chief police commissioner, Mike Bush, has confirmed that a risk assessment was done and that it had considered deploying the special operations group from Melbourne, but did not request the elite tactical unit."

Has anyone found reports on successful de-escalations in similar cases?

 

[BreakingNews]

Ok. I'm seeing a bus with a makeshift kitchen at the front. I'm guessing that there is also a back entrance from the bus to toilet/bathroom. So he shoots 3 officers. One had gotten into the bus feet first. Reports have stated than he fired out the bus door, then out the window. Wonder in what order. Other police hide. So he, wife and child escape. How? Did he go to underground bunker or something, and she simple took her son to her friend??? How did she get away unseen?? I am totally confused. Maybe I need to go back to the start of this case.

 

[BreakingNews]

I agree that a person with an ideology like his would most likely be set on rejecting authority, making de-escalation tough, in my opinion.

With a fresh head I have thought more about this.

So, according to news articles (links provided to each source):

1. Dezi had been claiming disability payments for more than 20 years, according to friends and his neighbours. (1) (2)
Note: Importantly, there are no media reports alleging he was faking his disability to receive payments.

2. Dezi self-identified on court documents as a "disability pensioner".

3. One former associate, who had known him since the 90's, describes him per the following:
But the man described Freeman as “unemployable” because of his issues with authority and his mental health.

Freeman confirmed in documents he filed in the Victorian supreme court last year that he was a “disability pensioner” whose wife and three children survived on a single Centrelink payment.

“He couldn’t hold a job because he had mental health issues … [and] as soon as there was any authority, he didn’t react to it well,” the former friend said. “He wasn’t violent or anything, he just didn’t tolerate it.”

4. Dezi worked sporadically as a photographer and as a diving / abseiling instructor at The Gorge near Bright.

5. Quite a few news articles say that he was into deer hunting, with one associate claiming Dezi could "could carry two freshly killed deer on his back" (1) (2) (3)

6. Dezi's own Youtube channel - Buffalo Dezi - shows him canoeing through rapids.

7. He is otherwise described by associates in many news articles as being fit / physically active / similar description. (1) (2) (3)

In my opinion, points 1 through 7 raise questions about the nature of his disability, whether physical or mental, which could have been an invisible disability.

Notably, Dezi was scheduled to see a doctor for his deteriorating mental state on the very day of the incident.

According to this Daily Mail article:

The standoff involved 10 officers, lasted about 27 minutes, and for part of that time, they used a crowbar to pry the door, and one officer forced open a window to enter. The article describes the video as a "fraught confrontation", using descriptions such as "his voice shook with rage", "Freeman's emotions became increasingly fraught.", "His voice rose and cracked", "But Freeman only spiralled further.".

So in my opinion, it sounds like, despite the officers' patience with him (indicated by the 27 minutes, and the article's comments about the officers, "he was using his experience to try and defuse the situation.", "She once again took the warrant to the door, urging Freeman to read it and 'just take a breath.'"), the situation continually escalated.

According to the same Daily Mail article, during the standoff, Dezi "claimed he had autism and post-traumatic stress disorder, and insisted a disability liaison officer be present."

Given all of the above mentioned reports of Dezi's mental health struggles and his claimed conditions (autism and PTSD), even without formal diagnoses, I can't help but wonder if alternative approaches could have altered the outcome. Of course, hindsight is 20/20. I just don't understand why at the least a trained negotiator wasn't deployed.

According to this Guardian article: a former friend has questioned whether police were aware of his deteriorating mental health, suggesting that sending 10 officers to his door to execute a warrant would have been “the worst thing for him”.

and

"Given Freeman’s history with firearms and interactions with police, the man questioned the decision of officers to execute the warrant as they had on Tuesday.

The Victorian chief police commissioner, Mike Bush, has confirmed that a risk assessment was done and that it had considered deploying the special operations group from Melbourne, but did not request the elite tactical unit."

Has anyone found reports on successful de-escalations in similar cases?

I'm not sure someone so anti authority could be calmed in this case. It sounds like the police officer who knew him, handled the situation very tactfully. IMO I believe the police did the best they could under the circumstances.
Btw, all of his mental issues could have derived from his belief in Sovereign Citizens. I don't see it as relevant to probe into any other disability.

 

[BrianM]

Well said.

I wonder if the Freeman has a history of "Aww shucks- just misunderstood" nudity exhibitions with other children?

The possible exhibitions were then not pursued because the parents decided to simply break contact and not go to the police?

If that were the case, wouldn't it have come out by now? I've not seen any mentions in news articles or otherwise across the web.

 

[BrianM]

Ok. I'm seeing a bus with a makeshift kitchen at the front. I'm guessing that there is also a back entrance from the bus to toilet/bathroom. So he shoots 3 officers. One had gotten into the bus feet first. Reports have stated than he fired out the bus door, then out the window. Wonder in what order. Other police hide. So he, wife and child escape. How? Did he go to underground bunker or something, and she simple took her son to her friend??? How did she get away unseen?? I am totally confused. Maybe I need to go back to the start of this case.

Her, her toddler and teenage son apparently. I can't understand how the whole family managed to leave without being caught. I guess it will all be revealed in time