Post sentencing discussion

[Interested Bystander]

Thanks Mr Jitty, the only way we'll ever get close to cracking this is with a bit of 'crowd sleuthing' and I have a very open mind.

First bangs - I agree. I think they're earlier than Roux and Masipa. What they are remains a mystery but I'm now favouring anything that keeps Reeva out of the toilet so that her screams are easily heard. Warning shots is quite possible IMO but so too are other things as you suggest.

Second bangs - agreed, they must be the gunshots (I don't think I've ever thought otherwise time-wise, just hadn't figured that maybe there are three possible sets of sounds until I suggested it to Giles a little while ago). The time has to be a few seconds after the Johnson call (but I think his time is wrong so that doesn't help), before Dr Stipp's successful call at 03:15:51, allowing him time for a failed 082-something call first, and allow time for Mike N to check the house and hear crying "no, please, please, no". Hence I have it 03:14:43-03:14:59 but a few seconds later may also work. Mike N would not have taken long to go round the house checking doors.

What Mike N hears in itself confirms the shots are before he calls.

The fact that the judge totally ignored this very clear statement I found unbelievable. I also find that the fact she is able to totally disregard any of the earwitnesses accounts very worrying. With so many witnesses hearing a woman scream and for her to disregard these people, who do not know each other and had not heard each other's versions, is a travesty.

I don't think the bat strikes were heard but I do think they come after the shots. It is the most logical explanation (JuneBug67 I hope you're reading this!)

I think we may be almost agreeing?

BiB

Mrs Stipps thought the screaming was coming towards her. She even looked out into the street to see if anyone was coming down the street. I have always thought OP threatened Reeva and chased her to the bathroom. She must have thought this was her nearest place of refuge . I am sure she would not have thought OP would shoot her.

I listened again to Mr Stipps evidence last night and he clearly said (in my words) after the first 3 bangs he went out on the balcony and heard 3-4 female screams. He made a point of saying this was AFTER the three bangs, not during. The bathroom light was on and he went in to try to ring security but he had to make a number of calls as the first one did not connect, he then tried 10111 which made a strange sound and so he assumed it was out of order. Whilst he was still trying to get through to Security he heard another three loud bangs which he thought were also shots.

This, to me, clearly indicates the first three bangs were not shots (unless out of the window) and it was probably OP bashing things hard enough to make very loud sounds (the bathroom being fully tiled will have enhanced those sounds). Hitting the door hard with a flat bat would probably make plenty of noise but little damage, if any, to the toilet cubicle door. We also have evidence the steel panel on the bath was badly damaged yet nobody asked him about this. He may have found that difficult to answer. Behind the panel was the void beneath the bath. This could have created quite a sounding box IMO.

 

[jay-jay]

:loveyou::loveyou:

I will look forward to your transcription! That's much to work on, thank you now already! I'm curious, what the Batch had said. Didn't understand a single word because of his scratchy voice and the speed, he was in.

Hi, I posted it on the previous page, just in case you missed it :thumb:

 

[Errrr]

BiB

Mrs Stipps thought the screaming was coming towards her. She even looked out into the street to see if anyone was coming down the street. I have always thought OP threatened Reeva and chased her to the bathroom. She must have thought this was her nearest place of refuge . I am sure she would not have thought OP would shoot her.

I listened again to Mr Stipps evidence last night and he clearly said (in my words) after the first 3 bangs he went out on the balcony and heard 3-4 female screams. He made a point of saying this was AFTER the three bangs, not during. The bathroom light was on and he went in to try to ring security but he had to make a number of calls as the first one did not connect, he then tried 10111 which made a strange sound and so he assumed it was out of order. Whilst he was still trying to get through to Security he heard another three loud bangs which he thought were also shots.

It could also be that OP was chasing Her through the house, she runs to bedroom, he breaks down door and chases her with airgun. She runs to get out but he shoots and hits door so she heads towards bathroom where more shots bounce around. She barricades in toilet room and he gets his pistolius.

 

[ColonelMustard]

NPA has consulted with Grant about appeal.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/pistorius-prosecutors-consult-expert-appeal-26420422

"Wits law professor James Grant on Friday wrote on social networking site Twitter that prosecutor Gerrie Nel had asked for his advice on whether the State should appeal."

 

[Deleted member 102539]

OK, the Mark Batchelor interview .. I've probably missed a few 'umms' and 'errs' and 'you know's plus there's a few unrecognisable words .. but this is pretty much all of it ..



.. does anyone know who this 'Gil' (?) person he is referring to who was with Pistorius at the VIP Room? (he wasn't with the cousin, apparently, as we had previously been led to believe)

Edit: Paul_1900 has said it is someone called Guil Yahav http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/ex-bouncer-on-new-violence-charge-1.435511#.VEp6JGe8AYK .. and I've had to change the spelling of 'Gull/Guil' several times as it's spelt differently depending on where you look! I think 'Guil' must be right though.

http://www.2oceansvibe.com/2014/07/15/an-open-letter-to-oscar-pistorius/

Mortimer told The Star on Monday that curtains in the VIP section were drawn so that nobody could see Pistorius was there.

He said he was introduced to Pistorius by Guil Yahav, a former bouncer turned professional poker player who made headlines in 2002 for his role in a vicious murder. He was implicated in the killing of another bouncer, Patrick Caetano, and was eventually fined R10 000 for serious assault.

Mortimer said Yahav asked him if he knew Pistorius. “Oscar said to me ‘oh you are the notorious Jared Mortimer’. I had an issue with one of Oscar’s friends about three years ago. He must have known me because of that,” Mortimer said.

A former bouncer turned poker player who was implicated in the murder of another bouncer? Are you serious? Do you NOT see a trend here?

Please note this article is a piece of satire and is without prejudice



Very interesting!

 

[foxbluff]

BIB - Jimmy Savile made millions for charity, which just goes to show there can be ulterior motives for being (publicly) seen to be generous. For OP, I believe Nel mentioned it would have raised his public profile, which would have been beneficial to OP, from a financial point of view at least.

I see it differently. Number one, OP got to choose which charity/cause he donated to which imho should be appreciated by the receiver lucky enough to have been chosen.

Number two, a dollar is a dollar and the good it can be put to by the receiving charity should have the same value irrespective of whether it came from the nicest person in the world, OP, or was found by them on a street corner.

Sorry... I'm having trouble expressing what I mean.

 

[ColonelMustard]

http://www.2oceansvibe.com/2014/07/15/an-open-letter-to-oscar-pistorius/
...
A former bouncer turned poker player who was implicated in the murder of another bouncer? Are you serious? Do you NOT see a trend here?

I confess, I'm missing your implication on this.

 

[Mr Fossil]

@Interested Bystander & Errrr

The three 'shots' that the Stipps hear first must be reasonably close together. One air rifle pellet through the bedroom door, followed by some unidentified object hitting the bath and then maybe the tiles or door getting hit would be spaced apart and sound very different to each other IMO. I still favour three of the same thing (warning shots out the window, door slams in a struggle, etc.)

 

[jay-jay]

I see it differently. Number one, OP got to choose which charity/cause he donated to which imho should be appreciated by the receiver lucky enough to have been chosen.

Number two, a dollar is a dollar and the good it can be put to by the receiving charity should have the same value irrespective of whether it came from the nicest person in the world, OP, or was found by them on a street corner.

Sorry... I'm having trouble expressing what I mean.

But we're talking specifically about Strathclyde university here, and I don't think he donated anything to that, he 'worked' with them (whatever that means .. probably not much really, who knows) .. he didn't invent or discover anything, either (unlike in your previous hypothetical example). His work with Strathclyde is now in the past, by the looks of it, as no doubt during all this time Pistorius has been on trial, in jail, etc, they've got other people in to help them and are no doubt getting along just fine without Pistorius. They have no need for him any more, and he no longer needs to have .. or deserves to have .. his honorary degree now.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I confess, I'm missing your implication on this.

I searched "Guil" and found the Open letter to OP and then read with interest. I thought, other members would be interested too.
Nothing more to it .... :blushing: I only noted "very interesting".

 

[foxbluff]

Thinking back to Colonel Vermeulen's testimony i still find it difficult to see what the prosecution were trying to achieve, they put him up there to declare that in his opinion Pistorius was on his stumps when he used the bat but then failed to spell out whether it was possible that The bat was used on the door before the gunshot's, which seeing as they agreed he was on his prosthesis when he fired the shot's probably came across confusing.

I agree, james, it was very confusing.

BBM - Part of the confusion imo is that Nel ended up having to agree with the Defense that OP was actually on his stumps at the time he fired the shots which didn't help his case. I've copied/pasted below (BBM) from State's HoA/Closing for our review:

E. THE FACTS
43 The objective facts that are common cause are the following:
· The accused fired the shots that killed the deceased
· The deceased was shot and killed whilst in the toilet cubicle
· The deceased was shot and killed after 03:00 on the morning of 14 February 2013
· There was a good grouping of the shots in the toilet door
21 · Bullet hole “A” was the first shot fired and the deceased was close to the toilet door facing the accused when she was shot in the hip
· The deceased was fully clothed when she was shot
· The accused fired four shots
· The accused used Black Talon ammunition
· There was screaming (who screamed is, however, an aspect of contention)
· The door of the toilet cubicle was locked from the inside
· The door of the toilet cubicle was broken down with a cricket bat (Exhibit no “1”)
· The deceased’s phone was found in the bathroom (Exhibit “E” photo 104)
· The accused’s phone was found in the bathroom (Exhibit “E” photo 108 and 109)
· The accused used his other phone to make phone calls from the bedroom area and later from the kitchen area
· The accused said to people who arrived on the scene that he thought she (the deceased) was an intruder
· The accused was on his stumps when he fired the shots
· The firearm was found in the bathroom
· Mrs Van der Merwe heard a woman talking as if arguing at 01:56 on the morning of the murder
22 · During the post mortem Professor Saayman discovered that the stomach of the deceased contained approximately 200 millimeters of partially digested food residue with the appearance of primarily vegetable matter
· The hroom light was on (when exactly it was switched on is a contentious issue)
· The accused carried the deceased from the bathroom downstairs to the foyer of his house
· The accused spoke to Mr Baba on the phone

 

[cottonweaver]

:cheers:

jay Jay - that is fantastic job you did with transcribing the Batchelor interview.

I recall one other thing - when Marc mentioned STaylor he also said the same pattern happened with ex melissa rom ( it could have been her to get shot by OP.)

Can't remember whether Melissa was on the states initial witness list but what a pity they could not give this "character" evidence, it would have helped build a pattern of DV for the Judge that she would not have been able to dismiss so conveniently.

Pictures of melissa here
http://www.modelbase.co.za/portfolio_27012.html

 

[Interested Bystander]

@Interested Bystander & Errrr

The three 'shots' that the Stipps hear first must be reasonably close together. One air rifle pellet through the bedroom door, followed by some unidentified object hitting the bath and then maybe the tiles or door getting hit would be spaced apart and sound very different to each other IMO. I still favour three of the same thing (warning shots out the window, door slams in a struggle, etc.)

I don't think the bedroom door and its damage plays any part of the murder. I feel all the bangs came from the bathroom or the Stipps would not have heard them. I also think the three early sounds must have been the same as Stipp would have mentioned that he thought they had different sources and they were close together as you say. I would wager that the bedroom door was done before the day of the murder when in one of his rages. Maybe ST was asked about the door and she confirmed it was old damage and that could be the reason it was not brought up in the trial. He kept the air rifle in his bedroom and we know he had a temper and we know he drank too much. I am sure the PT would have made a great deal of this if they even half thought it was relevant. Not to ask him about the steel bath panel did, however, surprise me. I really do think he would have found that difficult to explain away. The "intruder" was hardly likely to have done it, or Reeva!!

 

[WilliamMunter]

What type of work would he do for Uncle Arnold? I do not know what businesses he is involved in.

Uncle Pistorius has a large portfolio of business interests. Maybe his nephew could host fondue parties in his ski lodge

http://www.twincity.co.za/team.html

 

[akp]

@Interested Bystander & Errrr

The three 'shots' that the Stipps hear first must be reasonably close together. One air rifle pellet through the bedroom door, followed by some unidentified object hitting the bath and then maybe the tiles or door getting hit would be spaced apart and sound very different to each other IMO. I still favour three of the same thing (warning shots out the window, door slams in a struggle, etc.)

One reason I would doubt the first three bangs that the Stipps heard were gunshots is that Reeva was standing upright behind the door when she was shot a little later. If OP had already started using his gun, it would be more natural for her to crouch and be in some corner to avoid possible gunshots. Judging by her position, she didn't expect OP to shoot her.

 

[WilliamMunter]

I don't think the bedroom door and its damage plays any part of the murder. I feel all the bangs came from the bathroom or the Stipps would not have heard them. I also think the three early sounds must have been the same as Stipp would have mentioned that he thought they had different sources and they were close together as you say. I would wager that the bedroom door was done before the murder when in one of his rages. Maybe ST was asked about the door and she confirmed it was old damage and that could be the reason it was not brought up in the trial. He kept the air rifle in his bedroom and we know he had a temper and we know he drank too much. I am sure the PT would have made a great deal of this if they even half thought it was relevant. Not to ask him about the steel bath panel did, however, surprise me. I really do think he would have found that difficult to explain away. The "intruder" was hardly likely to have done it, or Reeva!!

I'm not sure what to think about the damage to the bedroom door. However regarding the "airgun pellet hole" in it, was it ever confirmed it was a pellet hole? If it was made that night, where is the pellet?

Also I've revisited some of the evidence photos and one of the bat photographs shows similar holes. I suspect Pistorius used the bat as target practice +/- the door at some time in the past.

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/pmb-portals/behind-the-door/img/pics/SAPS_Investigate/work_4.jpg

 

[jilly]

I'm just guessing but how about the fact that Uncle Arnold hasn't been banned from having/owning guns. Can OP stay in a house that's full of firearms.

I doubt they can ban U Arnold. It will be interesting to see what Corrections does about this tho.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I'm not sure what to think about the damage to the bedroom door. However regarding the "airgun pellet hole" in it, was it ever confirmed it was a pellet hole? If it was made that night, where is the pellet?

Also I've revisited some of the evidence photos and one of the bat photographs shows similar holes. I suspect Pistorius used the bat as target practice +/- the door at some time in the past.

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/pmb-portals/behind-the-door/img/pics/SAPS_Investigate/work_4.jpg

No it was never confirmed that it was a pellet hole or that it was made that night. Hence no pellet. Not sure why you think there would be one. I did say that I thought it was done before the dreadful day in question or it would have been brought up at the trial. Someone on the forum who shoots said it looked like the size an airgun pellet would make - from memory about 4 to 5 mm or thereabouts and, of course, OP kept an air rifle right by the bedroom door. Unfortunately it was so long ago I wouldn't know where to start to look for it.

 

[jilly]

If I have the time this weekend, I will transcribe the interview!!

Big thank you! The whole time I was trying to listen, I kept wishing for subtitles!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Uncle Pistorius has a large portfolio of business interests. Maybe his nephew could host fondue parties in his ski lodge

http://www.twincity.co.za/team.html

Maybe too, he will become a PR manager? He is firm with a little black book to write down the journalist-enemies and he is good on always threatening others not to do what he doesn't want. He always is able to lie; very important for this business. When his client is attending a night bar with his murderer-friend, then OP will have no problem to tell a journalist, it would have been a nice cousin. In between this all he could play with his charm and good-looking.