Question for both IDI and RDI

Do you agree with the way LE and the DA cleared people in this case?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 2.3%
  • No

    Votes: 43 97.7%

  • Total voters
    44
  • #61
I am confused. Would you clarify your position on this? The strangulation of Joni occurred before her head was bludgeoned, and thus, the lack of visible bruising, swelling and bleeding according to Dr. Wecht. Ergo, the Ramsey's were not attempting to cover up an accident in which they wounded their daughter.

I'll try to "clarify" but I have to say I am not entirely clear on it myself. One theory I envision has the head bash happening first, either the result of a rage outburst where she was hit with something like the flashlight or an angry slamming of JB into something that punched a hole in her skull. In this case, I see an immediate collapse of JB into unconsciousness, eventually coma. To cover up this horrible event, the strangulation was staged.
BUT the other theory I have is that JB screamed, maybe as she was being molested, and the flashlight-holding perp bashed her in reaction to her scream as a way of shutting her up.
I believe the neighbor when she said she heard a child's scream. While she recanted and later said she maybe only heard "negative energy emanating from JB" (her words), later she recanted THAT and said that she did, in fact, hear a child's scream. She was so upset at being mixed up in this that she moved away from Boulder. Why the flip-flop? I don't know, but I had read where she was reluctant to say anything about that scream because she didn't want to get involved, and that she didn't call police herself that night because it was so loud that she knew the child's parents must have heard it. It's too bad she didn't. There might have been a very different outcome if police had come to the R home at midnight instead of 6 hours later.

Here's my dilemma:
The strangulation as staging only makes sense if the head bash came first.
If the head bash was in retaliation for her scream, it takes on a whole different spin. Because then, the strangulation had to be deliberate, and unless it was part of sexual molestation, I cannot fathom any other reason for it. So I am extremely vexed (I love that word) that a more definitive sequence of events that night was never discovered.

Any clearer? Or are you still as confused as I am?
 
  • #62
I'll try to "clarify" but I have to say I am not entirely clear on it myself. One theory I envision has the head bash happening first, either the result of a rage outburst where she was hit with something like the flashlight or an angry slamming of JB into something that punched a hole in her skull. In this case, I see an immediate collapse of JB into unconsciousness, eventually coma. To cover up this horrible event, the strangulation was staged.
BUT the other theory I have is that JB screamed, maybe as she was being molested, and the flashlight-holding perp bashed her in reaction to her scream as a way of shutting her up.
I believe the neighbor when she said she heard a child's scream. While she recanted and later said she maybe only heard "negative energy emanating from JB" (her words), later she recanted THAT and said that she did, in fact, hear a child's scream. She was so upset at being mixed up in this that she moved away from Boulder. Why the flip-flop? I don't know, but I had read where she was reluctant to say anything about that scream because she didn't want to get involved, and that she didn't call police herself that night because it was so loud that she knew the child's parents must have heard it. It's too bad she didn't. There might have been a very different outcome if police had come to the R home at midnight instead of 6 hours later.

Here's my dilemma:
The strangulation as staging only makes sense if the head bash came first.
If the head bash was in retaliation for her scream, it takes on a whole different spin. Because then, the strangulation had to be deliberate, and unless it was part of sexual molestation, I cannot fathom any other reason for it. So I am extremely vexed (I love that word) that a more definitive sequence of events that night was never discovered.

Any clearer? Or are you still as confused as I am?

DD I think this indicates that you are starting to re-evaluate what you have formerly defended (RDI) and that is very good. It's only when you minutely examine things that you begin to realise that things do not fit. Don't worry about being vexed, it's part of realising that RDI isn't the only explanation after all!
 
  • #63
DD I think this indicates that you are starting to re-evaluate what you have formerly defended (RDI) and that is very good. It's only when you minutely examine things that you begin to realise that things do not fit. Don't worry about being vexed, it's part of realising that RDI isn't the only explanation after all!

i've always realized that, BUT I still think the parents know what happened, and even if they themselves had nothing to do with the death of JB, they are covering for someone, and there is a very small circle of people who would warrant that. I think it would have to be another family member. While most RDI would put that flashlight in Patsy's hand, really it could have been someone else. But if it is someone else, it was another person in the house that night (and I don't mean someone who wasn't supposed to be there). I don't think it was looked at closely enough whether there was another person(s) staying there that night that we are unaware of.
And there are a lot of things that don't fit. For every train of thought I have on this case, for every theory I have considered (both RDI ad IDI) there is a place where the tracks just END on that train.
 
  • #64
We've already discussed the ways the DNA could have innocently arrived on the panties and long johns. We've also discussed how the DNA does not exclude Ramsey involvement.

Sorry, but your statement that the "BPD failed" to match PR to the ransom note is false. Just use the SEARCH function here or on Google to find QDEs who disagree with your statement.

The evidence, circumstantial and direct, suggests familial involvement of some degree. I am also sure there is evidence that has not been made public.

It is pretty amazing to me how low a profile John Ramsey keeps now that Patsy is dead. I find that interesting.
Me too. If, God forbid, something like this happened to my child or grandchildren, I would be following every avenue I could to find the killer for the rest of my days or until he/she was found.
 
  • #65
How much hell is he supposed to endure? How much physical, emotional, psychological trauma would you or I survive given the same living hell he experienced?

Bad chemistry between the two groups may have begun by little things. An innocent facial expression interpreted as a sign of impatience or anger, condescension, accusation, and never verbalized but nevertheless perceived as real and disrespectful. True for both sides in a variety of ways for a number of reasons, etc., that created insurmountable hostility and suspicion. Who knows? Just speculating.
 
  • #66
i've always realized that, BUT I still think the parents know what happened, and even if they themselves had nothing to do with the death of JB, they are covering for someone, and there is a very small circle of people who would warrant that. I think it would have to be another family member. While most RDI would put that flashlight in Patsy's hand, really it could have been someone else. But if it is someone else, it was another person in the house that night (and I don't mean someone who wasn't supposed to be there). I don't think it was looked at closely enough whether there was another person(s) staying there that night that we are unaware of.
And there are a lot of things that don't fit. For every train of thought I have on this case, for every theory I have considered (both RDI ad IDI) there is a place where the tracks just END on that train.

I understand that it's difficult to change tracks after you have been on one side for so long. You can continue to question this and that regarding RDI, trying to make it fit, but the thing I found clinched it for me was to just 'assume' that the R's were innocent. I know this sounds strange, but that then allows you to believe everything that they said, allowing for normal memory lapses natural in the aftermath of such a traumatic incident and the confrontational attitude of the BPD causing them to be extremely cautious and their lack of knowledge of what actually happened to JBR due to BPD deliberately keeping them in the dark. All the tiny things that may have appeared to indicate their guilt are easily explained, but there were other things that may have been important that were never looked into. This I think is why we are so frustrated in coming up with an IDI theory, because all the information collected was to implicate the R's.
 
  • #67
Indeed, the lack of any sort of struggle favors staging heavily. I trust you're referring to JB being alive? Doesn't matter if the person THOUGHT she was dead. Even then, you'd pull it as deep as you could to make it convincing. Norm Early pointed that out.

"Even then....you'd pull it as deep as you could to make it convincing."

Can we take a poll?
I don't know how to do it. But, if I could, I would ask this,

"Would you pull a cord around your daughter's neck, believing she might dead, to cover-up evidence you just killed her, accidentally?"
 
  • #68
I'll try to "clarify" but I have to say I am not entirely clear on it myself. One theory I envision has the head bash happening first, either the result of a rage outburst where she was hit with something like the flashlight or an angry slamming of JB into something that punched a hole in her skull. In this case, I see an immediate collapse of JB into unconsciousness, eventually coma. To cover up this horrible event, the strangulation was staged.
BUT the other theory I have is that JB screamed, maybe as she was being molested, and the flashlight-holding perp bashed her in reaction to her scream as a way of shutting her up.
I believe the neighbor when she said she heard a child's scream. While she recanted and later said she maybe only heard "negative energy emanating from JB" (her words), later she recanted THAT and said that she did, in fact, hear a child's scream. She was so upset at being mixed up in this that she moved away from Boulder. Why the flip-flop? I don't know, but I had read where she was reluctant to say anything about that scream because she didn't want to get involved, and that she didn't call police herself that night because it was so loud that she knew the child's parents must have heard it. It's too bad she didn't. There might have been a very different outcome if police had come to the R home at midnight instead of 6 hours later.

Here's my dilemma:
The strangulation as staging only makes sense if the head bash came first.
If the head bash was in retaliation for her scream, it takes on a whole different spin. Because then, the strangulation had to be deliberate, and unless it was part of sexual molestation, I cannot fathom any other reason for it. So I am extremely vexed (I love that word) that a more definitive sequence of events that night was never discovered.

Any clearer? Or are you still as confused as I am?

Well, thanks for your explanation. I appreciate it.
For me, the fiendish demon who did this didn't need a reason. He is the reason. The utter contempt for the life and the body and feelings of this baby girl, and her parents, leave no doubt whatsoever in my mind that this sick monster enjoyed torturing and killing her. This brought him intense, exquisite delight. The only factors of significance involved savoring the anguish as long as he could, to inflict pain and hurt, to destroy, to humiliate as much as possible for as long as possible.

When we wonder if evil really does exist, if there is in reality such a thing as "evil," here is proof.
 
  • #69
"Even then....you'd pull it as deep as you could to make it convincing."

Can we take a poll?
I don't know how to do it. But, if I could, I would ask this,

"Would you pull a cord around your daughter's neck, believing she might dead, to cover-up evidence you just killed your her, accidentally?"

You don't need my permission. But it's sort of a bad comparison. It's one thing to ask hypothetically if someone would do it. It's another thing to consider that, if the person has already decided to do it, it would make sense to pull it as deep as possible to make it convincing. The latter is an intellectual consideration; the former is an emotional one.
 
  • #70
i've always realized that, BUT I still think the parents know what happened, and even if they themselves had nothing to do with the death of JB, they are covering for someone, and there is a very small circle of people who would warrant that. I think it would have to be another family member. While most RDI would put that flashlight in Patsy's hand, really it could have been someone else. But if it is someone else, it was another person in the house that night (and I don't mean someone who wasn't supposed to be there). I don't think it was looked at closely enough whether there was another person(s) staying there that night that we are unaware of.
And there are a lot of things that don't fit. For every train of thought I have on this case, for every theory I have considered (both RDI ad IDI) there is a place where the tracks just END on that train.

Great stuff.
Did the sons of LHP move Christmas trees around in the Ramsey basement shortly before the murder? I'll look it up and if they had, I'll see if they were investigated.

DeeDee, can you describe what it is that creates that certainty within you that they know who was involved?
 
  • #71
Great stuff.
Did the sons of LHP move Christmas trees around in the Ramsey basement shortly before the murder? I'll look it up and if they had, I'll see if they were investigated.

I believe it was LPH's husband and son-in-law and daughter that helped.
 
  • #72
Well, thanks for your explanation. I appreciate it.
For me, the fiendish demon who did this didn't need a reason. He is the reason. The utter contempt for the life and the body and feelings of this baby girl, and her parents, leave no doubt whatsoever in my mind that this sick monster enjoyed torturing and killing her. This brought him intense, exquisite delight. The only factors of significance involved savoring the anguish as long as he could, to inflict pain and hurt, to destroy, to humiliate as much as possible for as long as possible.

When we wonder if evil really does exist, if there is in reality such a thing as "evil," here is proof.


Its nice to know there is someone else who is able to characterize this murder. This is not unlike JR's "evil beyond imagination" characterization.

This accurate characterization is half the distance to the solution. This is very much like the first step, that of admitting you have a problem (evil sinister person at large) instead of continuing year after year, denying you have a problem.

The oft-used and somewhat worn out expression 'if it walks like a duck' has no better application than right here and now.

It could be argued that evil in word and deed was the goal. Especially with the execution beheading of a small child reference. I have been unable to replicate this idea anywhere, there seems to be no precedent for it.
 
  • #73
"Would you pull a cord around your daughter's neck, believing she might dead, to cover-up evidence you just killed her, accidentally?"

No. But I might do it to cover-up evidence of my own child killing her. MIGHT. Under duress, without time to think it through.
 
  • #74
No. But I might do it to cover-up evidence of my own child killing her. MIGHT. Under duress, without time to think it through.

Why something so horrible?I am sure you might find another way!
 
  • #75
  • #76
  • #77
Great stuff.
Did the sons of LHP move Christmas trees around in the Ramsey basement shortly before the murder? I'll look it up and if they had, I'll see if they were investigated.

DeeDee, can you describe what it is that creates that certainty within you that they know who was involved?

I believe LHP said that her son-in-law??? helped. So she must have older children or stepkids.

As far as what it is that makes me feel certain the parents knew what happened that night....that is difficult to pin down to absolutes. Each of us here has a "gut feeling" about this case, and even if we have more than one theory (as I do) we still have at least some things we feel sure about. I guess, for me, it is more certain that the parents know who did this and how it happened than it is that they did it themselves. It isn't any one thing that makes me feel this way, more like lots of things that I can't explain away any other way.
For one, you have to realize that I believe Patsy wrote the note. That part is not a variable, to me. I base it on MY opinions of the handwriting samples as well as similarities in Patsy's writing style (based on what I've seen). While many IDI feel the length and rambling tones of the note indicate someone other than Patsy (or JR), I feel just the opposite. I feel the length of the note, as well as trying to cover as many "options" as they can indicate it was the parents for sure. They tried to implicate not only the stated SFF, (by outright mentioning an SFF and by threatening what would be expected behavior by a terrorist group). The note also mentions JR's bonus, and I can't see an SFF knowing about that. But by the same token, and in other statements in the note, it seems to implicate a business associate, maybe an employee with a grudge. The note has the sentence "We respect your bussiness (sic) but not the country that it serves". Yet, if you look at the note itself (and this was also pointed out by people analyzed the note) the sentence originally began with "We DON'T respect your bussiness). The word "DON'T" is scratched out. This suggests to me that they were trying not to point too closely to an employee or business associate because then they may have to point too strongly and someone who would then be cleared and sue them. But this was allegedly someone who assaulted, strangled and bludgeoned and innocent little girl. Yet the tone of the note is NOT virulent but almost sarcastically patronizing "Don't try to grow a brain, John". "It's up to you now, John".
A SFF would not write a note this way, nor would an enemy of JR or his company. Besides, the note indicated there was no hatred of his company, but respect- it is the US that they hate- so why not target someone on a more national level?
If this was a real SFF or enemy the note would read more on the line of
"We got you kid, Mother****er. -Call the cops and she dies". End of note.

There are other things, too. The pineapple has long been a sticking point with me. So was lying about JB being asleep and carried in. Why lie about either of those things? They are simple, uncomplicated activities that should have no relation to this chid being kidnapped/killed. So why the lie? Well, it puts her awake and alive VERY close to the TOD, which itself is close to the arrival of the family home. For an intruder to do this, he takes a BIG risk because there is a very good chance that the parents might not actually be asleep. The scream...the pineapple snack and the quite extensive staging, all that would have had a very small window in which to be accomplished all the while under the threat of the parents hearing and walking in on it (or BR, whose room was on the same floor as JB and closer to the kitchen, too as far as hearing anything that went on). This might have necessitated killing the whole family, and if it was an SFF or a madman intruder, why not so this anyway? If it was someone targeting JR, why not kill his son, too? If it was a pedophile, why kill her at all? Take her out of the house quickly and you can assault her over and over again. If you kill her, you dump the body and think you'll never get caught.
Then there is the behavior of the parents. I can see defense attorneys telling their clients to keep quiet. That's what they are paid to do. But these clients went on national television, yet refused police interviews for months (and years). It took Patsy FOUR tries (with her own polygrapher, not the BPD)
I look at the questions LW would NOT allow Patsy to answer. That told me more than the answers she gave. I look at what the DA would NOT provide to the investigation- the phone records, the exhumation (to check to see exactly what those parallel "abrasions" were).
I look at the squad cars Patsy's sister filled with so-called "things for the funeral" which included a golf bag???? that was right outside the wineceller door when the crime took place.
It isn't just one thing. It's all of them. They know more than we have been told.
One thing- I'd LOVE for ALL the evidence in the case to be released- autopsy photos, ALL photos of the house and the party, all the interviews, everything LE knows, I want to know. Then we'll see.
 
  • #78
  • #79
I believe LHP said that her son-in-law??? helped. So she must have older children or stepkids.

As far as what it is that makes me feel certain the parents knew what happened that night....that is difficult to pin down to absolutes. Each of us here has a "gut feeling" about this case, and even if we have more than one theory (as I do) we still have at least some things we feel sure about. I guess, for me, it is more certain that the parents know who did this and how it happened than it is that they did it themselves. It isn't any one thing that makes me feel this way, more like lots of things that I can't explain away any other way.
For one, you have to realize that I believe Patsy wrote the note. That part is not a variable, to me. I base it on MY opinions of the handwriting samples as well as similarities in Patsy's writing style (based on what I've seen). While many IDI feel the length and rambling tones of the note indicate someone other than Patsy (or JR), I feel just the opposite. I feel the length of the note, as well as trying to cover as many "options" as they can indicate it was the parents for sure. They tried to implicate not only the stated SFF, (by outright mentioning an SFF and by threatening what would be expected behavior by a terrorist group). The note also mentions JR's bonus, and I can't see an SFF knowing about that. But by the same token, and in other statements in the note, it seems to implicate a business associate, maybe an employee with a grudge. The note has the sentence "We respect your bussiness (sic) but not the country that it serves". Yet, if you look at the note itself (and this was also pointed out by people analyzed the note) the sentence originally began with "We DON'T respect your bussiness). The word "DON'T" is scratched out. This suggests to me that they were trying not to point too closely to an employee or business associate because then they may have to point too strongly and someone who would then be cleared and sue them. But this was allegedly someone who assaulted, strangled and bludgeoned and innocent little girl. Yet the tone of the note is NOT virulent but almost sarcastically patronizing "Don't try to grow a brain, John". "It's up to you now, John".
A SFF would not write a note this way, nor would an enemy of JR or his company. Besides, the note indicated there was no hatred of his company, but respect- it is the US that they hate- so why not target someone on a more national level?
If this was a real SFF or enemy the note would read more on the line of
"We got you kid, Mother****er. -Call the cops and she dies". End of note.

There are other things, too. The pineapple has long been a sticking point with me. So was lying about JB being asleep and carried in. Why lie about either of those things? They are simple, uncomplicated activities that should have no relation to this chid being kidnapped/killed. So why the lie? Well, it puts her awake and alive VERY close to the TOD, which itself is close to the arrival of the family home. For an intruder to do this, he takes a BIG risk because there is a very good chance that the parents might not actually be asleep. The scream...the pineapple snack and the quite extensive staging, all that would have had a very small window in which to be accomplished all the while under the threat of the parents hearing and walking in on it (or BR, whose room was on the same floor as JB and closer to the kitchen, too as far as hearing anything that went on). This might have necessitated killing the whole family, and if it was an SFF or a madman intruder, why not so this anyway? If it was someone targeting JR, why not kill his son, too? If it was a pedophile, why kill her at all? Take her out of the house quickly and you can assault her over and over again. If you kill her, you dump the body and think you'll never get caught.
Then there is the behavior of the parents. I can see defense attorneys telling their clients to keep quiet. That's what they are paid to do. But these clients went on national television, yet refused police interviews for months (and years). It took Patsy FOUR tries (with her own polygrapher, not the BPD)
I look at the questions LW would NOT allow Patsy to answer. That told me more than the answers she gave. I look at what the DA would NOT provide to the investigation- the phone records, the exhumation (to check to see exactly what those parallel "abrasions" were).
I look at the squad cars Patsy's sister filled with so-called "things for the funeral" which included a golf bag???? that was right outside the wineceller door when the crime took place.
It isn't just one thing. It's all of them. They know more than we have been told.
One thing- I'd LOVE for ALL the evidence in the case to be released- autopsy photos, ALL photos of the house and the party, all the interviews, everything LE knows, I want to know. Then we'll see.

Thanks. BTW, I didn't ask in order to pin you down. I really just wanted to know if there was information you were aware of, that you hadn't cited to this end, that helped you reach this conclusion.

If Pat wrote the note, she was likely in on it, no?

I find the note a bunch of b.s., written by a rabid, laughing hyena-maniac, trying to taunt the Ramseys. It was a Whiter Shade of Pale nonsensical, immature rant of a punk, a sick, sick diabolical, pathetic, squirming nobody-nothing. He killed a six year old girl and he thinks he is a big man now. In fact, he knows it. He assesses his mannishness by strangling and beating in the head of a baby because of the pain it causes others. He knows without a doubt that he is a worthless, slimy, disgusting piece of stinking garbage. He has nothing to contribute, so he relishes in the agony he inflicts on others, sits back and laughs, like he's a big man.

His time will come, soon. Remember, Nothing, your end is near. HAHAHA! to you, you little pipsqueak. We're comin' to getchya.
 
  • #80

I've seen that many times. What does that have to do with Patsy's sister being allowed to go into the house unsupervised (the cops waited outside) wearing a police jacket (so as not to "attract attention") and remove large quantities of items from the house (which were not searched)?

That page lists items removed by LE with search warrants. BTW, there was more than one golf bag, and JR asked Aunt P "did you remember to get my golf bag?"
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
153
Guests online
1,358
Total visitors
1,511

Forum statistics

Threads
632,443
Messages
18,626,589
Members
243,152
Latest member
almost_amber
Back
Top