Question for both IDI and RDI

[Holdontoyourhat]

Well, JR reportedly asked her "did you get my golf bag"? He had made a point of asking for it. Obviously I wasn't there to see her take it and she wasn't required to tell LE what she took. If she did, I haven't seen any evidence of it.
We also don't know JR's motivation for asking for the golf bag, because we are not privy to his personal conversation with his sister-in-law. But as with much of this case, we can speculate. Had he wanted several incriminating items brought out of the house before LE found them, of course he could have asked PP to stuff whatever he wanted into the bag.
JR was heading to Atlanta for JB's funeral. While the January weather was more favorable for golf in Atlanta than in Boulder, I would think he'd have had other things on his mind (like his daughter's funeral and helping local LE finding her killer).
Asking for the golf bag at such a time does look bad, regardless of his reasons, and frankly, I can't think of a reason for him to have asked for it that isn't suspicious to me.

How do you know it didn't contain any golf clubs? Based on that photo, you can't see the whole top of the bag. Clubs can be seen in the more obvious bag, but that doesn't mean there were not other clubs available.

Such as?

 

[UKGuy]

PP being privy to this information helps me believe that PR (or BR) was VERY involved as I don't believe that she would be of a mind to cover for JR alone.

joeskidbeck,

I'm sure you are correct, who knows it may have been Patsy who deposited evidence into the golf-bag.

Can you see the extended Ramsey family suffering in silence, never asking PP, what did you find, what happened to it etc.

It could even be, as mentioned before, that the extended Ramsey family has some skeletons hidden away in cupboard, that they would prefer kept there e.g. the genesis for Patsy's obsession to promote JonBenet as a child model exploiting adult sexual themes?


.

 

[joeskidbeck]

joeskidbeck,

I'm sure you are correct, who knows it may have been Patsy who deposited evidence into the golf-bag.

Can you see the extended Ramsey family suffering in silence, never asking PP, what did you find, what happened to it etc.

It could even be, as mentioned before, that the extended Ramsey family has some skeletons hidden away in cupboard, that they would prefer kept there e.g. the genesis for Patsy's obsession to promote JonBenet as a child model exploiting adult sexual themes?


.

BBM

I think this is exactly right. As I've been told many times by a friend who is in NA "secrets hurt". I'm sure there are many secrets in all families, but I believe there were some serious secrets in this one. If it's true that JB was molested previously, I would like to know who that person was. There was behavior that pointed to it from JB herself. I will never forget reading about her sitting on the stairs during the Christmas party saying "I don't feel pretty". The toileting issues are a huge red flag. That's not just my opinion, but facts gleaned from child psychologists after many years of study. It's my opinion that the Ramsey/Paugh families were very good at keeping secrets and there very well may have been several of them that felt at least partially responsible for what happened to JB.
MOO

 

[madeleine]

Re PP removing evidence.I don't think that happened,I mean would YOU trust her with any of your secrets?
I'd rather believe it was Archuleta who helped JR,remember that rumour re JR giving him a box that morning?
And IIRC there was an article saying he and his wife kinda grew apart because of this case and Mike supporting JR.
What about all those calls,JR called many times that morning.
If RDI ,IMO Mike knows something.

 

[DeeDee249]

Such as?

Keep in mind LE did not do a very thorough search at first; they wanted to pull off that crime scene tape and release the house within hours of JB being found. It was only after strong disagreement did they agree to keep the house longer.
The roll of tape, remaining cord (if any) and original panties could all have been easily put in a golf bag, and just as easily missed by LE if they didn't actually look in the golf bag.

 

[DeeDee249]

Re PP removing evidence.I don't think that happened,I mean would YOU trust her with any of your secrets?
I'd rather believe it was Archuleta who helped JR,remember that rumour re JR giving him a box that morning?
And IIRC there was an article saying he and his wife kinda grew apart because of this case and Mike supporting JR.
What about all those calls,JR called many times that morning.
If RDI ,IMO Mike knows something.

I am sure Patsy trusted her sister. Had they asked her to remove items I have no doubt she would have. I also had read about the pilot being given a box. We just don't know if that really happened. Remember, NO ONE was questioned under oath. But in the absence of phone records, we just don't know when JR may have called Mike and how many calls were places. The WHEN is very important.

 

[madeleine]

I am sure Patsy trusted her sister. Had they asked her to remove items I have no doubt she would have.

Patsy probably,but John?I doubt it.I guess a businessman like him knows to trust his OWN people,especially in crisis situations.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Keep in mind LE did not do a very thorough search at first; they wanted to pull off that crime scene tape and release the house within hours of JB being found. It was only after strong disagreement did they agree to keep the house longer.
The roll of tape, remaining cord (if any) and original panties could all have been easily put in a golf bag, and just as easily missed by LE if they didn't actually look in the golf bag.

Its nice to know that you concur that there are some things missing from the crime scene. Some things sought after but never found. You've left out the blunt instrument (or not so blunt).

Things would tend to be missing, or foreign things found, if an intruder were involved. The foreign things are the ransom note handwriting, linguistics, cord, tape, and unknown male DNA. The missing things are the cord roll, tape roll, person who owns the handwriting, person who owns the DNA, and blunt instrument. You're also missing a motive.

As you can plainly see, there is no shortage of intruder evidence. Simply saying there's no intruder evidence doesn't make it go away.

 

[MurriFlower]

Keep in mind LE did not do a very thorough search at first; they wanted to pull off that crime scene tape and release the house within hours of JB being found. It was only after strong disagreement did they agree to keep the house longer.
The roll of tape, remaining cord (if any) and original panties could all have been easily put in a golf bag, and just as easily missed by LE if they didn't actually look in the golf bag.

I really thought you may have given up on the golf bag story, which you CLAIM someone overheard JR asking PP. Now, if you can come up with the person who heard this and confirm that she actually took the golf bag, then we can address the business about IF PP may have picked up some evidence that the cops did not see to smuggle out in the golf bag, and if that something had any bearing on the death of JBR.

Can you do this DD?

I really think this is just scuttlebutt!

 

[madeleine]

IIRC the police gave PP a LE jacket so that she wouldn't be recognized by the media.
THEY let her in!
And then they scream she removed evidence?LMAO.Hilarious.Again.
How can you even leave incriminating evidence there in the first place,if they did it they had plenty of time to remove it before calling LE.
JR and his golf bags,must have been if true a male ego thing,it's like a woman would say,hey bring me my 5.000$ purse,I need it and can't leave it behind.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Its nice to know that you concur that there are some things missing from the crime scene. Some things sought after but never found. You've left out the blunt instrument (or not so blunt).

Things would tend to be missing, or foreign things found, if an intruder were involved. The foreign things are the ransom note handwriting, linguistics, cord, tape, and unknown male DNA. The missing things are the cord roll, tape roll, person who owns the handwriting, person who owns the DNA, and blunt instrument. You're also missing a motive.

As you can plainly see, there is no shortage of intruder evidence. Simply saying there's no intruder evidence doesn't make it go away.

Absence of evidence, isn't really evidence at all. Any one of them could have simply walked down the street and placed the missing stuff in a storm drain, in a neighbor's trash, or just stuffed it in a golf bag.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

1. Absence of evidence, isn't really evidence at all. Any one of them could have simply walked down the street and placed the missing stuff in a storm drain, in a neighbor's trash, or just stuffed it in a golf bag.

I prefer to go by the standard definition for evidence instead of your rather limited definition.

ev·i·dence

   /ˈɛv

ɪ

dəns/ Show Spelled [ev-i-duh

ns] Show IPA noun, verb, -denced, -denc·ing.
–noun 1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.

2. something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign: His flushed look was visible evidence of his fever.

3. Law . data presented to a court or jury in proof of the facts in issue and which may include the testimony of witnesses, records, documents, or objects.




---------------------------------------------


I believe a foreign faction intruder killed JBR. The following are signs/indications/things that provide my ground for this belief:

1. I recognize the expressions in the ransom note as peculiar to socialism, not journalism, business, or religion.
2. The R's represent the ideological opposite of socialism.
3. Unknown male DNA is being found in places that relate to the crime that happened.
4. The cord and tape rolls are both missing.
5. Neither the cord nor the tape have ever been shown to be owned by the R's.
6. The object which hit JBR in the head is missing.
7. The autopsy report indicates brutal violence beyond the scope of parental rage or unplanned accident.
8. The breaking of the paintbrush, tieing of the cord, and expressions in the ransom note show a real violent intent directed at a child, beyond the scope of staging.
9. RDI has never proven beyond some doubt even one of the many many things that they claimed happened, despite having the majority of the investigative dollar.
10. There are no local suspects here in 2010 despite the fact that LE has had DNA and handwriting with which to compare rapidly to many people for many years.
11. Nobody has come forward e.g. Unabomber.

This list goes on and on.

 

[DeeDee249]

I really thought you may have given up on the golf bag story, which you CLAIM someone overheard JR asking PP. Now, if you can come up with the person who heard this and confirm that she actually took the golf bag, then we can address the business about IF PP may have picked up some evidence that the cops did not see to smuggle out in the golf bag, and if that something had any bearing on the death of JBR.

Can you do this DD?

I really think this is just scuttlebutt!

I don't see why I need to "give up" on any of my theories or thoughts on the case, do you? I am sure you are holding fast to a few of yours. I'll "give up" when the case is solved, at which time I will either be right or wrong. And it won't matter to me which it is.
Like so much in this case, it is out there in cyberspace somewhere. Scuttlebutt or not, it was out there. Since we have no eyewitness (including the police, who allegedly waited outside the house), we'd have only PP's word. I don't know why you seem to be "annoyed" about the golf bag. There were two in the photo just outside the winesceller door. One is listed as being taken into evidence by LE. So there certainly was one left available for PP to remove if she wanted to. And frankly, those items (panties, tape roll, cord) were small- they'd have fit in pretty much anything, including a handbag, or could have been hidden among the clothing PP was asked to get.

 

[DeeDee249]

Its nice to know that you concur that there are some things missing from the crime scene. Some things sought after but never found. You've left out the blunt instrument (or not so blunt).

Things would tend to be missing, or foreign things found, if an intruder were involved. The foreign things are the ransom note handwriting, linguistics, cord, tape, and unknown male DNA. The missing things are the cord roll, tape roll, person who owns the handwriting, person who owns the DNA, and blunt instrument. You're also missing a motive.

As you can plainly see, there is no shortage of intruder evidence. Simply saying there's no intruder evidence doesn't make it go away.

Doesn't need to be a motive. Plenty of murders are committed without one. If is was a rage attack or she was bashed to shut her up, that isn't really a motive per se, but a violent reaction to a trigger (JB screaming, etc.)
I don't consider the RN foreign, because both the paper and pen were sourced to the house. A planned kidnapping, especially one that was going to be done when the entire family was home, would not have relied on the availability of something to write the RN with right there.
I also source the handwriting and linguistics to Patsy. You don't. Simple. I am probably never changing my mind about the RN, and you probably won't either, so it doesn't need to be discussed again with me.
I feel the flashlight was the bludgeon. It was left behind because it had been wiped down, inside and out, and was assumed safe to leave as it couldn't be linked to the crime. That was correct, too, because it has NOT been able to be identified as the weapon. Some forensic specialists also feel it was, but LE has not been able to establish that.
I wonder why Mayer wasn't given that flashlight to see if he could tell if it caused the displaced skull fracture? I am sure that kind of thing is done, and it would have helped put one more piece in the puzzle.
Way to go, LE.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Doesn't need to be a motive. Plenty of murders are committed without one. If is was a rage attack or she was bashed to shut her up, that isn't really a motive per se, but a violent reaction to a trigger (JB screaming, etc.)
I don't consider the RN foreign, because both the paper and pen were sourced to the house. A planned kidnapping, especially one that was going to be done when the entire family was home, would not have relied on the availability of something to write the RN with right there. You're kidding, right? Everybody has pen and paper. Not everybody has cord and black tape, though (hint hint).
I also source the handwriting and linguistics to Patsy. You don't. Simple. I am probably never changing my mind about the RN, and you probably won't either, so it doesn't need to be discussed again with me.
I feel the flashlight was the bludgeon. It was left behind because it had been wiped down, inside and out, and was assumed safe to leave as it couldn't be linked to the crime. That was correct, too, because it has NOT been able to be identified as the weapon. Some forensic specialists also feel it was, but LE has not been able to establish that.
I wonder why Mayer wasn't given that flashlight to see if he could tell if it caused the displaced skull fracture? I am sure that kind of thing is done, and it would have helped put one more piece in the puzzle.
Way to go, LE.

Sourcing the handwriting and linguistics to PR or to anybody else is something you seem to need to justify doing for some reason. What you might not realize is that the logic and rationale behind your choice isn't vague. Instead its painfully obvious, and thats why lynch mobs happen.

And here's yet another word misconstrued: motive.

Nobody gets out of bed without a motive. Nobody lifts their arm without a motive. Its like a motivation to do something. The statement 'murder without motive' isn't sensible. Perhaps you mean to say that there was motive was to coverup, to stage, but never a motive to kill?

Do you believe there was no murder? That JBR was not really murdered?

 

[madeleine]

Doesn't need to be a motive. Plenty of murders are committed without one. If is was a rage attack or she was bashed to shut her up, that isn't really a motive per se, but a violent reaction to a trigger (JB screaming, etc.)
I don't consider the RN foreign, because both the paper and pen were sourced to the house. A planned kidnapping, especially one that was going to be done when the entire family was home, would not have relied on the availability of something to write the RN with right there.
I also source the handwriting and linguistics to Patsy. You don't. Simple. I am probably never changing my mind about the RN, and you probably won't either, so it doesn't need to be discussed again with me.
I feel the flashlight was the bludgeon. It was left behind because it had been wiped down, inside and out, and was assumed safe to leave as it couldn't be linked to the crime. That was correct, too, because it has NOT been able to be identified as the weapon. Some forensic specialists also feel it was, but LE has not been able to establish that.
I wonder why Mayer wasn't given that flashlight to see if he could tell if it caused the displaced skull fracture? I am sure that kind of thing is done, and it would have helped put one more piece in the puzzle.
Way to go, LE.

I guess because of Meyer's COD ,even IF you could tell for sure that she was bashed with the flaslight,can you call it the murder weapon?Even IF you could tell for sure that she was strangled with the garrote,can you call it the murder weapon?
IMO no ,because of his COD .We don't know which came first.
Yep we can have opinions like I for example think she was strangled first and you think the head bash came first.
Which is the murder weapon,the one that finished her off?
Ugh,I hate this guy.

 

[BBB167893]

joeskidbeck,

I'm sure you are correct, who knows it may have been Patsy who deposited evidence into the golf-bag.

Can you see the extended Ramsey family suffering in silence, never asking PP, what did you find, what happened to it etc.

It could even be, as mentioned before, that the extended Ramsey family has some skeletons hidden away in cupboard, that they would prefer kept there e.g. the genesis for Patsy's obsession to promote JonBenet as a child model exploiting adult sexual themes?

You interest me, UKGuy. Go on.

 

[BBB167893]

IIRC the police gave PP a LE jacket so that she wouldn't be recognized by the media.
THEY let her in!
And then they scream she removed evidence?LMAO.Hilarious.Again.
How can you even leave incriminating evidence there in the first place,if they did it they had plenty of time to remove it before calling LE.
JR and his golf bags,must have been if true a male ego thing,it's like a woman would say,hey bring me my 5.000$ purse,I need it and can't leave it behind.

Excellent points.

 

[MurriFlower]

I don't see why I need to "give up" on any of my theories or thoughts on the case, do you? I am sure you are holding fast to a few of yours. I'll "give up" when the case is solved, at which time I will either be right or wrong. And it won't matter to me which it is.
Like so much in this case, it is out there in cyberspace somewhere. Scuttlebutt or not, it was out there. Since we have no eyewitness (including the police, who allegedly waited outside the house), we'd have only PP's word. I don't know why you seem to be "annoyed" about the golf bag. There were two in the photo just outside the winesceller door. One is listed as being taken into evidence by LE. So there certainly was one left available for PP to remove if she wanted to. And frankly, those items (panties, tape roll, cord) were small- they'd have fit in pretty much anything, including a handbag, or could have been hidden among the clothing PP was asked to get.

DD, you are the only person who maintains that PP took incriminating evidence out in the golf bag. You back it up by relaying a third hand conversation that 'someone' overheard JR ask PP to get his golf bag. You have never sourced the comment and I have not found anywhere else it was suggested, let alone a credible source.

Frankly, I believe you invented PP taking the golf bag as a way to explain the missing evidence and therefore not contradict your RDI theory!

It is plain to anyone who wants to see, that items were brought in and taken out of the house.

Making up a story that this was done by someone associated to the Rs (PP) with the assistance of the Cops (who lent her a Police jacket and looked the other way while she did it) and was contained in a golf bag (big enough to take away anything your imagination can conjur) might satisify your ideas that one or all of the Rs were involved, but it has no basis in fact.

By continually repeating it, somehow it has gained a kind of validity. New posters read it and believe it.

This is why it makes me angry. You can believe whatever you like, but please don't present fiction as fact. If you preface what you say with "I believe" or "I think" or "perhaps", I would have no problem.

If you DO have source or evidence, please 'show and tell'.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

DD, you are the only person who maintains that PP took incriminating evidence out in the golf bag. You back it up by relaying a third hand conversation that 'someone' overheard JR ask PP to get his golf bag. You have never sourced the comment and I have not found anywhere else it was suggested, let alone a credible source.

Frankly, I believe you invented PP taking the golf bag as a way to explain the missing evidence and therefore not contradict your RDI theory!

It is plain to anyone who wants to see, that items were brought in and taken out of the house.

Making up a story that this was done by someone associated to the Rs (PP) with the assistance of the Cops (who lent her a Police jacket and looked the other way while she did it) and was contained in a golf bag (big enough to take away anything your imagination can conjur) might satisify your ideas that one or all of the Rs were involved, but it has no basis in fact.

By continually repeating it, somehow it has gained a kind of validity. New posters read it and believe it.

This is why it makes me angry. You can believe whatever you like, but please don't present fiction as fact. If you preface what you say with "I believe" or "I think" or "perhaps", I would have no problem.

If you DO have source or evidence, please 'show and tell'.

It IS a propaganda machine. Fortunately a very small one.