Racial disparity in Katrina insurance disuptes - but where is the fault?

[Details]

Perhaps, taking a less paranoid approach may work better toward solving the problems of discussing racial disparity in our country.

Perhaps - but in discussing this, I've heard a lot that leaves me a bit paranoid too. Like that when a white woman fiddles with her hair or throws it over her shoulder (long straight hair), that's a racist insult to curly haired black women who can't do that. Apparently, according to this educated and erudite poster (not sarcastic), we're being racist by moving our hair around.

And - it's not paranoia if they're out to get you. In the discussion you responded to, a poster had made a general point about Americans in general, and someone responded as if they had been talking only about white people. There are problems discussing this issue, a lot of people make a ton of assumptions about what you believe based on the color of your skin, and a very little bit of information about what you are posting. White, and not all over the idea of unlimited reparations and guilt and affirmitive action and such - you're often subtly and explicitly and profanely considered a complete racist.

 

[Details]

I for one am not arguing that anyone needs to feel "guilt" for the sins of past generations. I'm not big on guilt as a productive emotion and, personally, I refuse to feel guilty for things I didn't do myself.

But equity is another matter and achieving equity sometimes involves more than just saying, "OK, we're not going to keep you as slaves any more" or "The money's there whether or not you know how to get it." (I'm just illustrating my point here, Karole, not accusing you of making either remark.)

As for whether we are "notoriously giving," I believe you'll find we actually give less relative to our wealth than many other industrial countries.

But the particular study that inspired this thread shows that in this case, we needed to give "smarter" not more.

Completely agree on all points.

My perspective is that we've done a ton of work towards equity, and we're hitting that point, or well past that point where there should be less handholding and treating people as past slaves who now need a ton of help, and more ensuring everyone is treated equally, a touch of affirmative action, and a bit of tough love and saying, "OK, we've helped you out, we're continuing to do so and to make sure you're treated fairly - but it's time for you to take some steps on your own - we aren't responsible for your choices."

 

[Details]

I...Go to any college campus and watch the wealthy young people rallying around Che Guevera signs, they have no idea what he did or even stood for. They just know him to be a status symbol for the poor and "underprivileged". I won't even get started on my feelings for the word above in quotes. .....

Just a note on this one bit - go to any college campus, and you'll see the extremes in everything - from the Young Republicans, the YAF, to religious cults, to Che Guevera, to anarchists to greens, etc. It's a part of college - you think you have the answers to the problems of the world, and see things in black and white.

Then you graduate, try your beliefs in the real world and.... uh-oh! :doh:

 

[Details]

BTW: I have to agree - we're having a very good discussion here - this is tough and fairly rare to get! Thanks everyone!

 

[Karole28]

Just a note on this one bit - go to any college campus, and you'll see the extremes in everything - from the Young Republicans, the YAF, to religious cults, to Che Guevera, to anarchists to greens, etc. It's a part of college - you think you have the answers to the problems of the world, and see things in black and white.

Then you graduate, try your beliefs in the real world and.... uh-oh! :doh:

Oh yeah. Definitely on all points you've made, I agree. However, I do believe (until they turn into mortgage/tax payers) there is a degree of "pay back what you owe" into this thinking. It's been around certainly since the '60s'.

It's partially "fighting establishment/the man", and it's partially "who are we to have it so good, when other's have so little", thinking. And, it smacks of socialism to me, and probably is, in it's finest points.


We teach kindergartner's that nothing belongs to them in the classroom. Everything is shared. Everything is community property. I'm wondering what that really says to a child.

 

[windovervocalcords]

Perhaps - but in discussing this, I've heard a lot that leaves me a bit paranoid too. Like that when a white woman fiddles with her hair or throws it over her shoulder (long straight hair), that's a racist insult to curly haired black women who can't do that. Apparently, according to this educated and erudite poster (not sarcastic), we're being racist by moving our hair around.

And - it's not paranoia if they're out to get you. In the discussion you responded to, a poster had made a general point about Americans in general, and someone responded as if they had been talking only about white people. There are problems discussing this issue, a lot of people make a ton of assumptions about what you believe based on the color of your skin, and a very little bit of information about what you are posting. White, and not all over the idea of unlimited reparations and guilt and affirmitive action and such - you're often subtly and explicitly and profanely considered a complete racist.

You make a number of good points in your post.

Some people still do require some kindness and handholding. What's wrong with that?

There is a culture of hopelessness in the long term poor and a lack of confidence in a fair shake by some people of color even now.

I agree we can make a ton of assumptions not based on accurate information. The truth is that white folks have battled the insurance companies more effectively with regard to Katrina. Why is that?

And who is "out to get you?"

 

[Details]

People who would rather be able to call others racist, than really look at what the problems are. Some of them because playing off of other's guilt gets them things, some because they want to appear superior and enlightened by showing how not racist they are and how low and racist you are. That's who is out to get you in this type of discussion. We seem to have a remarkable scarcity of them - but they do exist, and in worse/broader forums than this one, they dominate racial discussions.

 

[Details]

You make a number of good points in your post.

Some people still do require some kindness and handholding. What's wrong with that?

Have you read the addict thread much? It's kinda like that. People can get addicted to the kindness and handholding, and never learn to stand on their own two feet. My baby would be carried everywhere by her choice, and if I start doing that, I encourage her to continue in that. If you give a family unlimited welfare - how much before they lose all interest in working? I know of a family exactly like that - some fully qualified mechanics who work only once in awhile to get the welfare and unemployment benefits started back up (a few years ago - hopefully the welfare reforms passed some time back have substantially changed their lifestyle) - it was their culture - that's how their parents lived, that's how they lived (they were white - but part of that poverty/welfare/entitlement/criminal culture that I think is the real problem here - not race, but the culture created partly by racism, partly by poverty).

There is a culture of hopelessness in the long term poor and a lack of confidence in a fair shake by some people of color even now.

But how does it get fixed? By more handholding? Or - try something different - tough love. You know that definition of insanity?

I agree we can make a ton of assumptions not based on accurate information. The truth is that white folks have battled the insurance companies more effectively with regard to Katrina. Why is that?

They didn't. Everyone who battled, won equally, did so with the same effectiveness. Read the article - the insurance company stonewalled two different claimants. One persisted, even with a seeming brick wall of, "No, that's what your claim is worth" - one gave up.

 

[windovervocalcords]

People who would rather be able to call others racist, than really look at what the problems are. Some of them because playing off of other's guilt gets them things, some because they want to appear superior and enlightened by showing how not racist they are and how low and racist you are. That's who is out to get you in this type of discussion. We seem to have a remarkable scarcity of them - but they do exist, and in worse/broader forums than this one, they dominate racial discussions.

What posts make you feel that way? I'm not aware of any that have called a poster a racist.

I think its safe to say we all have biases. To know what your biases are and to "own them" is progress, more or less, in my book.

I sure don't feel superior to anyone here. I know my own mind too well.

 

[reb]

czechmate- thank you. i lived as a minority in a majority-black city, and believe me, that experience will change any bleeding-heart liberal into a realist. everyone wants to coddle a group of people and sing their praises, until they have to live among them. and the things i say are no different than what is said by intelligent, 'old school' blacks- the ones who lived through the civil rights movement. remember when bill cosby spoke out a few years back, and how brave that was to critize his own race? blacks don't like to see their own say anything bad about them, so that was quite blasphemous, and you could hear the nation gasp. but it was the truth!! and why was he not allowed to say the truth?? and why should i not be able to also?? i treat people as equals and speak to them- and about them- honestly. walking on eggshells and coddling people has gotten this country nowhere- and now the young blacks have grown up with a distorted and dangerous sense of entitlement where everyone has to bow to them but the same rules don't apply to them. i have seen far more racism, prejudice, bias, and sheer outright rudeness living in a majority black city, against whites and other races, than i have ever seen in my entire life against anyone else. they would act however they wished and then cry racism to get anything they wanted. so i have no patience for it anymore. they have affirmative action where they don't even have to be qualified for a job, the govt has given them a free ride for years, and most have squandered it away only to want more, more, more. what more do they want? and some point you have to grow up and smell the coffee, join the human race.

as for the katrina insurance claim issue issue.. if there's any truth to it at all, i would guess that it's more about financial status than race... that's usually the case, as the wealthy always have more power.

 

[windovervocalcords]

Have you read the addict thread much? It's kinda like that. People can get addicted to the kindness and handholding, and never learn to stand on their own two feet. My baby would be carried everywhere by her choice, and if I start doing that, I encourage her to continue in that. If you give a family unlimited welfare - how much before they lose all interest in working? I know of a family exactly like that - some fully qualified mechanics who work only once in awhile to get the welfare and unemployment benefits started back up (a few years ago - hopefully the welfare reforms passed some time back have substantially changed their lifestyle) - it was their culture - that's how their parents lived, that's how they lived (they were white - but part of that poverty/welfare/entitlement/criminal culture that I think is the real problem here - not race, but the culture created partly by racism, partly by poverty). But how does it get fixed? By more handholding? Or - try something different - tough love. You know that definition of insanity?They didn't. Everyone who battled, won equally, did so with the same effectiveness. Read the article - the insurance company stonewalled two different claimants. One persisted, even with a seeming brick wall of, "No, that's what your claim is worth" - one gave up.

What I mean is we can approach someone in kindness or negative judgment. Even the person who needs a swift "kick in the patooie", could be "kicked" with a motivation of kindness and a light, open heart.

 

[Nova]

Great points all over this thread. I'm sorry I don't have time to reply to each one.

Details, I think you and I do agree on a lot of this. What I was trying to say is let's not be too impatient with people who don't seem to help themselves well. There may be perfectly good reasons (from their experience) why they believe as they do.

It occurs to me that the so-called Republican Revolution ("Contract with America") of 1994 was motivated in large part because middle-class people (predominantly white) believed they were not getting a fair shake from their government. (Even though they were paying lower taxes than people in any other developed nation.)

Now if folks who had never been enslaved, never disenfranchised, never kept down by Jim Crow laws thought the government was unavailable and unfair to them, we shouldn't be surprised if some blacks feel the same.

 

[BhamMama]

Yeah, cause poor people don't have families who have televisions sets or radios.

Those are reserved for the large white well off families.


You guys do understand that hundreds of (to quote Wolf Blitzer) the "so poor and so black" people left NO after the hurricane, realized they had it better wherever they were transplanted and never went back. Right?


What are the statistics for neighboring states and counties?

Yes, they have stayed away, last numbers state only 250,000 people have come back. Big difference in before and after numbers.

Didn't they play ads in other cities? I know in Birmingham they had talk shows and radio air time. Surely they did the same in higher concentrated areas like Houston?

 

[Karole28]

Yes, they have stayed away, last numbers state only 250,000 people have come back. Big difference in before and after numbers.

Didn't they play ads in other cities? I know in Birmingham they had talk shows and radio air time. Surely they did the same in higher concentrated areas like Houston?

The infrastructure of N.O. sucked so badly for so long, I think people just assumed that it's like that everywhere.

This has to be a wake up call for the local govt, there.

I hope, anyway.

 

[BhamMama]

Several post have stated the weathly this, and the wealthy that, it's not about how much wealth they had. It's about how much education they had. I, for one, didn't know you could fight back either until a few years ago.

The people in the Northshore area have no more wealth than many whites or many blacks that lived on the Westbank or New Orleans. But they were not about to except 30,000 on a house that had damage to the tune of 150,000 when they paid their dues. So how did they know? Education started when they had town hall meetings and they were told by someone who knew, that's how. So they got more money because they fought, not because they were better than anyone else. Many blacks also fought back, esp the ones with businesses to protect.

Details has it right, we have to teach it different if some are not getting it. I learned you could fight back from a nurse, not a radio ad, not a political ad, not my family. So how do we start to teach that you are equal, but some things have to be fought for, not expected to be handed to you?

 

[BhamMama]

The infrastructure of N.O. sucked so badly for so long, I think people just assumed that it's like that everywhere.

This has to be a wake up call for the local govt, there.

I hope, anyway.

I'm hoping too.

My cousin said if it hadn't been so crowded where she went, she'd stay. Said she had no clue that things could be run so smoothly with no headlines about political dealings all the time. Or just accepting it was that way and going on.

Here's hoping that something new is reborn right along with the city.

 

[Details]

I wouldn't know you could fight back, and probably wouldn't fight back - except that my mom works for a state insurance company. Knowing that the government would help you - I wouldn't know that either. I'd be pissed, make a bunch of phone calls - and figure they just weren't going to budge, and give up.


But I'd definitely take the gov't help - with all my posessions gone, and that kind of money at stake - I'd take anyone's help! I'd find out if there was a program even if I weren't told about it, and make use of it.

 

[Details]

I'm hoping too.

My cousin said if it hadn't been so crowded where she went, she'd stay. Said she had no clue that things could be run so smoothly with no headlines about political dealings all the time. Or just accepting it was that way and going on.

Here's hoping that something new is reborn right along with the city.

I really think NO had become something very bad - and it had been that way for so long that the stable middle class base - the good people who just do their jobs - they left, leaving the poor who couldn't leave, the corrupt and criminals who liked it that way, and the musicians and tourist places who made their living from Mardi Gras. Sending everyone out of the city, and a lot of them staying away - well, hard to tell if it'll work, but something has to dilute that concentration of criminals and corrupt that had gotten so high in that city.

Unfortunately, what may happen is that this may just be a free ride out of the lousy city for the poor who don't like being around the criminal element, and it may be reborn even more corrupt and criminal.

 

[angelmom]

I have read this whole thread with interest, agreeing with various points and raising my eyebrows at others, but I think most of us can see all sides of this.

It brought to mind an interesting story that messes up all of the racial/SES theories though.

About 10 years ago when Hurricane Opal came through, our basement was flooded. The situation was similar throughout our neighborhood and the metro area. Since we don't normally get hurricane damage (at least not flooding), most of us were shocked to find out that we didn't have any flood insurance, couldn't get it if we wanted it, and that we were just out the money we paid for repairs.

Now I was mad because we had just painted and put in carpet in the basement for our then 2 year old and infant to have a playroom. I mean, literally 2 weeks before! And now it was all ruined and there was mold! It was all over the news that a huge chunk of GA had been declared a disaster area, and if you had damage to call GEMA.

So I called. I didn't tell my husband because I didn't want to get his hopes up and also he has a major thing about accepting money from the government. The inspector came out, looked at the area, took copies of the receipts, and told me they'd be in touch. Whatever. I never thought anything would come of it. A few days later I got a check for $1200 from GEMA. It didn't cover everything, but it sure did help.

My husband was suspicious. He was sure we'd have to pay it back (probably at an exorbitant rate of interest.) My neighbors didn't believe it - too good to be true. My in-laws thought if I cashed it, I was accepting some contract or conditions. I don't know anyone else who filed a claim in my whole white, upper-middle class circle of friends. Everyone else bit the bullet and paid.

So what is the difference between me and them? We are all from very similar racial, social, and economic backgrounds. They were distrustful of the government, while I figured there was no harm in asking. Is there something wrong in the fact that only I got this money? Did the government do anything wrong? When does it become at least partially the responsibility of the victims to seek help?

I'm not saying I know the answer to this question. I just thought it was an interesting story in light of this thread.

 

[Details]

Very much so - thanks for sharing it.