Ransom Note and Common Sense

[joeskidbeck]

Oops! I think the quotes are messed up again. I was quoting Ames with that last post and it is showing eleven's comment. Either way, Ya'll know what i meant.

 

[DeeDee249]

Regardless, it doesn't strike me (and obviously not LE, either) odd or even a bit strange that a shoeprint of someone who lived in the house every single day was "close" to where the body was found. Shoot, it could have been 1/4 of a milimeter away from the body and it still doesn't amount to a hill of beans when the print supposedly belonged to a child living in the house every single day.

I will add, that although we have heard about this "Hi-Tec" shoeprint and the fact that Burke also owned a pair, it has never been documented anywhere, or even stated, that the shoeprint was the same size as Burke's foot, or the same size of any 9 year old boy. (Correct me if I am wrong). If it was, I have no doubt THAT info would have been leaked when the actual brand of the >insignificant< shoeprint was.

No it isn't odd the print was there UNLESS you consider that the door to that room had a latch up high on the frame specifically to prevent the children from playing in there, according to JR himself. Or unless you consider that the Rs lied about BR owning the Hi-Tecs when he himself said that he did.
Shoe/footprints are like fingerprints in that they can't be "dated" linked to a specific day or time other than circumstantially. For example, if the print belonged to someone who did not live there but was know to be there on the day a crime took place and the print was found in the vicinity of the crime then it would be circumstantial evidence.
Many kids of that age DO wear an adult's shoe size especially boys. My 10-year old nephew wears a men's size 11 shoe.

 

[DeeDee249]

but JR did go and get the ransom money......
I am not sure if I wouldve called the police much less a bunch of friends to come oover. I think I wouldve listened to the instructions in the RN.
I would hope that as long as I could get the money to them they would turn oer my daughter.

Ive never been in such a situation but I think Id be terrified and just get the money to them, which in the note, seems to want. JMO
Werent :they: supposed to call between 8-10AM with instructions to where to send it?

And I think I would go around the house to see where they had gotten in to get JBR. Even if they didnt turn house alarm on, didnt they at least lock their doors at night?
None of it mkes sense.:banghead:

JR did NOT leave the house that morning. I do not think he went to go get the ransom money. Do you have a link indicating he went to the bank?
The "kidnappers" were supposed to call- they never did. No surprise there- there were no kidnappers.

 

[SunnieRN]

Well he didn't go to the bank, but what did he do for 1 1/2 hours when no one saw him?

Didn't John Fernie and not JR arrange for his bank to gather the money in case it was needed for the ransom?

 

[DeeDee249]

Well he didn't go to the bank, but what did he do for 1 1/2 hours when no one saw him?

Didn't John Fernie and not JR arrange for his bank to gather the money in case it was needed for the ransom?

I have read that, but obviously you have to consider the source. Even if he DID make such arrangements, that would just be more staging.

 

[UKGuy]

No it isn't odd the print was there UNLESS you consider that the door to that room had a latch up high on the frame specifically to prevent the children from playing in there, according to JR himself. Or unless you consider that the Rs lied about BR owning the Hi-Tecs when he himself said that he did.
Shoe/footprints are like fingerprints in that they can't be "dated" linked to a specific day or time other than circumstantially. For example, if the print belonged to someone who did not live there but was know to be there on the day a crime took place and the print was found in the vicinity of the crime then it would be circumstantial evidence.
Many kids of that age DO wear an adult's shoe size especially boys. My 10-year old nephew wears a men's size 11 shoe.

DeeDee249,

Here is the obvious question. If there was a footprint in the mold/dust, and some it may have been Burke's. And we reckon John and/or Patsy were in the wine-cellar that night, how come they left no footprints?

.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

Here is the obvious question. If there was a footprint in the mold/dust, and some it may have been Burke's. And we reckon John and/or Patsy were in the wine-cellar that night, how come they left no footprints?

.

Good question and actually, there were NO other discernible footprints other than the Hi-Tec. One reason could be that the movement required to place the blanket and JB in it may have obliterated the prints. Or the body and blanket itself may have smeared any prints there. Another is that the mold/dust was not uniform on the floor, and perhaps the print that was there was the only place the mold was in sufficient quantity to leave one.
Looking at that floor, there is certainly evidence of scuffing and general disturbing of the material on the floor. LE walked around too, no specific prints point to them either, though many LE do wear Hi-Tec shoes. The print need not be BR's to be connected to the crime or to have been left by LE that day.

 

[BBB167893]

Regardless, it doesn't strike me (and obviously not LE, either) odd or even a bit strange that a shoeprint of someone who lived in the house every single day was "close" to where the body was found. Shoot, it could have been 1/4 of a milimeter away from the body and it still doesn't amount to a hill of beans when the print supposedly belonged to a child living in the house every single day.

Exactly.

I will add, that although we have heard about this "Hi-Tec" shoeprint and the fact that Burke also owned a pair, it has never been documented anywhere, or even stated, that the shoeprint was the same size as Burke's foot, or the same size of any 9 year old boy. (Correct me if I am wrong). If it was, I have no doubt THAT info would have been leaked when the actual brand of the >insignificant< shoeprint was.

Well, you're off on one important thing: the print wasn't from the sole of the shoe, really. It was just a logo imprint. And the logo is always the same size.

 

[Tadpole12]

Well he didn't go to the bank, but what did he do for 1 1/2 hours when no one saw him?

Didn't John Fernie and not JR arrange for his bank to gather the money in case it was needed for the ransom?

Heyya SRN.

By Jan 1, the story goes ....

http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id...AIBAJ&pg=4648,483681&dq=ramsey+jonbenet&hl=en


Re JR:

"He said he had raised the $118,000 ransom demanded in a kidnapping note on just an hour's notice."

 

[DeeDee249]

Heyya SRN.

Re JR:

"He said he had raised the $118,000 ransom demanded in a kidnapping note on just an hour's notice."

And his son JAR made the comment that HE could have paid that ransom amount. (his point was that it was a ridiculously small amount for someone like his father).

 

[eleven]

Exactly.



Well, you're off on one important thing: the print wasn't from the sole of the shoe, really. It was just a logo imprint. And the logo is always the same size.

Really? It wasn't an actual shoe print? Just the logo from the bottom of the the shoe? Hmmmm....makes me wonder how it was determined to be a Size 9?:waitasec:

 

[eleven]

You say that like it meant something, Anubis. Those lie detector tests were bought and paid-for by the Ramseys with a specific goal in mind, not a legitimate test, and that was only after 3-1/2 years had already passed. And it took Patsy three tries to get it right. Anybody can pass a test if they take it enough ...

Above quote snipped by me in the interest of space....

Three times? In a post a few posts earlier than the one I have quotes above, Cynic says she passed one the second try.

There is so much conflicting information and "facts" that it is hard to tell the REAL deal, ya know? I think the "facts" have morphed so much over all of these years, that many people aren't SURE of the facts.

 

[BBB167893]

Really? It wasn't an actual shoe print? Just the logo from the bottom of the the shoe? Hmmmm....makes me wonder how it was determined to be a Size 9?:waitasec:

The logo was the only part that stood out. The rest was all faded. Burke is said to have admitted that he had them in his GJ testimony. That's how I understood it.

Three times? In a post a few posts earlier than the one I have quotes above, Cynic says she passed one the second try.

I'd always heard three. There were a LOT of problems with those tests, as I mentioned. I devoted an entire chapter to it.

There is so much conflicting information and "facts" that it is hard to tell the REAL deal, ya know? I think the "facts" have morphed so much over all of these years, that many people aren't SURE of the facts.

Don't I know it! All we can do is our best.

 

[cynic]

I'd always heard three. There were a LOT of problems with those tests, as I mentioned. I devoted an entire chapter to it.

It was three. In my earlier post I said, "They decided initially on Jerry Toriello, and after failing to pass his tests, they were tested by Ed Gelb."
They both failed with Toriello and PR also failed once with Gelb, the second time around with Gelb she passed.

 

[BBB167893]

It was three. In my earlier post I said, "They decided initially on Jerry Toriello, and after failing to pass his tests, they were tested by Ed Gelb."
They both failed with Toriello and PR also failed once with Gelb, the second time around with Gelb she passed.

Easy to get mixed up. I meant that Gelb had to test her three times to get a passing score.

 

[CathyR]

JR did NOT leave the house that morning. I do not think he went to go get the ransom money. Do you have a link indicating he went to the bank?
The "kidnappers" were supposed to call- they never did. No surprise there- there were no kidnappers.

I do believe he called Westmoreland to get money together and make sure denominations were as asked.

 

[otg]

Just a note here on the Hi-Tec shoe print, if I can add to the conversation…

I think that by the time BPD started looking for shoe prints, there were other prints. For some reason, they honed in on the Hi-Tec. I’m not sure of the shoe manufacturing process, but I would tend to believe the size of the company logo would be the same, for at least a grouping of sizes, in order to cut down production costs on mold sizes for the soles (just speculating here). Even then, the size of the logo compared to the distance to the edge could be used to find, or at least estimate, the size. (Surely they contacted the company to get information on that?)

Here’s a leaked picture of the shoe print:

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/art/extra/ramsey/img038.jpg
​

Other shoe print pictures are at the same URL with the last part being 029, 039, 040, 041.
.

 

[CathyR]

Lie Detectors are not considered reliable. They should be called emotion detectors as they detect that best. Your heart rate, pulse or blood pressure is what is measured.

What has proven ineffective is that they are 100% effective at detecting the change in those things but more than lie vs truth affects those things.

You have someone close to you brutally murdered and go take a Lie detector test, if you don't flunk I'm suspicious as your emotional response to the murder is very cold. What is on the subconscious level is not always a lie or the truth just emotions.

I for one don't think I could pass a lie detector test about who what or where, as I am an emotional communicator. My face, my hands, my body all become extensions of what I am expressing. I don't think I could sit still and not move my hands or turn my head. I'm sure I'd feel peeved about being asked some questions.

I don't even know why anyone uses them anymore. It is like using leaches to treat all medical ailments as far as how unreliable and outdated it is.

When a person doesn't pass a portion of the test then police hammer away at that aspect of the case as they believe the person is holding back or not telling them everything. Considering that the lawyers allowed questioning but not interrogation, any info gained from a flunking a test would be moot.

Her testing is relevant as Patsy is certain to have an emotional response to her daughters death regardless of guilt or innocence, grief or guilt is going to show up no matter what.

 

[BBB167893]

Lie Detectors are not considered reliable. They should be called emotion detectors as they detect that best. Your heart rate, pulse or blood pressure is what is measured.

What has proven ineffective is that they are 100% effective at detecting the change in those things but more than lie vs truth affects those things.

You have someone close to you brutally murdered and go take a Lie detector test, if you don't flunk I'm suspicious as your emotional response to the murder is very cold. What is on the subconscious level is not always a lie or the truth just emotions.

I for one don't think I could pass a lie detector test about who what or where, as I am an emotional communicator. My face, my hands, my body all become extensions of what I am expressing. I don't think I could sit still and not move my hands or turn my head. I'm sure I'd feel peeved about being asked some questions.

I don't even know why anyone uses them anymore. It is like using leeches to treat all medical ailments as far as how unreliable and outdated it is.

When a person doesn't pass a portion of the test then police hammer away at that aspect of the case as they believe the person is holding back or not telling them everything. Considering that the lawyers allowed questioning but not interrogation, any info gained from a flunking a test would be moot.

Bravo, CathyR! You've hit the nail on the head. Lie detector tests have outlived their usefulness. In fact, about the only thing they're good for is "hammering away" at someone who didn't pass to get a confession. That's probably what the Rs were worried about.

Either way, even if I KNEW I was innocent, I still wouldn't take one.

Her testing is relevant as Patsy is certain to have an emotional response to her daughters death regardless of guilt or innocence, grief or guilt is going to show up no matter what.

That's about ALL this one was good for.

I've said it a million times: we have rights in this country, and one of them is not to talk to the police or subject yourself to things like a lie detector. If the Rs don't want to do those, that's their right. But that's the right to keep silent. There is NO right to lie. And lie they have! They lied about the police not offering them a lie detector test early on. They lied about saying they would (their own words trip them up). And their bought-and-paid for test conducted by a publicity hungry FRAUD like Ed Gelb is, in and of itself, a gigantic lie, start to finish.

If the Rs exercise their right to keep silent, we should not judge them for that. If they lie, we SHOULD judge them.

 

[BBB167893]

Just a note here on the Hi-Tec shoe print, if I can add to the conversation…

I think that by the time BPD started looking for shoe prints, there were other prints. For some reason, they honed in on the Hi-Tec. I’m not sure of the shoe manufacturing process, but I would tend to believe the size of the company logo would be the same, for at least a grouping of sizes, in order to cut down production costs on mold sizes for the soles (just speculating here). Even then, the size of the logo compared to the distance to the edge could be used to find, or at least estimate, the size. (Surely they contacted the company to get information on that?)

Here’s a leaked picture of the shoe print:

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/art/extra/ramsey/img038.jpg
​

Other shoe print pictures are at the same URL with the last part being 029, 039, 040, 041.
.

:clap: I was just coming to that, otg!