Read this and tell me the Ramseys aren't hiding something ...

[LovelyPigeon]

Barbara, I'm not sure what post you're referring to. I've never thought parents shouldn't be an immediate focus when a child is found dead in their home. In the Ramsey case, though, I think focus should have shifted to an intruder long before the Boulder DA's office took over the case 6 years after the murder.

What Bynum said about representing the Ramseys is what we have to go on. Here's what he said to Diane Sawyer:

SAWYER: December 26,how did you hear that something had happened?

BYNUM: I had been snowshoeing with my family and friends, and we were.

SAWYER: When Bynum, who had lost an infant grandchild of his own, learned that JonBenet had been murdered, he rushed to a friend's house, where the Ramseys and their 9yo son Burke had gone to stay. Can you tell me about what you saw when you walked in that door?

BYNUM: I think I can. John and Patsy were there with family and friends, their minister. And just after I got there, everyone was sorry was kneeling in the living room and praying together. And when they got through, I went up and hugged John and and then I went over to Patsy. She was sitting on the couch. And I had to help her up and and give her a hug. So that was what I found when I got there. Everyone was devastated.It was difficult.

SAWYER: And there is someone else who was there that night who says Patsy Ramsey had collapsed.

BEUF: She was just lying on the floor.

SAWYER: His name is Dr Francesco Beuf. He was JonBenet's pediatrician. He talked to me by phone about whether Mrs Ramsey's grief was real.

BEUF: Oh, for God's sake, she was as devastated as anyone could be by a terrible loss like that. They called me to provide some tranquilizers for her. She was absolutely shattered by this.

SAWYER: And Mr Ramsey?

BEUF: He looked absolutely devastated. To me, they were the most appropriate reactions in the world. God knows, I wouldn't know how I'd react if one of my children had been murdered, particularly in such horrible circumstances. He paced and paced and paced. He and I went out for a walk for awhile that night. It's the wreckage of two human beings.

SAWYER: Even so, we were told the Ramseys volunteered to give hair, fingerprint, blood samples. And John Ramsey offered to be formally interviewed by the police if he could do it in the house near his family. Bynum says it didn't happen only because police wanted both parents, and Dr Beuf said Patsy Ramsey wasn't able to talk.

BEUF: I had advised that it was not good to have Patsy there because she was under heavy sedation and would not have been able to function. And then the story came out that the Ramseys had refused to be interviewed by the police. That is just flat wrong.I sat there.

SAWYER: Why did they get a lawyer?

BYNUM: I went, as their friend, to help. And I felt that they should have legal advice nothing more, nothing less.

SAWYER: So you're the reason they got a lawyer?

BYNUM: I'm the one.

SAWYER: It did not occur to them first?

BYNUM: They certainly never made any mention of it to me.

SAWYER: I'm trying to imagine, if I am in the middle of this agony and my friend says to me, "You better get a lawyer " I think I'd go, "What? What?"

BYNUM: Well

SAWYER: This horrible thing has happened to my child. There's a note here. I should get a lawyer?

BYNUM: Well, first of all, that was not the words that I used. I told John there were some legal issues that I thought needed to be taken care of. And John just looked at me and said, "Do whatever you think needs to be done," and he and Burke he went into a room to talk with Burke and so I did.

SAWYER: What made you think there were legal issues?

BYNUM: I was a prosecutor. I know how this works. I know where the police attention's going to go, right from the get go.

SAWYER: And he says that's exactly what happened. By Saturday, two days after the murder that the police were openly hostile. An assistant DA gave him some news.

BYNUM: He said the police are refusing to release JonBenet's body for burial unless John and Patsy give them interviews. I have never heard of anything like that. I said to the DA, "I don't know whether or not this is illegal, but I'm sure it's immoral and unethical." I just was not willing to participate and facilitate or do anything other than to say "no." Not only no, but hell, no, you're not getting an interview. And I did say that.

SAWYER: Did they authorize you to say that?

BYNUM: John and Patsy? No. Absolutely not.They weren't in the room. They didn't know what was going on. And I wasn't going to bring them in on it. I did it.

 

[tipper]

I don't see why you feel getting up at 5:30 doesn't work. The drive to the airport takes 20 minutes. Add 10 minutes for Patsy to get dressed and made up. I do it in less when I know what I'm going to wear but I rounded up for her. That leaves a half hour to get two kids, who are most likely excited about seeing their brother and sister not to mention having a second Christmas, up and out the door with a couple bags of clothes and presents.

If they got up at 4 what in the world would you have them do for 2 hours?

 

[Jayelles]

The Ramseys were lying their heads off that morning.

The Ramseys were lying about what time they had gotten out of bed. They would have never made it to the airport, a 20-minute drive, by 6:30 A.M. if they didn't get out of bed until 5:30. That's one lie.

I have a 15 minute drive to work so I'm trying to equate this. I think that 1 hour is about the least time I would leave in order to get up, ready and going. If the Ramseys were packed and the kids were going in their jammys, it's not unreasonable. The only thing I would think about is that if they were actually leaving the state for a few days, did they leave enough time to go round and check doors, windows etc, but then it doesn't seem as though they were terribly security conscious.

 

[sissi]

Yes ,Jayelles,I was addressing those that believe differently,those that believe Patsy and John were not suspects that first day. In a real investigation I would expect them to be considered,but not to "let go" of initial "gut feels" based on eye contact and splayed hands shows a definite lack of either imagination or training on the part of the police. Then to compound this,the egotistical BPD refused to be wrong,they kept shoving that square peg into that proverbial round hole. This is where the investigators went wrong,they didn't widen their scope ,they didn't want to find themselves wrong.
Were the Ramseys to blame for all of this? Were they not devastated? Did they know they were the suspects then and now and forever and that any personal niceties they expected were misconstrued as stonewalling? They were people of privilege and likely "banged classes" ,and instead of a real investigation it became a power war for the BPD. The Ramseys were naive and unaware of all of this at the time. They had no idea ,they knew they were innocent,and couldn't have expect the consequences that followed.
IMO

 

[BlueCrab]

Estimated timeline for trying to get to the airport by 6:30 A.M. after getting up at 5:30 A.M:

1. Bathroom, shower, dress, make-up: 15 minutes

2. Make coffee, set out breakfast items, drink coffee: 10 minutes

3. Finish packing, wash and dry clothing items in second floor laundry: 15 minutes

4. Wake up kids, get them washed up and dressed; 15 minutes

5. Eat breakfast (They planned to be in the air the rest of the day and wouldn't have left home without eating something): 15 minutes

6. Straighten up kitchen, check house inside and out (they'll be gone for a long time): 10 minutes

7. Load luggage and presents into car, last call for bathroom, get kids into car: 10 minutes

8. Drive to Jeffco Airport (15 miles) 20 minutes

Total = 110 minutes, or 50 minutes late getting to the airport.

JMO

 

[Jayelles]

Estimated timeline for trying to get to the airport by 6:30 A.M. after getting up at 5:30 A.M:

1. Bathroom, shower, dress, make-up: 15 minutes

ok

2. Make coffee, set out breakfast items, drink coffee: 10 minutes

maybe if she sat down and did nothing but drink her coffee. if she's like me, she would do jobs whilst drinking the coffee.

3. Finish packing, wash and dry clothing items in second floor laundry: 15 minutes

5-10 minutes to run round collecting stuff and chuck them in bag.

4. Wake up kids, get them washed up and dressed; 15 minutes
My understanding that they were travelling au-jammy. Therefore, 5 minutes to haul them out of bed and put them in the car.

5. Eat breakfast (They planned to be in the air the rest of the day and wouldn't have left home without eating something): 15 minutes

No mention of breakfast. Possibly had snacks for plane

6. Straighten up kitchen, check house inside and out (they'll be gone for a long time): 10 minutes

OK about house checks, but I doubt Patsy would have bothered about straightening the kitchen

7. Load luggage and presents into car, last call for bathroom, get kids into car: 10 minutes

John could have been loading car whilst Patsy got kids into the car - not 10 minutes

8. Drive to Jeffco Airport (15 miles) 20 minutes

Total = 110 minutes, or 50 minutes late getting to the airport.

nah, they would probably have been rushed, but I don't think it's unreasonable

JMO

 

[SisterSocks]

So Patsy didn't go to the bathroom for FOUR MONTHS??? Gee, no wonder she's so fat now!...LOL

Ya know, its the statement above that SCREAMS ---Judge not; lest YOU be judge.

 

[Toth]

I'm not going to quibble with your rather generous time estimates, but I do want to say that I imagine it would not have been the first time Patsy Ramsey, nor any other woman, was late for something!

 

[Jayelles]

I'm not going to quibble with your rather generous time estimates, but I do want to say that I imagine it would not have been the first time Patsy Ramsey, nor any other woman, was late for something!

And when a woman is late, her husband gets irritated.

 

[Maxi]

In a real investigation I would expect them to be considered,but not to "let go" of initial "gut feels" based on eye contact and splayed hands shows a definite lack of either imagination or training on the part of the police. Then to compound this,the egotistical BPD refused to be wrong,they kept shoving that square peg into that proverbial round hole. This is where the investigators went wrong,they didn't widen their scope ,they didn't want to find themselves wrong.
Were the Ramseys to blame for all of this? Were they not devastated? Did they know they were the suspects then and now and forever and that any personal niceties they expected were misconstrued as stonewalling? They were people of privilege and likely "banged classes" ,and instead of a real investigation it became a power war for the BPD. The Ramseys were naive and unaware of all of this at the time. They had no idea ,they knew they were innocent,and couldn't have expect the consequences that followed.
IMO

The police are trained to watch body language and other behaviors. There's nothing unprofessional about those observations. As for the class dynamic, my observation is that the Ramseys were treated with kid gloves because of their social standing and wealth. It's rather unusual for cops to quickly accede to a suspect's or witness's refusal to be interrogated at the station, much less to be interrogated at all.

I find it hard to believe there was anyone so naive that they wouldn't understand they would immediately be suspect when their child was found dead in their home. This was post-Susan Smith. It was post-Adam Walsh. Cop shows, movies, newpapers, and books regularly made mention of parents as first suspects. The Ramseys were certainly exposed to the same media as the rest of us.

I don't think they were so much naive as arrogant. My impression from their statements is that they thought they wouldn't, or shouldn't, be considered because they weren't the kind of people who would kill their daughter. IOW, they felt they were too good to be considered seriously. When the police didn't respond as the Ramseys thought they would, they began parading their virtues in the media so the public would exonerate them, rather than trying to assist in the police investigation.

 

[tipper]

Estimated timeline for trying to get to the airport by 6:30 A.M. after getting up at 5:30 A.M:

1. Bathroom, shower, dress, make-up: 15 minutes
2. Make coffee, set out breakfast items, drink coffee: 10 minutes
3. Finish packing, wash and dry clothing items in second floor laundry: 15 minutes
4. Wake up kids, get them washed up and dressed; 15 minutes
5. Eat breakfast (They planned to be in the air the rest of the day and wouldn't have left home without eating something): 15 minutes
6. Straighten up kitchen, check house inside and out (they'll be gone for a long time): 10 minutes
7. Load luggage and presents into car, last call for bathroom, get kids into car: 10 minutes
8. Drive to Jeffco Airport (15 miles) 20 minutes

Total = 110 minutes, or 50 minutes late getting to the airport.

JMO

No offense BC, but I would go NUTS traveling with you.

Since our image of the Ramsey’s departure timetable reflects our own way of doing things this is how I see it:

1. Up, bathroom, dress, makeup – <10 min
2. Downstairs, start coffee – 5 minutes
3. Wake kids tell them to get dressed. While kids are dressing, run down and get cup of coffee, back upstairs, throw last minute clothes in bags – 10 minutes
4. Herd kids out door while carrying bags. One adult loads rest of luggage while other checks house. 10 minutes.

Time: 35 minutes + 20 minute drive to airport = 55 minutes

If kids want something to eat they can get it themselves while I finish with last minute clothes. Otherwise they can eat a snack in the plane or we'd do MacDonalds drive-thru on the way to the airport and add maybe 5 minutes.

 

[Imon128]

The call to 911 came in at 5:52.

Patsy got up a few minutes after John, who got up at 5:30, making it approx. 5:35 when Patsy got up. She went in to put her makeup on, go potty, wash up, put her clothes on, and if it took her 10 min, that would make it approx. 5:45. She gets up, goes down the steps, stops on the kids floor and messes with an article of clothing (in a sink?) on the next floor down. Another 5 min? 3? Let's say 3...that would then make it about 5:48 when she descended the steps. So, using that timeframe, she and John would have had approx. 5 min. to get to the note on the steps, check JB's room, summon John, John to get down the steps, do this thing, and so on and so on, read and digest the note, look around, discuss, etc. I don't think 5 min. would have been enough time for the couple to do all they supposedly did prior to the 911 call. For instance, did John have to go somewhere to get his eyeglasses? You get my drift, I hope.

 

[Ivy]

Originally posted by BlueCrab
I think the Ramseys got up around 4:00 A.M.

BlueCrab, you could be very close to right about that. John's "3 A.M." slip-of-the-tongue on LKL might indicate that things started popping at the Ramsey house at 3 A.M. That's the only reason I can think of for John to have had 3 A.M. on the brain during the LKL interview.

Anyone remember what time it was when the neighbor thought she heard a scream?

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/27/lkl.00.html

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Melody Stanton was the neighbor and she said it was about midnight.

 

[Ivy]

LP, thanks. I couldn't remember her name. According to PMPT, Melody Stanton told police that she was sure she'd heard a child scream at about 2 A.M. (pb page 76)

It was sometime after the scream that Stanton's husband reportedly heard a crashing sound like metal on concrete. (pb page 531)

Again...why did John have 3 A.M. on the brain during the LKL interview? I think some serious damage control--writing the RN, contacting an attorney friend, etc.-- might have been going on in the Ramsey house at that time.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

According to Charlie Brennan, who got his information from Jeff Shapiro who talked to Stanton, she heard the scream about midnight. As I recall, her woke her husband who said he then heard a noise outside (not a scream) after she went back to sleep. I think the husband may have said he looked at a clock.
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/1108rams.shtml
Melody Stanton, a Ramsey neighbor at the time, told police she woke with a start not long after midnight Dec. 26, 1996, to a frightening scream; her statement was first reported by the Globe supermarket weekly nearly a year later. ABC's 20/20 reported that Stanton typically slept with her window slightly open. -

According to Thomas, Stanton reneged on her story, if she had ever actually told it to police in the first place. She said something about hearing psychic energy or some such thing rather than a scream.

As for why JR said 3 o'clock in the morning, I think it was just an innocent getting flustered moment. We all have those.

 

[Ivy]

I think John saying 3 AM while discussing the events surrounding JonBenet's death means that 3 AM was on his brain for a reason connected to the awful event.

Melody Stanton didn't like being hounded by the media, according to PMPT, and she even moved away to distance herself from the case. Maybe she heard a scream and maybe she didn't. If she heard one, maybe it was at midnight, or maybe it was at 2 AM. Scream aside, the fact is that John had 3 AM on his brain...and because he did, so now do I.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

On the occasion when JR said 3 am it was 3 1/4 years after JonBenét was killed. Maybe JR & Patsy had gotten up at 3 am that day to fly to New York to appear on LKL. Maybe their flight landed at 3am. Maybe they were catching a 3 am flight back to Atlanta. It could be anything, but most likely is absolutely nothing.

Now, if JR has repeatedly referred to 3 am in interviews or speaking engagements, I'd say you might have something. Otherwise...not.

 

[Imon128]

Good question, Ivy. Either way, John loses. If he didn't study the facts of his daughter's death any more closely, and retain those facts, that says something about him, too. I be we know more facts about JB's death, than John or Patsy allow the public to believe, they know. Sigh.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

FWIW, ST says BPD put JonBenét's death between 10 pm and 1 am. p147