Reasons why you think it could be suicide

[MyBelle]

BBM on i.b.nora. I don't understand your reasoning MyBelle. If he wasn't there to represent someone, then why was he there? He clearly stated that he had been hired to represent someone connected with the case. If that doesn't suggest, if not confirm, that he was there as a criminal defense attorney I don't know what does.

Who else could he have been hired to represent except AS? AS was the only person at the scene, he was the one who found her, and would be (or at least should be) a POI until cleared. I suppose he could have been there to represent DR or NR but it seems unlikely since they weren't there.

He stated that he was not JS's attorney. He never said he wasn't AS's attorney.

The topic is why we believe it was suicide. Why would Adam hire a defense attorney? He was a witness, he voluntarily took a poly and more 18 months later RZ's death is still a suicide.

I didn't say Pfingst wasn't there representing someone, I said there is no indication he was there in the capacity as a suspect's criminal defense attorney. I believe he was there to ensure search warrants were executed properly. Most likely he was retained by Medicis to ensure no corporate papers or work products Jonah may have had in the home were seized.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

I don't think there is any way to "spin" Paul Pfingst's fairly immediate presence on the scene, as innocuous, expected, collaborative, friendly, helpful, or anything similar. And his presence can't be dismissed, either. It's highly significant.

He wasn't just "passing by" either. He was contacted rapidly, just a few hours after the body was discovered, from someone who knew exactly how to get almost immediate personal access to this former prosecutor in private practice. The person who called, IMO, was not flipping thru the yellow pages, or searching google for "find a lawyer." And the person who contacted Paul Pfingst was successful at persuading this high power attorney to literally drop what he was doing for the day, and get in the car to go to the scene. To represent "someone", who we now know was Adam. To "protect his rights", I'm sure.

Paul Pfingst's presence is a huge piece of evidence in how Rebecca's death investigation unfolded in the earliest hours-- imo, and the opinion of many others. It's not innuendo or speculation-- it is factual that he was contacted, he went there, he was photographed inside the crime tape with investigators (and in a "chummy" fashion), he was calling the police station unpublished numbers to intervene/ interfere with the questioning of AS-- who, from Ann Rule's descriptions, didn't even know he HAD an attorney, at that point. And if I'm not mistaken, AS was not even still at the mansion when PP showed up, so an excuse that he came to pick up his client can't even be used.

Attorneys who represent anyone connected with a suspicious death are not permitted to be part of a death investigation or crime scene processing, in any way. That is not their job. H wasn't just "at" the scene-- he was "inside" the scene. That is a clear conflict of interest. Period.

Paul Pfingst's presence and involvement is extremely significant. And he knew he shouldn't have been there, either. He's a former prosecutor, for pete's sake. He was using his recognition and influence, period, imo.

He was there even BEFORE the ME's office responded (lol, it's easier to get a defense attorney than a medical examiner), with the body still there, uncovered and displayed grotesquely to gawkers and news helicopters. He absolutely used his influence to get onto, and inside the scene of what was initially suspected by police to be a murder, and he CONTINUED to use the influence and knowledge from his previous position as DA by making calls into the interrogation rooms (unpublished numbers) at the jail to influence what was happening with Adam Shacknai.

I think this is a very strong argument for conflict of interest and impropriety in the investigation, and I hope the AG's office agrees at some point.

There is absolutely no indication Pfingst was there in the capacity as a criminal defense attorney representing an individual. The fact that he was allowed within the crime scene tape is an indication he was there for a different reason. The suicide was 18 months ago and there is no argument for conflict of interest.

LE can let anyone they want into a crime scene and apparently the detectives, the existing DA didn't have a problem with it then and neither does the AG now.

JMO

 

[Carioca]

There is absolutely no indication Pfingst was there in the capacity as a criminal defense attorney representing an individual. The fact that he was allowed within the crime scene tape is an indication he was there for a different reason. The suicide was 18 months ago and there is no argument for conflict of interest.

LE can let anyone they want into a crime scene and apparently the detectives, the existing DA didn't have a problem with it then and neither does the AG now.

JMO

Prominent San Diego defense attorney Paul Pfingst visited the home late Wednesday night... Pfingst would only say that he was hired by someone involved in the case but was forbidden to speak with that person.
http://www.10news.com/news/evidence-sealed-in-coronado-mansion-death-investigation

Please state where you read that the AG does not have a problem with that as I do not recall hearing or reading that. TYA

 

[Nom de plume]

"Wednesday evening, former District Attorney and current defense attorney Paul Pfingst showed up at the crime scene. Pfingst confirmed to News 8 that he had been hired to represent someone connected with this case, although he would not specify who his client is.
"I'm not Jonah's lawyer. I've never spoke with him. As far as I know he's not a suspect of any type," Pfingst said in a statement."

From: http://www.cbs8.com/story/15075598/...to-speak?clienttype=printable&redirected=true

BBM CBM Once again, how can you say he was not there to represent a client in the capacity of a defense attorney? He clearly states this in his OWN WORDS!

There is absolutely no indication Pfingst was there in the capacity as a criminal defense attorney representing an individual. The fact that he was allowed within the crime scene tape is an indication he was there for a different reason. The suicide was 18 months ago and there is no argument for conflict of interest.

LE can let anyone they want into a crime scene and apparently the detectives, the existing DA didn't have a problem with it then and neither does the AG now.

JMO

BBM There is EVERY indication he was there in that EXACT capacity! The fact that he was allowed within the crime scene tape is an indication he HAD CONNECTIONS due to his previous employment!

JMO, but blatently ignoring facts does not change them. Fact: Pfingst SAID he was there for that reason. I'd call that a FACT, unless you think he was lying. The only possible question would be who was he representing? He said it isn't JS. No one else was there except AS, who would have automatically been a POI, if not a flat out murder suspect, until such time as a determination of suicide vs. murder could be established.

 

[MyBelle]

Prominent San Diego defense attorney Paul Pfingst visited the home late Wednesday night... Pfingst would only say that he was hired by someone involved in the case but was forbidden to speak with that person.
http://www.10news.com/news/evidence-sealed-in-coronado-mansion-death-investigation

Please state where you read that the AG does not have a problem with that as I do not recall hearing or reading that. TYA

afaik, the AG has said nothing about Mr. Pfingst. Where did you read that the AG was investigating him? Isn't he still a member of the California Bar and practicing law?

Accusations that Mr. Pfingst acted improperly or engaged in collusion with law enforcement don't seem to be based on any real facts but instead innuendo based on imagination. I doubt the AG ever comments.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

BBM CBM Once again, how can you say he was not there to represent a client in the capacity of a defense attorney? He clearly states this in his OWN WORDS!



BBM There is EVERY indication he was there in that EXACT capacity! The fact that he was allowed within the crime scene tape is an indication he HAD CONNECTIONS due to his previous employment!

JMO, but blatently ignoring facts does not change them. Fact: Pfingst SAID he was there for that reason. I'd call that a FACT, unless you think he was lying. The only possible question would be who was he representing? He said it isn't JS. No one else was there except AS, who would have automatically been a POI, if not a flat out murder suspect, until such time as a determination of suicide vs. murder could be established.

Pfingst said he was there representing a client. It is a giant leap to assume his client was a homicide suspect. Witnesses in high-profile cases do hire attorneys. Amber Frey was never a suspect but she still hired Gloria Allred. Corporations hire attorneys when a case involves a CEO.

JMO

 

[Nom de plume]

Pfingst said he was there representing a client. It is a giant leap to assume his client was a homicide suspect. Witnesses in high-profile cases do hire attorneys. Amber Frey was never a suspect but she still hired Gloria Allred. Corporations hire attorneys when a case involves a CEO.

JMO

So if I'm following you correctly, you think that some unknown person, that was not a POI or suspect, hired him to represent them, but not in the capacity of a criminal defense attorney, even though that is what he specialized in. Ok....:waitasec:

Amber Frey did not hire Allred to show up at the scene of a murder or suicide the day the body was found!

Just who exactly do you think hired him and why? He said it was not JS, so that should exclude Medicis as well, as he did own the company at the time.

 

[MyBelle]

So if I'm following you correctly, you think that some unknown person, that was not a POI or suspect, hired him to represent them, but not in the capacity of a criminal defense attorney, even though that is what he specialized in. Ok....:waitasec:

Amber Frey did not hire Allred to show up at the scene of a murder or suicide the day the body was found!

Just who exactly do you think hired him and why? He said it was not JS, so that should exclude Medicis as well, as he did own the company at the time.

I've already stated upthread that I believe Pfingst was there representing Medicis, which was a publicly traded company not a private one.

JMO

 

[Carioca]

I've already stated upthread that I believe Pfingst was there representing Medicis, which was a publicly traded company not a private one.

JMO

Let me see if I can follow your thinking.

You are saying that criminal defense attorney ex-DA Paul Pfingst was there representing the interests of publicly traded Medicis, and in that, one can only presume the interests of the shareholders, correct? Thus when Pfingst called Gore's private number in order to get a message to Adam as soon as possible to advise Adam that he should avoid the polygraph machine, Pfingst was acting in Medicis' interest?

Quoting from Ann Rule's "Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors":

"Paul Pfingst used a non-published phone number to reach the police… to tell them not to give his client (Adam) a polygraph. In this recorded call, Pfingst referred to the incident as a 'homicide.'"

Therefore, by saying Pfingst was representing Medicis, and Pfingst admits to representing Adam, you are saying Adam is associated to Medicis in some capacity other than being the brother of Medicis CEO? I doubt that even a major shareholder would get that sort of preferential treatment. Or perhaps you are saying Adam was on the Medicis payroll at the time? Now that IS an interesting concept.

 

[teeandcee]

I searched this thread and couldn't find the answer to my question. How do you all explain her ability to get to the balcony and heave herself over while hogtied? I actually lean towards suicide but can't get past this problem, especially with the small amount of disturbances in the dust on the railing and flooring of the balcony.

Is there a pic anywhere of exactly how she was tied? Was it a loose type of hogtie that enabled her to move around?

Edited to say I just watched a TV reenactment and they convinced me if their tying was the same as RZ's.

 

[K_Z]

Let me see if I can follow your thinking.

Quoting from Ann Rule's "Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors":

"Paul Pfingst used a non-published phone number to reach the police… to tell them not to give his client (Adam) a polygraph. In this recorded call, Pfingst referred to the incident as a 'homicide.'"

You are saying that criminal defense attorney ex-DA Paul Pfingst was there representing the interests of publicly traded Medicis, and in that, one can only presume the interests of the shareholders, correct? Thus when Pfingst called Gore's private number in order to get a message to Adam as soon as possible to advise Adam that he should avoid the polygraph machine, Pfingst was acting in Medicis' interest?

Therefore, by saying Pfingst was representing Medicis, and Pfingst admits to representing Adam, you are saying Adam is associated to Medicis in some capacity other than being the brother of Medicis CEO? I doubt that even a major shareholder would get that sort of preferential treatment. Or perhaps you are saying Adam was on the Medicis payroll at the time? Now that IS an interesting concept.

I agree, Carioca, that Paul Pfingst representing Medicis is simply a staggering leap of logic. I'm pretty sure even Paul Pfingst himself would not want his involvement characterized as representing the "interests of a publicly traded pharmaceutical company" in a homicide investigation! The implications of that are staggering, both for him and the person who hired him.

No, I think it's pretty straight forward. PP was immediately (before the body was removed!) hired as a criminal defense attorney representing Adam Shacknai's interests in a homicide investigation, just as he said. And it's pretty clear AS isn't the one who called him and hired him that morning. Adam didn't even know he HAD an attorney at that point.

It is as clear a conflict of interest as any I could imagine-- and made even more so by his previous position as DA. The only attorneys who should be inside the crime tape of a homicide investigation with a body still there are from the prosecutors office. Otherwise, they are interfering and obstructing a homicide investigation. That isn't a good position for any attorney to be in, imo.

Remember that Jose Baez in the Casey Anthony case tried that trick when a child's remains were found (unidentified at that point)-- demanded to be involved in the scene recovery and investigation, etc.

If for no other reason than to thoroughly investigate the Paul Pfingst involvement and influence, then the case should be reopened. I hope the AG's office agrees. If they thought the request was frivolous or without merit, they would have quickly closed out the request and got it off their desk a very long time ago. Witness how fast the AG responded to Jonah's request (which was a foregone conclusion before he ever sent the letter.) There will be a response one way or another. The AG won't ignore this. It just isn't time YET.

 

[time]

I searched this thread and couldn't find the answer to my question. How do you all explain her ability to get to the balcony and heave herself over while hogtied? I actually lean towards suicide but can't get past this problem, especially with the small amount of disturbances in the dust on the railing and flooring of the balcony.

Is there a pic anywhere of exactly how she was tied? Was it a loose type of hogtie that enabled her to move around?

Edited to say I just watched a TV reenactment and they convinced me if their tying was the same as RZ's.

Why do you think she was hogtied?

Convinced you of what?

 

[DeDee]

I do not think you can term someone emotionally or mentally unbalanced from one incident of shoplifting. It very well could be that one incident was bad judgment, but that does not indicate a continuing problem with anything. It's a misdemeanor. I would not even term one DUI as indicating continuing mental imbalance or many other things that are misdemeanors. However, continued emotional and physical abuse between partners, in one's own home with a child and abusing alcohol or drugs is a sign of someone who has problems.

You keep saying this is a suicide that looks like a homicide, but there is no indication of that. And, no reason Rebecca would commit suicide because she was depressed but also thought to try and pin it on someone - if she did, then she sure didn't make it look like Jonah was the culprit.

Since you are bringing homicide into this thread, then I think it's appropriate to reply that this looks like a homicide, not a suicide trying to disguise itself as a homicide. One can only painfully twist things so far until they make no sense.

In the state of California, stealing property valued at over $950 is considered a grand theft crime under Penal Code 487. "In most cases, the offense of grand theft in California is a wobbler. This means that the prosecutor may choose to charge you with either misdemeanor or felony grand theft. The maximum potential sentence for misdemeanor grand theft is up to one (1) year in county jail. For felony grand theft, you may be sentenced to sixteen (16) months, two (2) years, or three (3) years of incarceration."

"Shoplifting at a high-end store can easily invite California grand theft charges."

http://www.shouselaw.com/grand-theft.html

"According to Phoenix court records, Zahau was charged with shoplifting in 2009. Police said she entered a Macy’s store and put more than $1,000 in jewelry into shopping bags from different stores. Loss prevention officers stopped her as she was walking out and called police, said Sgt. Steve Martos."

"She pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor and agreed to pay nearly $500 and attend a shoplifting diversion course. She used a court-appointed attorney."

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2011/jul/15/woman-mansion-mystery-devoted-tycoon-boyfriend/

DS discovered the arrest charges against RZ/RN. Thus, DS developed great concerns for her son's welfare when in RZ/RN's presence. She proved to be right about her fears. She lost her only child while he was at the mansion with the thief.

MOO and subject to change without notice

 

[DeDee]

My responses are in royal blue.

I think many of these suicide theories have alot of merrit. I can defineately see a woman killing herself under these circumstances. However, when I go over the physical evidence it doesn't follow through.

It is the iron railing dust marks that do not add up. With hands tied behind her back, feet tied tightly together, t-shirt tied three times and knotted around her neck and the noose... how does she get over the railing.

The San Diego Sheriff's pp report: Rebecca "leaned forward and fell."

With her feet tied so tightly together it is impossible for her to get any momentum going to launch herself over that railing. The momentum to go over that railing she would have to have leaped several feet away. There is one toe print near the railing. Did she leave this when she tested the length of the rope? Again with feed tied to tightly... impossible to get momentum.

In leaning over the rail, Rebecca's left thigh brushed away the dust from the iron railing. Her toe prints are pointing right, she leans toward her left side and falls. No momentum required.

Then....if she hops to the edge of the railing... to tip her centre of gravity she has to lay completely over that railing face forward. The dust marks on the railing are simply not wide enough and the marks on RZ's body do not match up. Putting all your weight on your front hips would leave bruises. That kind of movement on that railing would leave at least 12 to 15 inches of dust completely rubbed off. There are only three spots of dust rubbed off that railing all made by the rope.

If she killed herself how did she get over that railing?

And let's not forget she did this in the dark. The lights were out in the room. All of them when the police arrived.

What about the contusions on her head? Dr. Wecht states these could have resulted in her becoming unconscious. There was a very large heavy red dog bone in that room. I have held these they weight several lbs.

The dog bone was not a piece of work-out equipment; rather it most likely was Ocean's chew toy. Rebecca may have knocked herself in the head with it and screamed aloud in frustration at the drastic turn her life had taken when Maxie landed on the first floor with irreparable brain damage.

Then you add that to the neck damage. That is a very long drop and the neck does not show evidence of a long drop break. In fact there are TWO areas of damage on her neck. One from the t-shirt... and one from the rope?

Rebecca actually fell further than she thought she would when the bed moved 7 1/2".

If you believe suicide then how does she get over the railing and how does she injure her neck twice?

Again, in leaning over the rail, Rebecca's left thigh brushed away the dust from the iron railing. Her toe prints are pointing right, she leans toward her left side and falls. No momentum required. Rebecca may have wrapped the tshirt around her neck in an effort to keep her neck from severely snapping then stuffed it in her mouth so she could not scream, and also so that her tongue would not protrude from her mouth from the hanging.

MOO and subject to change without notice

 

[time]

"The dog bone was not a piece of work-out equipment; rather it most likely was Ocean's chew toy. Rebecca may have knocked herself in the head with it and screamed aloud in frustration at the drastic turn her life had taken when Maxie landed on the first floor with irreparable brain damage."

Uhm, NO, I don't think so. :waitasec:

 

[Zinn]

"The dog bone was not a piece of work-out equipment; rather it most likely was Ocean's chew toy. Rebecca may have knocked herself in the head with it and screamed aloud in frustration at the drastic turn her life had taken when Maxie landed on the first floor with irreparable brain damage."

Uhm, NO, I don't think so. :waitasec:

I have also wondered if the Kong bone was used as weapon against Rebecca, given its placement near the knives, and given NR's comments that she felt Rebecca lied about the dog's involvement in Max's accident.

All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[inthedark14]

"The dog bone was not a piece of work-out equipment; rather it most likely was Ocean's chew toy. Rebecca may have knocked herself in the head with it and screamed aloud in frustration at the drastic turn her life had taken when Maxie landed on the first floor with irreparable brain damage."

Uhm, NO, I don't think so. :waitasec:

I agree time. Unless of course someone thinks that the "mixed" "unidentifiable" DNA found on RZ and under her finger nails was canine DNA from the bone. Also I'm sure she'd scream "HELP" (as heard by neighbors) while pummeling herself in frustration to cause four separate contusions, right? :facepalm:

Sigh.

Always MOO

 

[Gilgamesh]

"The dog bone was not a piece of work-out equipment; rather it most likely was Ocean's chew toy. Rebecca may have knocked herself in the head with it and screamed aloud in frustration at the drastic turn her life had taken when Maxie landed on the first floor with irreparable brain damage."

Again, in leaning over the rail, Rebecca's left thigh brushed away the dust from the iron railing. Her toe prints are pointing right, she leans toward her left side and falls. No momentum required. Rebecca may have wrapped the tshirt around her neck in an effort to keep her neck from severely snapping then stuffed it in her mouth so she could not scream, and also so that her tongue would not protrude from her mouth from the hanging.

All the while, she was bound, hands behind back and feet and ankles tied together.....

You have every right to your opinion. If you take a moment to read both those ideas, do you see how absurd it sounds? Maybe not, since it is what you believe. To ME, however, it sounds completely A B S U R D. Shockingly so.

 

[inthedark14]

I have also wondered if the Kong bone was used as weapon against Rebecca, given its placement near the knives, and given NR's comments that she felt Rebecca lied about the dog's involvement in Max's accident.

All of the above is just my opinion.

I've also always wondered if that was the only dog toy in the room. My pup tends to have most of her toys in the same general area. I've also wondered about the dog bone being used as a weapon. My puppy princess is delicate and only uses the regular sized or "puppy" Kong thingys for treats (you put them inside and the dog has to figure out how to get them out). But we've looked at the more "tough" Kong toys--they are very, very dense and heavy. The come in all shapes and sizes.

ALWAYS MOO

 

[inthedark14]

"The dog bone was not a piece of work-out equipment; rather it most likely was Ocean's chew toy. Rebecca may have knocked herself in the head with it and screamed aloud in frustration at the drastic turn her life had taken when Maxie landed on the first floor with irreparable brain damage."

Again, in leaning over the rail, Rebecca's left thigh brushed away the dust from the iron railing. Her toe prints are pointing right, she leans toward her left side and falls. No momentum required. Rebecca may have wrapped the tshirt around her neck in an effort to keep her neck from severely snapping then stuffed it in her mouth so she could not scream, and also so that her tongue would not protrude from her mouth from the hanging.

All the while, she was bound, hands behind back and feet and ankles tied together.....

You have every right to your opinion. If you take a moment to read both those ideas, do you see how absurd it sounds? Maybe not, since it is what you believe. To ME, however, it sounds completely absurd. Shockingly so.

Thanks Gilgamesh for another great point. Also, how could someone as small as RZ go over the railing on her thigh, would she even be tall enough to do so? And in doing so, wouldn't she have left far more of an imprint than a single toe print? Or if she managed that feat, wouldn't she have left a drag mark or two as well? I'm no good with the diagrams, perhaps cynic or one of the other lovely posters who are great at those things could help?

I know we've rehashed this several times, but it doesn't hurt to look at another point of view. As you say, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course.

Always MOO