Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #14

[Deleted member 352484]

I trust the United States and it's constitution and it's people to make sure there is a check on Donald Trump (from your link). JMO

Oh my. The Russian dossier type smears only work in the echo chambers of those against Trump trying to up the agitation against him. Most Americans know better.

 

[Simply Southern]

The thing is the European countries see it very differently. They know his country are the victims. They know he was ambushed at the White House. They only want a peace deal IF its long lasting otherwise we will be back here in a year's time. Putin can not be trusted. Nor can Trump come to that. You said at least come to the table and talk about a peace agreement. What the one he was not invited to?? Trump has made it clear as day he does not think Ukraine needs to be involved in talks.

He does not war. He wants peace. He has made very plain.

He has a negotiation team.

Israel is trying to negotiate the return of hostages. The prime minister of Israel is not at the negotiation table, his team is. They will absolutely negotiate the best deal they can get. They want the hostages alive and those not alive. They are willing to make concessions. They recently released 1,000 prisoners/war criminals, per one body. That's a lot to give up, but they are thinking of the mothers and fathers the sisters and brothers of the hostages and those that are deceased. They are putting the people their citizens first.

This is the way it works. Nobody's cutting Zelensky out of negotiation. They're using their best negotiators. The people that can drive the hardest bargain, that can remain calm, without emotion, without yelling and screaming. The negotiators have nerves of steel. I've been an observer in some negotiations. Many times I wanted to get up and walk out of the room and tell them where to go, it's a good thing I'm not the negotiator but an observer. I learned a lot and I think I'm a better negotiator, I certainly try to be better and seeing the other side of everything.

Moo

 

[LibraStarr]

She did not say that at all...but unlike us she is Part Ukranian..it’s in her blood. She obviously worries about Zelensky/

It’s always striking when those far removed from a conflict feel entitled to tell those living it how they should feel or what they should accept. There’s a level of detachment that makes it easy to talk about ‘compromise’ as if it’s just a simple exchange, rather than a matter of survival. The people most affected by this war understand the stakes better than anyone else. Dismissing their perspective in favor of a more comfortable narrative isn’t a call for peace—it’s a refusal to engage with reality.

IMO

 

[Marysmith]

He has a negotiation team.

Israel is trying to negotiate the return of hostages. The prime minister of Israel is not at the negotiation table, his team is. They will absolutely negotiate the best deal they can get. They want the hostages alive and those not alive. They are willing to make concessions. They recently released 1,000 prisoners/war criminals, per one body. That's a lot to give up, but they are thinking of the mothers and fathers the sisters and brothers of the hostages and those that are deceased. They are putting the people their citizens first.

This is the way it works. Nobody's cutting Zelensky out of negotiation. They're using their best negotiators. The people that can drive the hardest bargain, that can remain calm, without emotion, without yelling and screaming. The negotiators have nerves of steel. I've been an observer in some negotiations. Many times I wanted to get up and walk out of the room and tell them where to go, it's a good thing I'm not the negotiator but an observer. I learned a lot and I think I'm a better negotiator, I certainly try to be better and seeing the other side of everything.

Moo

Respectfully there are many differences between Israel and Ukraine, including financially. I would not expect a country like Ukraine to have a team of negotiators. I would actually be shocked if Zelensky was not personally involved in them.
In this logic it would make no sense for Trump and Vance to be personally involved, lol.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Zelensky is responsible?? seriously?? did he invade his own country and start slaughtering them? Think that was Putin tbh.

How did he try and provoke Trump?? by breathing??

Btw..he IS supporting the killing of Ukrainians because due to his choices...this has escalated.

So much this! The amount of cognitive dissonance in the US is unreal. It's like telling a battered wife to go back to her abusive husband and "make peace" so she won't be hurt any longer. My advice to that battered woman is to fight like hell and recruit as many good guys as you can to fight right along side you because that's the only language a bully speaks.

MOO.

 

[Vern]

"Source"....always unknown. I'll wait to hear it from our defense secretary.

This doesn't track, DOD hosted a large delegation of UK military leaders this week. We rolled out the red carpet and all our pageantry. They had meetings for an entire day. They spoke to the press from the meeting room, granny and full uniform.

I don't believe we can go to all that trouble if we were dumping Europe. Why are we getting this first hand from Ukraine? The Biden administration probably did not make plans into 2026. The Trump team has been on board since January 21 and we did not have a DOD secretary until several weeks after. I think all countries involved in the Ukraine war, will need to reevaluate plans depending on the outcome of Ukraine.

I ain't buying this... Until I hear it from DOD and Hegseth is very transparent.

Moo

Miitary personnel are apolitical. They will always act accordingly when in official meetings.

That doesn't mean we all agree. Fact (experience).

Source: Our Oathes.

And, America's happens to be to the actual Constitution, vice a mere mortal man.

.

 

[branmuffin]

It seems he UK had NO intentions of using tax payer money.

Why would anyone expect the US to continue to use US tax payer money, when they don't use their own taxpayer money? A new low for UK.
Moo

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/03/06/how-europe-could-seize-frozen-russian-assets-to-fund-ukraine.html

.....

At the EU Foreign Affairs Council meeting at the end of February, Kallas stated that work on reaching an asset seizure agreement was “ongoing” and that “eventually, especially in the situation where we are right now, we all come to the conclusion that our taxpayers should not be the ones who are paying for this. It should come from the country that destroys Ukraine, which is Russia.”

Also toward the end of last month, U.K. foreign minister David Lammy told the British parliament that “Europe has to act quickly, and I believe we should move from freezing assets to seizing assets.” Estonia and Poland have also expressed support to seize assets.

Posted previously by @SouthAussie

The US has used frozen assets, too.

Tariffs yes, Tariffs no, Tariffs yes again.

All of this kind of thing I think is to keep Trump the centre of attention, and always in the news.

It's to keep everybody off balance.

 

[Arkay]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

This war was begun by the murderous, autocratic dictator Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, and will only end when/if he says “nyet” and withdraws his troops. Russia is a one-man government and Putin is the Czar.

I’ve always had some mixed emotions about Ukraine because that is the nation responsible for Babi Yar, in which the Nazis murdered as many Jews as possible and were aided and abetted by the Ukrainian populace. Also, which I’ve mentioned before, the people who hung my great-grandfather from a tree because he was Jewish, and which caused my grandfather as a young man to have to escape by ship to NYC.

That was during the reign of Nicholas II.

The present day Ukranians voted for a Jewish president in Zelenskyy, so clearly they are not the same as their great-grandparents.

Since the war in Ukraine began, I and most of the people I know have been supportive of Ukraine. We’ve all donated to them, worn blue and yellow to fundraisers etc. My neighborhood has many refugees from the former U.S.S.R living here who fled the Soviet Union where they were persecuted.

I am still furious at some of the votes present-day Ukraine has cast at the U.N., but I support the people and Zelenskyy.

I’ve been voting since I turned 18 and am now 67. In the last three elections I wrote in names that were not on the ballot because I am not a fan of Trump nor any of his opponents.

Yet, my expectations for ANY president of the United States of America would be that we would staunchly support a democratic ally over a dictatorship.

Putin has been in power since 1999, as president or temporarily as Prime Minister. In this time he has successfully caused the deaths or imprisonment of a multitude of people who have gone against him.

Reading Natan Sharansky’s book, (Fear No Evil), or Navalny’s memoir, (Patriot: A Memoir) or Solzhenitsyn’s memoir (The Gulag Archipelago) gives incredible insight into the cruelty of the Soviet regime and now Putin’s.

One of the most affecting letters I’ve ever read was Navalny's to Sharansky before Navalny was murdered in a Siberian prison, asking for advice on how Sharansky survived his own long imprisonment in the U.S.S.R.

IMO as an American who truly loves my country, how can we shrug off this aggression against a sovereign nation, by a nation determined to rearrange the geopolitical landscape according to the wishes of one all-powerful leader of an enemy nation, Russia?

In my opinion this is heinous.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

"moving from confrontation to greater dialogue"

Zelensky and the warhawks are stuck on confrontation, hence the continuing death and destruction.

Good article

https://www.arabnews.com/node/2592413

I actually think that's a terribly biased article. The narrative has changed here, but the facts haven't. The facts are that Russia invaded Ukraine. They I N V A D E D. That is not a word of peace. That is not a word of non-confrontation. That is a word of violence. To now blame Ukraine for fighting back against an invasion that is ongoing is victim-blaming to the nth degree. It's essentially saying that no country has the right to defend itself from another country's illegal invasion and slaughter of its citizens.

I understand why some are trying so hard to flip the narrative, calling Ukraine and all its supporters war-mongers who don't want peace essentially. But just because they try to flip the narrative doesn't mean everyone else in the world has suddenly developed a dissociative amnesia where they've forgotten who the real murderer and war-monger is in this equation. It sure as hell isn't Zelensky.

MOO.

 

[UK Girl]

I didn't mean it offensively. I am truly interested in what those that support continuing the war are expecting as an outcome. I worry too and I'm not Ukrainian. I pray every night and sometimes several times a day for those in Israel and in Ukraine.

Do they believe Ukraine will win?
How long would it take Ukraine to win against Russia?


I'm interested in those thoughts. So many want the war to continue, I think it's important to know why. I want to see the other side, others viewpoint.

I'm expressed mine. I have war PTSD, truly. I was nervous wreck my entire childhood, especially if the phone rang late at night it was never ever good news. Because of my experiences, the trauma of death at an early age, for so many that I loved, has made me hate war.

Moo

Who wants the war to continue? not many I suspect. They do however want a long lasting peace.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

The EU had three years to come up with a plan and set up a meeting with Putin.
Do they have a plan now? It's been a week and two large summits since Oval office Friday. Have the meaningful conversations produced a working document?

The WTO is a trade and commerce organization. This is not in their wheelhouse.

Politicians move at a snail's pace. Businessman move at lightning speed.
Moo

What would be the point in trying to negotiate with Putin? He has made it clear repeatedly that his objectives haven't changed, he will not concede a thing. Trying to get him to actually negotiate terms, rather than laying out what he wants and saying there is no changing his demands, is like banging your head against a brick wall, rather like this thread, except banging your head against a brick wall is actually more productive because at least you'll leave with something, even if it is just a headache!.

There is no negotiating with Putin, I don't understand why anyone thinks there is! Trump can no sooner negotiate with him than he could big foot, all he can do is bully Ukraine into giving Putin what he wants, and maybe getting a temporary ceasefire out of it, but we all know that it will only ever be temporary, Putin will regroup and he will invade again.

Trump could very well use the opportunity of a temporary ceasefire to grandstand and say he ended the war, but that's all it would be, and when Putin invades again, Trump will find another way to blame Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian people.

The only way the war ends permanently is with Ukraines complete surrender. That isn't peace.

 

[Vern]

Absolutely. Appealing to whatever that means, the "worlds press" certainly carries no authority here in the U.S.

I didn't see anyone claim that the "worlds press" had any authority in the US or anywhere for that matter.

But, if one truely wants to see what the world thinks about "the Leader of the Free World" (a title bestowed upon him by ... all those claiming he is the only one "leading the world to peace" in this case)

Then one should get out more and actually see what the world has to say about opinions of those "in the Free World".

Heck, even in the US that opinion is firmly divided right down the middle regardless of the "world press".

The "world press" is not the problem. The problem is a mere mortal man who currently lives in a big white house.

.

 

[LoveyG]

Red carpet and Pageantry? really? Starmer did not get that and Zelensky definetly did not.

"Source"....always unknown. I'll wait to hear it from our defense secretary.

This doesn't track, DOD hosted a large delegation of UK military leaders this week. We rolled out the red carpet and all our pageantry. They had meetings for an entire day. They spoke to the press from the meeting room, granny and full uniform.

I don't believe we can go to all that trouble if we were dumping Europe. Why are we getting this first hand from Ukraine? The Biden administration probably did not make plans into 2026. The Trump team has been on board since January 21 and we did not have a DOD secretary until several weeks after. I think all countries involved in the Ukraine war, will need to reevaluate plans depending on the outcome of Ukraine.

I ain't buying this... Until I hear it from DOD and Hegseth is very transparent.

Moo

"I ain't buying this... Until I hear it from DOD and Hegseth is very transparent."

In vino veritas

 

[UK Girl]

Absolutely. Appealing to whatever that means, the "worlds press" certainly carries no authority here in the U.S.

Tbh it is apparent that a lot of people DO read the worlds press in America which means they have a more rounded view of whats going on and not just taking the word of one person and his cronies.

 

[Deleted member 352484]

The only way the war ends permanently is with Ukraines complete surrender. That isn't peace.

We have spent enough resources on this conflict and have given an ultimatum. A peace deal or we're out. It's pretty simple. Ukraine does not have to agree, they can go on fighting with the support of their other allies.

Ukraine is not a priority for the US especially as we are pivoting to address the rising power and influence of China.

 

[Stella123]

So many things happening in the US are unbelievable and hard to process. As mentioned in that video. I am reminded of the French Senator's speech, who said - what do we do? We just accept it.

The Uk politician in the video described it as a kind of mourning process, where you go through denial, anger etc. The final stage of the grieving process is acceptance.

Things are very very dangerous IMO. Much more dangerous than a war on the ground MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

He is negotiating... that's what this is all about.
I'm shocked that anyone thinks he wants war. He wants it to end obviously but in a way that will benefit his country and not make things harder in the end... doesn’t that make sense? I'm not sure why this is being portrayed differently or why anyone thinks this..

Because victim-blaming is the only way for US leaders to win the optics war on the global stage.

JMO.

 

[Vern]

"Shocking Pentagon DEI Purge" - the US really is becoming Putin's Russia IMO - I am very sorry. MOO The erasion of history starts the brainwashing JMO I mean no disrespect to American people - and I hope some people can fight all this stuff going on and bring some sanity back. JMO

"As many as 100,000 photos and online posts including a female Medal of Honor recipient, Black soldiers and people whose last name is ‘Gay’ may be axed in the diversity eradication ordered by Donald Trump"

This includes a photo of the plane Enola Gay - because of the word "gay". MOO

"References to a World War II Medal of Honor recipient, the Enola Gay aircraft that dropped an atomic bomb on Japan, and the first women to pass Marine infantry training are among the tens of thousands of photos and online posts marked for deletion as the Defense Department works to purge DEI content, diversity, equity and inclusion content, according to a shocking database obtained by The Associated Press."

Enola Gay, women, Blacks being erased in shocking Pentagon DEI file purge

As many as 100,000 photos and online posts including a female Medal of Honor recipient, Black soldiers and people whose last name is ‘Gay’ may be axed in the diversity eradication ordered by Donald Trump

www.independent.co.uk

Straight outta Orwell's 1984

.

 

[Stella123]

"I ain't buying this... Until I hear it from DOD and Hegseth is very transparent."

In vino veritas

You can hear this from Hegseth @Simply Southern

"Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth had given the military until Wednesday to remove content that highlights diversity efforts in its ranks following President Donald Trump’s executive order ending those programs across the federal government."

Enola Gay, women, Blacks being erased in shocking Pentagon DEI file purge

As many as 100,000 photos and online posts including a female Medal of Honor recipient, Black soldiers and people whose last name is ‘Gay’ may be axed in the diversity eradication ordered by Donald Trump

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Deleted member 352484]

So many things happening in the US are unbelievable and hard to process. As mentioned in that video. I am reminded of the French Senator's speech, who said - what do we do? We just accept it

JD Vance said it. There is a growing chasm between American and European values and it goes beyond free speech. There is a “national interest” chasm where Europe is focussed on itself and America is focused on China. We have limited resources. We can't fund European wars while China is looking on the horizon.