scotland yard investigation

[SapphireSteel]

Maybe the fact that he was booted off the case and harbors bitterness. ?

So the Lead Investigator turns really, really nasty, after a long and distinguished career, and then makes up and publishes a book full of lies?

Really?

The book has been unofficially accepted as a faithful retelling of the investigation. The PJ have never disputed a word, and the attempt to take it off the shelves failed.

Now they have to somehow prove what he said is libellous, ie, false. What they once seemed so adamant about is apparently now not so important, because they've offered Amaral an out-of-court settlement, of their own court action!

That was an opportunity for a cash grab right there which he rejected...a greedy man would have taken it and run.

GA fervently wants to see them testify in a courtroom. He's not alone there.

I can't wait.

opcorn:

.

 

[gord]

The DNA should not exist in the first place.

If it was accidental transfer, why didn't the dogs yowl all over 5a? All over the crèche where the poor little things spent all their time?

Nope, Eddie alerted at Cadaver, as trained. Cadaver from a deceased person whos DNA was consistent with Madeleines, cadaver which only existed on Kate's clothing, in the Renault, in 5A, and most importantly on cuddle cat.

They only have the DNA available to test because the dogs located it...or more correctly, they located the death scent and science found the DNA at the alert sites.

If DNA is so easily transferred, why didn't they find any foreign DNA from the perp?

You can focus on down to the vagaries of DNA (only 15/19...is that all? please) all you like but the simple fact is - it should not be there.

:stormingmad:

sorry if you cant understand the report from the FSS the explained in detail that the sample of DNA was a mix of 3 to 5 people then there is no point continuing on with the conversation

OF course they would be DNA there ?????? it would come from everyday use of the people using the car - it was a hire car fro goodness sake

 

[SapphireSteel]

sorry if you cant understand the report from the FSS the explained in detail that the sample of DNA was a mix of 3 to 5 people then there is no point continuing on with the conversation

OF course they would be DNA there ?????? it would come from everyday use of the people using the car - it was a hire car fro goodness sake

Explain the cadaver then...I can't.

 

[viralis]

"Ten vehicles were screened in an underground multi storey car park at Portimao. The vehicles, of which I did not know the owner details, were parked on an empty floor with 20-30 feet between each. The vehicle placement video recording and management of the process was conducted by the PJ. The EVRD was then tasked to search the area. When passing a vehicle I now know to be hired and in the possession of the McCann family, the dog's behaviour changed substantially. This then produced an alert indication at the lower part of the drivers door where the dog was biting and barking. I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door."

Martin Grime's official report from the PJ case files

- as a car guy, I happen to recognise that the seals are often 'leakiest' around the bottom of a door - backing up why the dog would focus here (as well as being at dog height) just thought this was interesting. I know this is super duper circumstantial but there are a lot of circumstantial parts of evidence around this case that all seem to collect and point only one way. I hope we are proven (proven) wrong at some point.

 

[gord]

Explain the cadaver then...I can't.

as we have discussed ad nauseam and as have numerous people all over the forums - the fact is that you cannot find someone guilty of such a serious crime on this alone. The dogs are not 100% infallible - they are part of the process and the handler was quick to say that all alerts must be backed up by scientific forensics .

again I go back to the other side of the coin - evidence of :

where the body was hidden
who it was hidden by
how long it was hidden for
who moved it
how was it moved
when was it moved
where the body was disposed off
who was involved and motive

I have yet to see any theories on this that make any sense . Why is there not a shred of any forensics of a dead body being stashed in and around the town for weeks and then being moved by the main suspects ??

Do we know where else the cadaver dogs were used ?? I cant believe they were used in the appt and car. The " hiding " place must after weeks been so full of scent that a human would detect it.


Until these questions are answered then I remain sceptic on the mcanns involvement - which is precisely the view point of SY who have access to a lot more info than the likes of you or I

 

[SapphireSteel]

as we have discussed ad nauseam and as have numerous people all over the forums - the fact is that you cannot find someone guilty of such a serious crime on this alone. The dogs are not 100% infallible - they are part of the process and the handler was quick to say that all alerts must be backed up by scientific forensics .

again I go back to the other side of the coin - evidence of :

where the body was hidden
who it was hidden by
how long it was hidden for
who moved it
how was it moved
when was it moved
where the body was disposed off
who was involved and motive

I have yet to see any theories on this that make any sense . Why is there not a shred of any forensics of a dead body being stashed in and around the town for weeks and then being moved by the main suspects ??

Do we know where else the cadaver dogs were used ?? I cant believe they were used in the appt and car. The " hiding " place must after weeks been so full of scent that a human would detect it.


Until these questions are answered then I remain sceptic on the mcanns involvement - which is precisely the view point of SY who have access to a lot more info than the likes of you or I

:lol:

I'm sorry, SY pretty much lost all credibility for me when Andy Redmond appeared on morning tv to chirpily announce he thought that Madeleine was still alive.

Based on....what, exactly, Andy?

I have never seen such unprofessional conduct in my life, from LE. LE aren't in the business of speculating about an open case on morning tv.

:banghead:

 

[SapphireSteel]

The dogs remain an invaluable investigative tool in every other case apart from Madeleines.

This is because Team McCann have systematically gone about discrediting everyone who isn't part of Team McCann.

UNTIL this crew consent to a reconstruction of the evening, questions will remain about timing, who went where, who was in the apartment etc.

I love how cadaver scent, DNA consistent with Madeleine in places it shouldn't have been, a sighting of Gerry carrying her away, the open/closed shutters, the lies which have been proven, all dismissed because no one thinks the McCann could possibly have hidden their daughter.

We KNOW statistically at least, they are the perps.

Nothing has been found to indicate an intruder. Zero...pretty amazing considering this guy is supposed to have stalked and watched the family for days, all unseen.

Again, ad nauseam, to borrow a term - please direct me to the evidence which points to an intruder.

 

[Cherry]

I agree they are both the only perps this case. It's almost as if the uk refuses to believe the golden rule in an investigation.

 

[K9Snoop]

Do we know where else the cadaver dogs were used ?? I cant believe they were used in the appt and car. The " hiding " place must after weeks been so full of scent that a human would detect it.

The dogs were used in the apartment and on the vehicle.

As far as the hiding place..... You would be surprised, at times, how close you have to actually stand next to a body to smell it. I've handed pieces to people who either described "no odor" or an odor that you would not associate to something deceased such as "vanilla ice cream".

Initailly, there is little odor, then there is a bloom, which later subsides to very little again. It really depends on the stage of decomp, what bacterial action is occuring, and how wrapped up the body is.

 

[Clutchbag]

Originally Posted by gord
Do we know where else the cadaver dogs were used ?? I cant believe they were used in the appt and car. The " hiding " place must after weeks been so full of scent that a human would detect it.
-------


but the dogs were not sent in to find a body or remains, three mnths later! but remnant scent if a body had lain there before removal....obviously people renting these places out after will have noticed human remains!

the cadaver dog was sent into the two apartments the mccanns stayed in as well as their later villa, the apartments of their holiday friends, robert murats villa, and of course a bunch of cars, and the blood dog was only sent in anywhere if the cadaver dog alerted, in order to find blood forensics

Of course the cadaver dog was also used to search in outside environments for a body on the beaches, derelict buldings, the roads surrounding the area, wasteland, etc.

And of course the cadaver dog alerted no where in all these places except for

The parents bedroom
The living room, possibly blood
The outside vernandah
The flower garden at the bottom, weak signal
The car, possibly blood
Kate Mccanns two clothng items and a childs t shirt
The soft toy Madeleine had

 

[gord]

Originally Posted by gord
Do we know where else the cadaver dogs were used ?? I cant believe they were used in the appt and car. The " hiding " place must after weeks been so full of scent that a human would detect it.
-------


but the dogs were not sent in to find a body or remains, three mnths later! but remnant scent if a body had lain there before removal....obviously people renting these places out after will have noticed human remains!

the cadaver dog was sent into the two apartments the mccanns stayed in as well as their later villa, the apartments of their holiday friends, robert murats villa, and of course a bunch of cars, and the blood dog was only sent in anywhere if the cadaver dog alerted, in order to find blood forensics

Of course the cadaver dog was also used to search in outside environments for a body on the beaches, derelict buldings, the roads surrounding the area, wasteland, etc.

And of course the cadaver dog alerted no where in all these places except for

The parents bedroom
The living room, possibly blood
The outside vernandah
The flower garden at the bottom, weak signal
The car, possibly blood
Kate Mccanns two clothng items and a childs t shirt
The soft toy Madeleine had

I am not disputing that these sites were searched or the alerts happened .

If there was that amount of alerts then Maddie's dead body must have lain for enough time to leave a cadaver in the bedroom , veranda , flower bed etc etc

Yet they find no forensics atall ?? nothing - no DNA no blood nothing that can be used to further the case

also I cant believe that having the dogs in the town they would not be used elsewhere like the church or places that Amaral suspected Maddies body to have been hidden ( this was his theory by then ) - he thought a freezer was in place - surely to goodness he must have had a few ideas of where ? How difficult was it in a small place like this to try and narrow down the possible places and use the dogs ?

Has no one else in PDL ever died ?? Has anyone in Murat's house never died ? Could both dogs be picking up the same blood scent - ? we just don't know

We know from Jersey where there was alerts but no body ( s ) that other factors can come into play - hence we need to have other forensics that will build the case.

what do you suggest that they be arrested and tried purely on the dogs evidence ?

so the case stalled 7 years ago and will remain like this until there is something more concrete

 

[Clutchbag]

I am not disputing that these sites were searched or the alerts happened .

If there was that amount of alerts then Maddie's dead body must have lain for enough time to leave a cadaver in the bedroom , veranda , flower bed etc etc

There is no clear evidence of hw long a body let alone a childs body has to start decomposing before a cadaver dog can pick up the scent


Yet they find no forensics atall ?? nothing - no DNA no blood nothing that can be used to further the case
They found blood via the blood dog as she alerts to nothing except blood and partial dna matches to madeleine were found


also I cant believe that having the dogs in the town they would not be used elsewhere like the church or places that Amaral suspected Maddies body to have been hidden ( this was his theory by then ) - he thought a freezer was in place - surely to goodness he must have had a few ideas of where ? How difficult was it in a small place like this to try and narrow down the possible places and use the dogs ?

Dont know about that

Has no one else in PDL ever died ?? Has anyone in Murat's house never died ? Could both dogs be picking up the same blood scent - ? we just don't know


No one would ask if anyone had ever died anywhere if the cadaver dog had not alerted, obviously people die everywhere all the time, the only place the dog alerted was in the mccanns flat and belongings, the flat history was checked, no one had died there, as for your theory that eddie the cadaver dog may have been reacting to blood only, absolutely not so, because every ne of his alerts was gone over by keela the blood dog and she failed to alert in most places he alerted to...so no, not blood


We know from Jersey where there was alerts but no body ( s ) that other factors can come into play - hence we need to have other forensics that will build the case.

Bones and milk teeth were found


what do you suggest that they be arrested and tried purely on the dogs evidence ?

No, and never suggested it but its JUSTIFIABLE suspicion

so the case stalled 7 years ago and will remain like this until there is something more concrete

yes most probably

answers in bold

 

[SapphireSteel]

I am not disputing that these sites were searched or the alerts happened .

If there was that amount of alerts then Maddie's dead body must have lain for enough time to leave a cadaver in the bedroom , veranda , flower bed etc etc

Yet they find no forensics atall ?? nothing - no DNA no blood nothing that can be used to further the case

also I cant believe that having the dogs in the town they would not be used elsewhere like the church or places that Amaral suspected Maddies body to have been hidden ( this was his theory by then ) - he thought a freezer was in place - surely to goodness he must have had a few ideas of where ? How difficult was it in a small place like this to try and narrow down the possible places and use the dogs ?

Has no one else in PDL ever died ?? Has anyone in Murat's house never died ? Could both dogs be picking up the same blood scent - ? we just don't know

We know from Jersey where there was alerts but no body ( s ) that other factors can come into play - hence we need to have other forensics that will build the case.

what do you suggest that they be arrested and tried purely on the dogs evidence ?

so the case stalled 7 years ago and will remain like this until there is something more concrete

The above has all been explained and gone over again "ad nauseam". :banghead:

There was DNA consistent with Madeleine's at the alert sites - I have no idea how this has morphed into "no forensics atall" (sic) which is clearly incorrect;
The dogs and original suspicions were brought by the UK POLICE not the Portugese;
The English police "developed evidence" to justify the dogs, it has never been publicly revealed what that evidence was;
Gerry was seen carrying M away;
The litigious and money grabbing behaviour of K & G who to this day refuse any responsibility for their daughter disappearing;

And on, and on....as you say, ad nauseam.

It's fairly clear that nothing short of a film clip of Gerry carrying his deceased daughter will be enough evidence for some...and even then they'd yell it was false, doctored, made up by the spiteful policeman who's career they took.

:stormingmad:

:moo:

BTW, the "something more concrete" they need to proceed with the investigation is Tapas Cooperation. Which is not forthcoming.

 

[gord]

The above has all been explained and gone over again "ad nauseam". :banghead:

There was DNA consistent with Madeleine's at the alert sites - I have no idea how this has morphed into "no forensics atall" (sic) which is clearly incorrect;
The dogs and original suspicions were brought by the UK POLICE not the Portugese;
The English police "developed evidence" to justify the dogs, it has never been publicly revealed what that evidence was;
Gerry was seen carrying M away;
The litigious and money grabbing behaviour of K & G who to this day refuse any responsibility for their daughter disappearing;

And on, and on....as you say, ad nauseam.

It's fairly clear that nothing short of a film clip of Gerry carrying his deceased daughter will be enough evidence for some...and even then they'd yell it was false, doctored, made up by the spiteful policeman who's career they took.

:stormingmad:

:moo:

BTW, the "something more concrete" they need to proceed with the investigation is Tapas Cooperation. Which is not forthcoming.

again they did not find any forensics that would give them a break in the case - you can repeat it as much as you want but it doesn't make it right or change any - of course DNA can be consistent - it is probably consistent with me as well as I am Scottish / Glasgow heritage - both her siblings and parents possessed DNA that is consistent with Maddie - your argument doesn't make any sense

The PJ were and always were leading the case - they used the expertise of the FSS and also Eddie and Keela to try and spin in into something to suit your point again doesn't make sense - Amaral thought he had the evidence with the dogs - that was where it went wrong when the forensics found no smoking gun


Gerry was NOT seen running away with Maddie that is just plain wrong. Smith never ID his face - he went back 3 months later after seeing the way he carried the twins on TV and said it looked the same - his family were not sure any way and when pressed he said it was about 60% sure - that is a world away from giving an ID

It is pretty clear that you dislike the McCann's but that doesn' tmake them guilty -

I am still waiting for some sort of theory on if they did dispose how it all happened - If you are so sure that they " dunnit " you must have a theory that brings in all the threads of alerts , hiding places , freezers etc look forward to hearing it

 

[SapphireSteel]

again they did not find any forensics that would give them a break in the case - you can repeat it as much as you want but it doesn't make it right or change any - of course DNA can be consistent - it is probably consistent with me as well as I am Scottish / Glasgow heritage - both her siblings and parents possessed DNA that is consistent with Maddie - your argument doesn't make any sense

The PJ were and always were leading the case - they used the expertise of the FSS and also Eddie and Keela to try and spin in into something to suit your point again doesn't make sense - Amaral thought he had the evidence with the dogs - that was where it went wrong when the forensics found no smoking gun


Gerry was NOT seen running away with Maddie that is just plain wrong. Smith never ID his face - he went back 3 months later after seeing the way he carried the twins on TV and said it looked the same - his family were not sure any way and when pressed he said it was about 60% sure - that is a world away from giving an ID

It is pretty clear that you dislike the McCann's but that doesn' tmake them guilty -

I am still waiting for some sort of theory on if they did dispose how it all happened - If you are so sure that they " dunnit " you must have a theory that brings in all the threads of alerts , hiding places , freezers etc look forward to hearing it

Excellent.

I'll share it with you, just as soon as you give me your theory that accounts for how an intruder got in and out of a resort with a child, without leaving a single fragment of DNA, hair, fingerprints, and without being seen by anyone at all but especially by Gerry, who he allegedly walked straight past.

:seeya:

 

[gord]

Excellent.

I'll share it with you, just as soon as you give me your theory that accounts for how an intruder got in and out of a resort with a child, without leaving a single fragment of DNA, hair, fingerprints, and without being seen by anyone at all but especially by Gerry, who he allegedly walked straight past.

:seeya:

Hey I have put down a theory many times here - but I will do it again

Ok this was planned ie they had been watching they knew the checking routine -

two perps working together . This could even have been one person who had access to the flat - member of staff ex member of staff , contract cleaner ............

perp 1 enters flat straight after Gerry leaves from check through the Patio door ( unlocked ) he could have been hiding in the shadows inside the walls easily hidden

Enters bedroom all kids asleep - subdues maddie with Chloroform - opens window and hands her out to Perp 2 who then walks up the road to a parked car

perp 1 then either leaves via window or goes back to Patio door to check that they have not been noticed

They didn't have to walk past Gerry who was in the side street deep in convo with JW - perp 2 was walking on the main road adjacent

JT though was walking up the street and caught sight of perp 2 walking away - at the time thought nothing off it

They wore gloves had immediate access through unlocked door and knew how to use chloroform

They would have left no obvious clues - nil forensics and in any case as we know the crime scene was so full of people that some of the DNA they did find belonged to their own officers.

I reckon that this could have taken 5 minutes tops - twins fast asleep . If they made the car then they would have been in Spain within the hour


who knows - but this is possible - I don't know if it did happen this way - it is a theory that fits the known facts


look forward to hearing your theory about how the McCann's disposed of maddie in the time frame , how she died , where was hidden , how she was moved etc etc

 

[SapphireSteel]

Hey I have put down a theory many times here - but I will do it again

Ok this was planned ie they had been watching they knew the checking routine -

They can't have known the "checking routine" as there wasn't one. That night was the first night they created such an elaborate exercise.

two perps working together . This could even have been one person who had access to the flat - member of staff ex member of staff , contract cleaner ............

All staff were interviewed extensively and accounted for. Unlike the Tapas Crew.

perp 1 enters flat straight after Gerry leaves from check through the Patio door ( unlocked ) he could have been hiding in the shadows inside the walls easily hidden

So Perp 1 is hiding in the shadows, where's perp 2?

Enters bedroom all kids asleep - subdues maddie with Chloroform - opens window and hands her out to Perp 2 who then walks up the road to a parked car

Chloroform! :lol:

There were no traces of any chloroform, anywhere. Why would anyone need chloroform to subdue and carry away a 3 year old, especially if there's two perps to share the load?

perp 1 then either leaves via window or goes back to Patio door to check that they have not been noticed

So where's perp 2 again?

They didn't have to walk past Gerry who was in the side street deep in convo with JW - perp 2 was walking on the main road adjacent

They did have to walk past Gerry. Gerry was in the street, the "perp" was "seen" walking past that street by Tanner. The street was quiet and well lit, Jeremy, who Gerry was talking to at the time, confirmed that no one walked past.

JT though was walking up the street and caught sight of perp 2 walking away - at the time thought nothing off it

So wait a minute where's perp 1 gone? Still lurking in shadows, or opening shutters to climb out? Why would he climb through windows when the door was unlocked?

They wore gloves had immediate access through unlocked door and knew how to use chloroform

They would have left no obvious clues - nil forensics and in any case as we know the crime scene was so full of people that some of the DNA they did find belonged to their own officers.

None of this explains the cadaver in 5a...nor the garden bed, nor the Renault, nor Cuddle Cat, the last thing Madeleine handled.

I reckon that this could have taken 5 minutes tops - twins fast asleep . If they made the car then they would have been in Spain within the hour

What car? Where was it parked? Why did no one see it? Why did no one hear it starting up or driving off?

who knows - but this is possible - I don't know if it did happen this way - it is a theory that fits the known facts

No, it doesn't fit any "facts". It doesn't explain the dogs, the DNA, the sighting of Gerry carrying Madeleine.

look forward to hearing your theory about how the McCann's disposed of maddie in the time frame , how she died , where was hidden , how she was moved etc etc

You don't need to hear my theory here as it mirrors Amaral's exactly.

One further question - if this was all so well "planned" and took two perps to execute successfully - why haven't they repeated the experience?

If they were pedophiles themselves, one child is not nearly enough. Why not take all 3, or just the girls if that was their taste?

Indeed, why not one of the twins, who were tiny and far less likely to scream blue murder if carried out?

If they stole her to order, why have no other little children been stolen in Portugal?

Why hasn't this crime been repeated?

 

[CatFancier]

Stop the arguing please...

 

[CatFancier]

Stop the arguing please...

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24386130

Looking at cell phones to find more clues. This sounds promising to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. Auto correct has a mind of its own.