Separating FACT from fiction

[Tobiano8th]

great thread, i was not aware of the polygraph history. looks very bad on the R's.

did JR have enough medical training in the military to know that his daughter was dead if there had been an accident?.... i feel pretty strongly she died accidently, but i can't see parents not phoning 911 (unless they knew definitively she was already dead...... and even then i think 99% of parents phone 911)

 

[Safeguard]

Photos and testimonies don't always tell the truth.
Imo.

So.. You can see them doing all that other sick chit post death, but you can't see them not calling 911 because loving parents...?

 

[LietKynes]

So.. You can see them doing all that other sick chit post death, but you can't see them not calling 911 because loving parents...?

On the cruise ship --the staff and witnesses saw what happened immediately after the incident.
No need to call 911.
I stand by the fact that photos and testimonies can be embellished or used for an advantage.
Other cases have had FB and other social media that portrayed something else.
And I have been fooled into thinking the 'uploader' of the SM wanted to show a different side.

Wait--- Are we talking about the Ramsey's ?
The mother did call 911. Iirc.
I haven't followed JonBenet's case for a while !

 

[Linda7NJ]

On the cruise ship --the staff and witnesses saw what happened immediately after the incident.
No need to call 911.
I stand by the fact that photos and testimonies can be embellished or used for an advantage.
Other cases have had FB and other social media that portrayed something else.
And I have been fooled into thinking the 'uploader' of the SM wanted to show a different side.

Wait--- Are we talking about the Ramsey's ?
The mother did call 911. Iirc.
I haven't followed JonBenet's case for a while !

Patsy called to report a “kidnapping”, not an injured child.

 

[LietKynes]

Patsy called to report a “kidnapping”, not an injured child.

That's right, she did.

I seem to be having a conversation (that I didn't start ) on this thread brought over by another member from a different thread.
Will try to get the other poster to discuss this elsewhere as I haven't followed the JBR thread for some time.

 

[Safeguard]

That's right, she did.

I seem to be having a conversation (that I didn't start ) on this thread brought over by another member from a different thread.
Will try to get the other poster to discuss this elsewhere as I haven't followed the JBR thread for some time.

LietKynes and all...
My apologies, I must have had the quote still lodged in my text box without realizing it!
That post was directed towards Tobieno8th

 

[Tobiano8th]

sorry, when i said, i can't believe parents won't phone 911, i neglected to add "for ambulance". yes, they phoned for kidnapping................. and yes, i can not believe that they would then harm the child further for staging purposes. and my vague recollection is she might not have been dead during the cover-up acts.

so it's intruder (and they wrote that ransom note, which IMO is preposterous) or the ramseys did some really horrible stuff to cover up an accident?......... i don't find either theory remotely credible, but is there a 3rd alternative beyond intruder or ramsey? someone they knew?

on the neighbour hearing the scream, when was that? (too lazy to google)......... and a cynic would say, "something terrible and violent happened to this girl, so of course she screamed, but who/what was causing the scream?"..... of course, why didn't the ramseys hear it? but i'm sure a defense attorney and experts could easily explain that.

does this women stand firm on the scream? hearing stuff that wakes you up is pretty murky. most times i figure i imagined it. but a few times i'm certain i heard something.

can a young girl that age make a very loud, piercing scream?

JBR is like JFK/Oswald. no matter what your pet theory, it is going to be full of holes, or things that are very hard to believe possible.

 

[Safeguard]

d

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Since this thread is about separating fact from fiction; I have a question I hope someone can answer. BR stated that after his father had put him to bed with the flashlight, he then went back downstairs to “knock out” his legos Christmas gift in the living room. So my question is this: has anyone every mentioned the toy in the living room and if so what condition it was in?

 

[Userid]

Since this thread is about separating fact from fiction; I have a question I hope someone can answer. BR stated that after his father had put him to bed with the flashlight, he then went back downstairs to “knock out” his legos Christmas gift in the living room. So my question is this: has anyone every mentioned the toy in the living room and if so what condition it was in?

I think the better question would be, how didn't BR hear/see anything that night? This is a good question whether you are IDI or RDI. He said he was up at approximately the time when the murder would already be taking place. I know the living room is somewhat on the opposite end of the house, but still.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

I think the better question would be, how didn't BR hear/see anything that night? This is a good question whether you are IDI or RDI. He said he was up at approximately the time when the murder would already be taking place. I know the living room is somewhat on the opposite end of the house, but still.

The reason I ask this question is thus: it has been stated that JB would stomp on BR legos. The BDI theory is usually over the pineapple. But now we know that there was also grapes and cherries found during the autopsy of JB. Sure he could have gotten mad at the pineapple; but what about the legos? I do not recall ever reading anything more about the legos, anywhere. So I ask.
Yes, I am sure BR was awake that night, just like he was overheard on the 911 call the next morning. BR bedroom was located on top of the living room, one floor up.

 

[Userid]

The reason I ask this question is thus: it has been stated that JB would stomp on BR legos. The BDI theory is usually over the pineapple. But now we know that there was also grapes and cherries found during the autopsy of JB. Sure he could have gotten mad at the pineapple; but what about the legos? I do not recall ever reading anything more about the legos, anywhere. So I ask.
Yes, I am sure BR was awake that night, just like he was overheard on the 911 call the next morning. BR bedroom was located on top of the living room, one floor up.

Fair enough. If you're BDI, it's a good question. I don't have an answer, but admittedly, I'm not BDI.

The thing I have trouble reconciling though is, if BR was responsible, why would he admit he was up that night?

I'd like to know exactly when BR snuck downstairs -- what time, exactly. But we'll probably never know. Was he in the living room before the crime occurred, during, or after? I feel he was awake before, but then again, perhaps it was after; considering JBR still had remnants of a fruit cocktail (that she evidently ate at the Christmas party), in addition to the very last thing she ate, which was the pineapple.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Fair enough. If you're BDI, it's a good question. I don't have an answer, but admittedly, I'm not BDI.

The thing I have trouble reconciling though is, if BR was responsible, why would he admit he was up that night?

I'd like to know exactly when BR snuck downstairs -- what time, exactly. But we'll probably never know. Was he in the living room before the crime occurred, during, or after? I feel he was awake before, but then again, perhaps it was after; considering JBR still had remnants of a fruit cocktail (that she evidently ate at the Christmas party), in addition to the very last thing she ate, which was the pineapple.

BR has said he never woke up and then later recanted to after everyone was in bed he went back downstairs. Whomever murdered JB was angry enough at her to hit her over the head hard enough) liken it to dropping her from a 3 story building. I. E. Parents balcony. It was a RDI. I see no cause for PR to get so angry with JB over bed wetting. BR was also wetting the bed. JR while he could have been the molester in the household we don’t know. What we do know is that JB was habitually sexually molested. We also know that BR and JB played doctor and even told the housekeeper to mind their own business when caught. I believe both children were victims of sexual abuse. I think it is very unusual for siblings of such a young age to play doctor. Unless they are taught, children of this age are not that familiar with sexuality to this degree. It could have been JAR or grandpa P, or even PR that was the abuser. Although I find the later extremely hard to except. As for the fruit cocktail the Whites have not confirmed they served it at the Christmas party. But the pineapple was sourced to match to the rind coming from the R’s home. Also if you look at crime scene photos of the parents bed, one side of the covers weren’t pulled back nor was there an indentation in the pillow. BR has stated that a JB was awake when they arrived home. Reminds me of the Disney commercial where the kids can’t sleep because they are to excited. Everyone in the family tells one story and then another. If there is nothing to hide, then why?

 

[Userid]

BR has said he never woke up and then later recanted to after everyone was in bed he went back downstairs. Whomever murdered JB was angry enough at her to hit her over the head hard enough) liken it to dropping her from a 3 story building. I. E. Parents balcony. It was a RDI. I see no cause for PR to get so angry with JB over bed wetting. BR was also wetting the bed. JR while he could have been the molester in the household we don’t know. What we do know is that JB was habitually sexually molested. We also know that BR and JB played doctor and even told the housekeeper to mind their own business when caught. I believe both children were victims of sexual abuse. I think it is very unusual for siblings of such a young age to play doctor. Unless they are taught, children of this age are not that familiar with sexuality to this degree. It could have been JAR or grandpa P, or even PR that was the abuser. Although I find the later extremely hard to except. As for the fruit cocktail the Whites have not confirmed they served it at the Christmas party. But the pineapple was sourced to match to the rind coming from the R’s home. Also if you look at crime scene photos of the parents bed, one side of the covers weren’t pulled back nor was there an indentation in the pillow. BR has stated that a JB was awake when they arrived home. Reminds me of the Disney commercial where the kids can’t sleep because they are to excited. Everyone in the family tells one story and then another. If there is nothing to hide, then why?

To be fair, a few of these things have been brought into question. I'm not saying I disagree necessarily, but just cautioning that some of this is in question. There are conflicting reports that abuse was consistently taking place, if I recall correctly.

Also, it's been a while so perhaps I'm wrong, but fruit cocktail was served at the W's party. There is also no mention of the other fruit that was found inside the digestive tract, found in the fridge (except the pineapple).

PR had already had a spat with JBR about the clothes she was to wear to the W's party earlier that day. I'm not saying that gives her or any mother a reason to commit murder, but if you're introducing two siblings playing doctor as supposed evidence of murder, the fact PR had a fight about the clothing with JBR earlier would fall into a similar category. Such a category by the way, isn't convincing, in either case.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

I am not introducing two siblings playing doctor as supposed evidence of murder. As the medical examiner’s can attest to, JB was chronically vaginally abused. I would suggest however that a 6 and 9 year old playing doctor is not normal between siblings.

I have been studying this case since the beginning and I do not recall evidence of the Whites serving fruit cocktail at their Christmas party. Could you provide that information or knowledge there of? The fruit cocktail (grapes and cherries) could have come from a can. We do know that crab was served at the party which was a favorite of JB, which she did not consume.

What I am attesting to is that whoever hit JB in the head was over the top angry! Sure PR had a fight with JB over the cloths. Seems odd to me PR was all of a sudden in a murderous rampage when she couldn’t even tell her son not to whittle. Which leads me to this: ever wonder how the paint brush was broken. Perhaps it was whittled.

 

[dgfred]

Maybe a fall onto the tub, cabinet or toilet... so there are other possibilities besides a 'murderous rampage' you might want to consider.

 

[Userid]

I am not introducing two siblings playing doctor as supposed evidence of murder. As the medical examiner’s can attest to, JB was chronically vaginally abused. I would suggest however that a 6 and 9 year old playing doctor is not normal between siblings.

I have been studying this case since the beginning and I do not recall evidence of the Whites serving fruit cocktail at their Christmas party. Could you provide that information or knowledge there of? The fruit cocktail (grapes and cherries) could have come from a can. We do know that crab was served at the party which was a favorite of JB, which she did not consume.

What I am attesting to is that whoever hit JB in the head was over the top angry! Sure PR had a fight with JB over the cloths. Seems odd to me PR was all of a sudden in a murderous rampage when she couldn’t even tell her son not to whittle. Which leads me to this: ever wonder how the paint brush was broken. Perhaps it was whittled.

Okay, so you're suggesting that two siblings playing doctor would indicate that one of those siblings committed chronic sexual abuse. I think that's just as far-fetched as suggesting that's evidence of murder.

I do not, I apologize. Maybe someone else could provide that; I'm sure I read it in one of these threads. Do you have a source to the two siblings playing doctor? Was this noted as to taking place on just one occasion?

Yes, but unlike BR, there is actual evidence of anger on PR's that day. There is no definitive evidence of anger on BR's part that day; just speculative anger. It's as far-fetched to believe BR would grow so rageful at JBR simply one single piece of pineapple to the point that he would crack her skull.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

No boxing match here okay?
Patsy's housekeeper LHP said she had caught JB and BR under the covers in BR's room on several occasions. She'd open the door, and the kids would scream at her to get out!

I never suggested BR lost it over one piece of pineapple. However, here are some points of anger triggers:
BR stated he got a bicycle for Christmas 1996. He looks down the stairs and noticed the handle bars “Vroom, Vroom”; he stated. But JR stated that only JB and PR got a bicycle that year; as seen in the Christmas photo. If BR did get a bicycle where did it go?
JB seemed to get lavish gifts that Christmas. Why did BR smear feces on JB Christmas box of chocolates? BR was the fecal smearer after all.
JB got a lot of activities that BR was forced to attend. He said he hated it. Can’t say I blame him.
It has been noted by JP that BR had angry outbursts.
JB would be given time out for stomping on BR legos. Maybe that was the nail, IMO.

Let me be clear here, I do not know for a fact which RDI? I only know it was a RDI.
Ask yourself one question. As overheard on the 911 call why did JR scream at BR “ We aren’t talking to you”? One child kidnapped and one safe?

Still waiting on your fruit cocktail served at the White’s party evidence.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Maybe a fall onto the tub, cabinet or toilet... so there are other possibilities besides a 'murderous rampage' you might want to consider.

Then why the coverup?.

 

[Swirlz]

I've seen it repeated in enough discussions about the case that Hoffman-Pugh said she caught the kids playing doctor that I'm assuming it's true but I've never seen an actual source for it. Does anyone have a link to something?

Also, I know this subject has been rehashed about a million times but I doubt it was BR who got fecal matter on the candy box. Patsy said JonBenet didn't wipe well. I think the most likely scenario is that JonBenet accidentally got poop on her fingers and then touched the box.