Should Don Imus be fired?

[Nova]

Let me repeat:

Why is it OK when black people make racist remarks about whites, but not OK when whites make them about blacks?...

Let ME repeat: no one here said either is "OK," but the contexts are very different. Why is that so hard to understand?

When African-Americans are a majority and have enslaved whites for 400 years, then we'll talk about how "all racism" is the same.

In the meantime, the difference is power. And why Bill Maher mocking the President (even if you think the satire is wrongheaded) is very different than wealthy Rush Limbaugh mocking a homeless man.

Jokes and derogatory remarks directed at the powerFUL is satire, a non-violent way of defusing a very real threat. Jokes and derogatory remarks directed at the relatively powerLESS is just, plain bullying, and that is cruel.

And while we're on the subject, why should I care that African-American rappers are allowed (in some social contexts) to say "" and I am not? I have no business using that word in any case, so how does the "double standard" hurt me?

 

[Nova]

Sorry Jenna, that doesn't wash with me. Slavery is an ancient issue, and there isn't a black person alive who ever even had a conversation with a former black slave...

Again, your sense of history is lacking. I don't know if any ex-slaves remain today. But "official" slavery was not abolished in this country until 142 years ago; some of those ex-slaves lived to be 100 or more. Of course, there are still people alive who knew them.

Perhaps more to the point, de facto slavery persisted in much of the country for at least another century. As a teenager, I had a friend whose parents still owned the family plantation in Louisiana; he was quite candid that the descendants of the family slaves of 1865 were still tied to the property through economic means. (Low wages, large debts at the "company" store, forced illiteracy, etc.) So constitutional amendment or no, slavery was still alive and well. That was in the 1970s.

If we are ever going to move forward and erase bigotry, we have to eliminate racist remarks on all fronts. It cannot be acceptable for some and not for others.

That's a lovely goal, but simply declaring it is not enough. Marginalized people are going to resent their marginalization. If you want to eliminate racial resentment, then you might start by eliminating racial inequality. We still have a way to go in that regard. Racist comments by Don Imus and his producer - even and perhaps especially under the guise of "entertainment" - don't help.

 

[Paladin]

When African-Americans are a majority and have enslaved whites for 400 years, then we'll talk about how "all racism" is the same.

Racism only comes in one flavor, my friend.

 

[Nova]

But a lot of slaves sold by their own countrymen ended up sold in Europe. Maybe I am just uniformed but Europe does not seem to have the same problems???

Of course, Europe has ethnic conflict. It may seem different because "slavery" as we define it in this country died out earlier there (largely for economic reasons). But Europe has fought many a bloody war over the virtual enslavement of one people (the Irish, say) by another (the English). (That is just one example; I'm not claiming the English are unique in this respect.)

 

[Nova]

Racism only comes in one flavor, my friend.

I'm sorry, Paladin, but that's like saying all "hatred" is the same, yet surely we can distinguish between "hatred" of injustice and "hatred" of, say, all women.

As for whether Africans would be immigrating in large numbers to the U.S. had there been no history of slavery, we have no way of knowing how Africa would be today without the very real history of colonial interference. In fact, even with the terrible consequences of European and Middle Eastern oppression of the continent, African migration to North America is relatively minimal.

 

[Paladin]

I'm sorry, Paladin, but that's like saying all "hatred" is the same, yet surely we can distinguish between "hatred" of injustice and "hatred" of, say, all women.

No it's not. You either dislike someone because of their race or you don't. That's racism. It doesn't matter the reasons behind it.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

From the looks of things, they would have been here anyways even if "we" didn't bring them. We are the melting pot of the world afterall.

And just because I'm white, I don't think I should be included in this "we." My family didn't come to America until well after the slaves were emancipated.

Yes, they would have, but if they were not brought by slavery, they wouldn't have the problems that they do with us Whites.

Didn't mean to insinuate your family owned any slaves. I'm not sure mine did either, but I don't think that most blacks really care. If they're prejudiced against one of us, they're prejudiced against us all.

 

[Nova]

No it's not. You either dislike someone because of their race or you don't. That's racism. It doesn't matter the reasons behind it.

Really? Somehow I think Harriet Tubman or Rosa Parks would disagree. The "racism" they faced was very different -- in intensity and degree -- than what *I* face because some isolated African-American somewhere doesn't like white people.

To take a different example, George W. Bush isn't the only man in this country who won't admit his mistakes. But his arrogance matters a lot more than that of some shlub who won't stop to ask directions, because the CONSEQUENCES of Bush's arrogance kill thousands. The poor shlub just drives in circles for awhile. Macho pride in both cases, but, oh, what a difference!

 

[Paladin]

Really? Somehow I think Harriet Tubman or Rosa Parks would disagree. The "racism" they faced was very different -- in intensity and degree -- than what *I* face because some isolated African-American somewhere doesn't like white people.

To take a different example, George W. Bush isn't the only man in this country who won't admit his mistakes. But his arrogance matters a lot more than that of some shlub who won't stop to ask directions, because the CONSEQUENCES of Bush's arrogance kill thousands. The poor shlub just drives in circles for awhile. Macho pride in both cases, but, oh, what a difference!

Racism on any scale is still racism. It's quantifiable, as you have pointed out, but it's the same. As I said previously, the reasons(or justifications, as some may say), is the difference here.

There are no different types of racism. It's a single idea that takes on the form of the direction it is facing, and the intensity and the degree that it is amplified by. It can't get any simpler than that.

I think you're mixing up discrimination and prejudice with racism.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

And while we're on the subject, why should I care that African-American rappers are allowed (in some social contexts) to say "" and I am not? I have no business using that word in any case, so how does the "double standard" hurt me?

That's exactly how I see it. What could they possibly call us that carries the weight that the "N" word does? Cracker? Honkey? LOL I mean seriously, I laugh hysterically when I hear those words. They simply can't call us anything that hurts to the degree and depth that the "N" word does.

 

[Paladin]

Nova,

I'll let you have the last word here, but I did want to get back to the topic at hand.

I'm just trying to get a handle on what good everyone thinks will happen by Don Imus being fired. How will his removal help battle racism? I think it's a quick and easy solution that solves nothing in the grand scheme of things.

We're only teaching people to hide their racism rather than eliminating it.

 

[csds703]

Everyone who posts here seems to think that freedom of speech is pretty important. I'm not willing to say that Imus shouldn't have it but we should.

I am not 100% convinced that freedom of speech is a good thing.
I understand that in theory, it is our constitutional right, but when
it's hate speech where do we draw the line?
I saw his words as not only racist, but harmful to these young women's self esteem. I don't think he would have had the same take on the men's basketball team. There was a double standard in there as well. JMO

 

[Paladin]

I saw his words as not only racist, but harmful to these young women's self esteem.

Come on now. I bet not a single one of these girls listen to his show, and why exactly would their self-esteem be hurt by a crusty old fat like Don Imus? Have you seen him? He's in no position to cast stones.

I would have brushed off his comments like it were dirt.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I am not 100% convinced that freedom of speech is a good thing.
I understand that in theory, it is our constitutional right, but when
it's hate speech where do we draw the line?
I saw his words as not only racist, but harmful to these young women's self esteem. I don't think he would have had the same take on the men's basketball team. There was a double standard in there as well. JMO

I think that they need to keep in mind that Imus doesn't know them. To be offended by what someone who doesn't even know you says about you seems a little silly to me. When someone can rock you to your core by simply making an idiotic statement like he did, you're giving away a lot of your power to someone you've never met. I don't think its a good idea to raise our children like that. There are a lot of things going on that are so in-your-face that its impossible to take the meaning any other way. If we're going to simply grind to a halt because one radio D.J. is stupid and didn't think before he says one thing, then we're in big trouble. We're over P.C. these days and it won't benefit anyone. It was during my lifetime that black and white entertainers couldn't kiss on screen. I would love to hear what some of the blacks who lived 75-100 years ago would say about this. Seems to me that we've come leaps and bounds in the last 40 or so years. Racism won't get wiped off the face of the earth as quickly as we want it to, but you can't legislate morals. If someone, for whatever reason, white or black, is a racist, they're most likely going to remain that way. I don't think that blowing something this trivial out of proportion is helping the cause.

And by the way, any rap video does 100 times more damage calling women "ho's" and "" and making them "shake their money maker" than what Imus said on the radio. I've heard that over 75% of black children are born out of wedlock. Surely the black community can put all of this media to better use than trying to get a dried up old radio has-been fired.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Come on now. I bet not a single one of these girls listen to his show, and why exactly would their self-esteem be hurt by a crusty old fat like Don Imus? Have you seen him? He's in no position to cast stones.

I would have brushed off his comments like it were dirt.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[LionRun]

I am not 100% convinced that freedom of speech is a good thing.
I understand that in theory, it is our constitutional right, but when
it's hate speech where do we draw the line?
I saw his words as not only racist, but harmful to these young women's self esteem. I don't think he would have had the same take on the men's basketball team. There was a double standard in there as well. JMO

I agree, csds.

Lion

 

[Paladin]

Ooops, I meant to say crusty old fart, not old fat. Hehe.

 

[ljwf22]

Jokes and derogatory remarks directed at the powerFUL is satire, a non-violent way of defusing a very real threat. Jokes and derogatory remarks directed at the relatively powerLESS is just, plain bullying, and that is cruel.

Wow, that's a powerful explanation, Nova. I like it very much.

At first I thought Imus should be fired, but agree a suspension - without pay -is OK. I do not think his apology for what he said is genuine. I would like to see all 'shock jocks' go away. I do not understand their popularity.

 

[Ntegrity]

I think Imus should become a rapper. He's got the lingo down.

 

[SadieMae]

As I posted before, the majority of us here had ancestors that came to America under less than ideal circumstances. They all paid their dues to get a new start. Not all chains are physical. The Irish, Italians and others faced prejudice, racism, and bigotry also. They were able to put it behind them and move on, and so have many Blacks. Heck, every white person I know is not all of anything... Irish/Italian, Polish/Italian, Swedish/Irish/American Indian, etc, etc. That blending didn't happen when their ancestors first arrived.