Simple question...

[BBB167893]

ETA - leaving the 'Eenglish' typo since it adds a little Manuel to the discussion...

How appropriate! I'm likely to turn into Basil Fawlty without my patience pills.

 

[slug]

Now if that's not a wildcard.

The suspect has 'many handwriting styles' and thus accounts for the observed discrepancies between exemplars and the RN.

Again, taking into consideration the whole picture, the general style of PR's writing is neat and legible whereas the RN author has scribbles, corrections, and turnabouts. These have nothing to do with disguised handwriting, but the thought process that goes along with writing..

But someone writing it in a panic stressed mood etc may end up making more mistakes than in there usual handwriting whoever wrote it

 

[Sophie]

How appropriate! I'm likely to turn into Basil Fawlty without my patience pills.

LOL. Just got an image of you thrashing HOTYH with a tree branch

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

But someone writing it in a panic stressed mood etc may end up making more mistakes than in there usual handwriting whoever wrote it

Someone with varied handwriting styles writing in a panic stressed mood.

Hmmm.

A DOUBLE-WILDCARD!!

ANYBODY could've written that RN using this standard. IOW you'll be able to explain any discrepancy between anybody's exemplar writing and questioned writing.

It might be better to sit back, look at the RN, look at the exemplars, and say "they look different overall'. There are different styles, different spelling, different handwriting (oh, except for 12 letters out of 1000's that we 'cherry picked'). Too bad whoever had to write the note had to write the ENTIRE note not just 12 letters.

 

[Sophie]

But someone writing it in a panic stressed mood etc may end up making more mistakes than in there usual handwriting whoever wrote it

This reminds me: I read this week that Lin Wood had categorically refused to allow Patsy to give Darnay Hoffman samples of Patsy's writing where she wore gloves and used her left hand. I think I have seen this before so I'll assume it's fact and ask why would he refuse this?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

This reminds me: I read this week that Lin Wood had categorically refused to allow Patsy to give Darnay Hoffman samples of Patsy's writing where she wore gloves and used her left hand. I think I have seen this before so I'll assume it's fact and ask why would he refuse this?

I call that 'lets make the defendant into the criminal'

Its where OJ tries on the glove, its where PR is asked to write the exact words of the RN using the same pen and paper.

If it were up to me, the only admissible exemplars from PR would be from before the crime.

 

[Sophie]

I call that 'lets make the defendant into the criminal'

Its where OJ tries on the glove, its where PR is asked to write the exact words of the RN using the same pen and paper.

If it were up to me, the only admissible exemplars from PR would be from before the crime.

Que? I think you'll find a number of RDIs agreeing with you there.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Que? I think you'll find a number of RDIs agreeing with you there.

The problem with after-the-fact exemplars is that the suspect has seen the RN and would obviously be influenced or affected by it.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Well, yes, but since Eenglish wouldn't be the official language and probably not used in the home etc, you couldn't really call them native Anglophones but they would be very fluent. I'm thinking that Tadpole probably knows more about this sort of bilingualism being Canadian and probably almost as fluent in French as in English although I think she said she was an anglo...

Although we are getting away from the handwriting point....

ETA - leaving the 'Eenglish' typo since it adds a little Manuel to the discussion...perfect for Friday afternoon...

When you think about it the list of countries where English is given special status, where someone could be taught from birth, is very large.

Not only that, but the RN isn't factually known to be Anglophone. Nobody knows for a fact that the RN was not written by ESL.

 

[BBB167893]

LOL. Just got an image of you thrashing HOTYH with a tree branch

ROFLMAO! Sophie, do not tempt me!

 

[BBB167893]

This reminds me: I read this week that Lin Wood had categorically refused to allow Patsy to give Darnay Hoffman samples of Patsy's writing where she wore gloves and used her left hand. I think I have seen this before so I'll assume it's fact and ask why would he refuse this?

I read that too. And as far as I know, it is fact.

why would he refuse this?

Darn good question.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I read that too. And as far as I know, it is fact.

why would he refuse this?

Darn good question.

I would refuse also.

Pretty soon you'll have PR writing it in the middle of the night, to see if time-of-day affects her writing. Heck, lets have PR do something stressful and then have her write the RN.

At what point do you sit back, look at the two writings, and say: they're fundamentally different. The spelling, style, thought process, vocabulary, and grammatical formations are different. And oh boy don't bring up the spelling. PR spells 'advize' all the time, and we have evidence of that. The RN author spelled it advise. Go ahead, rationalize how PR deliberately misspelled words or forgot how to spell words after writing the RN. Its fun to read.

Everything is different, nothing is the same between PR's writings and the RN.

 

[BBB167893]

Que? I think you'll find a number of RDIs agreeing with you there.

Say what? I don't agree with one word of it. In fact, speaking purely for myself, I'm extremely relieved that it isn't up to him. If our justice system operated the way he recommends, we'd have to scrap the whole enterprise, because no one would ever be arrested, much less convicted.
He calls it making the defendant into the criminal, I call it conducting an investigation!

 

[BBB167893]

I would refuse also.

I can't say as that shocks me, HOTYH. Indeed, I can understand perfectly well why you and LW would refuse. I wasn't born yesterday.

Pretty soon you'll have PR writing it in the middle of the night, to see if time-of-day affects her writing. Heck, lets have PR do something stressful and then have her write the RN.

If I thought for a moment it would get me closer to breaking this case, you're damn right I would.

At what point do you sit back, look at the two writings, and say: they're fundamentally different. The spelling, style, thought process, vocabulary, and grammatical formations are different.

At NO point! The similarities are just too glaring.

Go ahead, rationalize how PR deliberately misspelled words or forgot how to spell words after writing the RN. Its fun to read. Everything is different, nothing is the same between PR's writings and the RN.

I'll tell you what's fun, HOTYH: watching you look at those comparison charts, then watching you flail about in an attempt to dismiss it as "cherry-picking" instead of seeing it for what it is. Well, I've got bad news for you, HOTYH. If you think that chart of a dozen matches is all there is, think again. Aside from the statement of 243 distinct similarities, there's a matter of the comparisons that were NOT posted. You would have to scrape your jaw up off the floor.

"Cherry-picking." That's just another in a long line of cop-outs. Any time anybody gets too close for comfort, it just gets handwaved by another cop-out. "Wildcard" is another, a big one. I could go on and on, but it would just get me going. And I'm fresh out of patience pills.

Well, let me tell you something, brother: maybe some of our offerings don't have a basis in cold science, but they often have a solid basis in life experience, the sort of lessons we've learned the hard way in life. IOWs, it helps to tell the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

 

[cynic]

Well, let me tell you something, brother: maybe some of our offerings don't have a basis in cold science, but they often have a solid basis in life experience, the sort of lessons we've learned the hard way in life. IOWs, it helps to tell the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

:applause:

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Well, let me tell you something, brother: maybe some of our offerings don't have a basis in cold science, but they often have a solid basis in life experience, the sort of lessons we've learned the hard way in life. IOWs, it helps to tell the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

Those with a 'solild basis in life experience' would know its absolutely foolish to leave 150 let alone 1500 characters of ones own personal handwriting at a murder scene.

Those with knowledge are aware that there is evidence of an intruder.

RDI does not own either knowledge or wisdom.

 

[Sophie]

The problem with after-the-fact exemplars is that the suspect has seen the RN and would obviously be influenced or affected by it.

Are you saying, then, that the RN is useless as a point of comparison for handwriting since the world and his wife has seen the RN so the world and his wife can therefore be said to have been influenced by it? Adds another obstacle to finding your perp. I'll say one thing for you, HOTYH, you don't choose an easy path.

 

[Sophie]

Those with a 'solild basis in life experience' would know its absolutely foolish to leave 150 let alone 1500 characters of ones own personal handwriting at a murder scene.

Those with knowledge are aware that there is evidence of an intruder.

RDI does not own either knowledge or wisdom.

That's pretty spurious, HOTYH. The RN writer would try to make his/her writing as anonymous as possible but, even when printing, we give away some of our usual attributes and, in any case, most of us don't give a moment's thought from one decade to the next about how distinctive our writing is.

 

[Sophie]

:applause:

What cynic said...

 

[Sophie]

I can't say as that shocks me, HOTYH. Indeed, I can understand perfectly well why you and LW would refuse. I wasn't born yesterday.



If I thought for a moment it would get me closer to breaking this case, you're damn right I would.



At NO point! The similarities are just too glaring.



I'll tell you what's fun, HOTYH: watching you look at those comparison charts, then watching you flail about in an attempt to dismiss it as "cherry-picking" instead of seeing it for what it is. Well, I've got bad news for you, HOTYH. If you think that chart of a dozen matches is all there is, think again. Aside from the statement of 243 distinct similarities, there's a matter of the comparisons that were NOT posted. You would have to scrape your jaw up off the floor.

"Cherry-picking." That's just another in a long line of cop-outs. Any time anybody gets too close for comfort, it just gets handwaved by another cop-out. "Wildcard" is another, a big one. I could go on and on, but it would just get me going. And I'm fresh out of patience pills.

Well, let me tell you something, brother: maybe some of our offerings don't have a basis in cold science, but they often have a solid basis in life experience, the sort of lessons we've learned the hard way in life. IOWs, it helps to tell the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

Wonderful post, Dave, and incredibly insightful. Also tallies with what you said earlier in the week about a selective approach to prima facie.