Something that has been bugging me... (WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT)

[Linda7NJ]

I have been unable to find an actual discussion of this exact point, BUT..

A different thread turned up some other images of this knot which certainly suggest that the hair is actually caught into the knott as it was tied, rather than tangled and perhaps caught under a loop as the device was rotated.

Which means that I am incorrect and should probably slink off into the shadows and hide again.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-cord-garrote.htm

Here ya go

 

[Anyhoo]

Yes, I do. She was the golden child.

What evidence exists of psychopathic behavior in BR?

 

[SeekingJana]

When we finally got to see some of the redacted list of evidence the judge authorized the BPD to search for and remove from the house, there were many drawstrings to adult male sweatpants listed.

This has always lead me ( and others) to believe that what we think of as a cord on this tiny child's neck was right at hand- just the drawstring from a pair of adult sized sweat pants.

My mother has said for all these years that JAR molested JBR chronically and then killed her.
I would like to see what his air tight alibi is. I've seen the ATM CCTV footage in Atlanta, and when JBR was killed, it was a very common ruse in Atlanta for someone to " alibi" another person by using their ATM card at a certain time and place with the old grainy footage that was standard back then. I'm rethinking the possibility of a larger older brother being in the basement. After all, his biological fluids and a Dr. Seuss book were in a " dusty" suitcase... ( anyone could stir up dust in that filthy hell hole basement and cover recent use).

 

[Anyhoo]

I don't think the parents had a choice. I doubt they wanted to discard JBR's body in the wild, but even assuming they did, I don't think they could risk a neighbor seeing the car coming and going in the middle of the night.

In fact, I think that's why the Small Foreign Faction and the "WAR AND PEACE of ransom notes" were invented: to suggest the presence of others in the house without removing the body.

OTOH, with BR they had a choice: they could have easily kept him close, explaining that they feared for his psychological well-being or simply that they were afraid of the SFF. To get him out of the way, all they had to do was send him to his room.

As I envision that morning, of course.

I think that would have been awkward to say the least with police all over the house, any of which could question him at any time. No, the best thing for the parents was to get him out of the house and away from the police. Definitely the lesser of two evils.

 

[Anyhoo]

When we finally got to see some of the redacted list of evidence the judge authorized the BPD to search for and remove from the house, there were many drawstrings to adult male sweatpants listed.

This has always lead me ( and others) to believe that what we think of as a cord on this tiny child's neck was right at hand- just the drawstring from a pair of adult sized sweat pants.

My mother has said for all these years that JAR molested JBR chronically and then killed her.
I would like to see what his air tight alibi is. I've seen the ATM CCTV footage in Atlanta, and when JBR was killed, it was a very common ruse in Atlanta for someone to " alibi" another person by using their ATM card at a certain time and place with the old grainy footage that was standard back then. I'm rethinking the possibility of a larger older brother being in the basement. After all, his biological fluids and a Dr. Seuss book were in a " dusty" suitcase... ( anyone could stir up dust in that filthy hell hole basement and cover recent use).

There is no evidence that JAR was in the house that night.

 

[SeekingJana]

There's no evidence that Burke was awake either.
Lots of things JR " lawyered up" his family over, perhaps.
I think it was all PR and JR doing the killing and the staging.

 

[madeleine]

It is CRUCIAL IMO whether or not they found any Ramsey touch DNA on the cord. (I mean the cord around her neck,not the wrist ligatures,JR touched those)

1.The R's claimed the rope wasn't theirs,JR even claimed he didn't see the "garrote" on her neck which means he didn't touch it,so if their touch DNA is on it they got a problem.

2.If the cord was used by a Ramsey (like most of us assume) and their touch DNA is NOT on it then we got a problem cause it means whoever touched it wore gloves which means it was used during the cover-up and not in the killing.If it were a toy or a device used before on her,why wear gloves?

 

[Linda7NJ]

There's no evidence that Burke was awake either.
Lots of things JR " lawyered up" his family over, perhaps.
I think it was all PR and JR doing the killing and the staging.

Sure there is. There is the bowl of pineapple and the ice tea glass. ... With his fingerprints.There is the end of the 911 call.
And there is still the contradiction of an awake JonBenet verses a knocked out cold needed to be carried up to bed JonBenet..


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[questfortrue]

It is CRUCIAL IMO whether or not they found any Ramsey touch DNA on the cord. (I mean the cord around her neck,not the wrist ligatures,JR touched those)

1.The R's claimed the rope wasn't theirs,JR even claimed he didn't see the "garrote" on her neck which means he didn't touch it,so if their touch DNA is on it they got a problem.

2.If the cord was used by a Ramsey (like most of us assume) and their touch DNA is NOT on it then we got a problem cause it means whoever touched it wore gloves which means it was used during the cover-up and not in the killing.If it were a toy or a device used before on her,why wear gloves?

Great questions.
FWIW about cord and duct tape:
An employee at McGuckins Hardware notified police she had received 2 phone calls from a "John" who was asking about a purchase on his credit card. The first time he was quite demanding and aggressive about looking up information about the purchase. They figured out that the charges were under PR's credit card which was on the same account as JR's, but different numbers. Though the computer did not have what the charges related to, as far as revealing what was purchaed, one of the items was the same price as duct tape, sold in the store. JR had likely questioned PR where she purchased duct tape (moo) and was covering tracks.

As far as the cord goes, BPD tracked similar cord sold in the Army/Navy store, in close proximity to Access Graphics. I believe the police thought that it could have been purchased there (by JR?). moo

 

[otg]

(bbm)

Great questions.
FWIW about cord and duct tape:
An employee at McGuckins Hardware notified police she had received 2 phone calls from a "John" who was asking about a purchase on his credit card. The first time he was quite demanding and aggressive about looking up information about the purchase. They figured out that the charges were under PR's credit card which was on the same account as JR's, but different numbers. Though the computer did not have what the charges related to, as far as revealing what was purchaed, one of the items was the same price as duct tape, sold in the store. JR had likely questioned PR where she purchased duct tape (moo) and was covering tracks.

As far as the cord goes, BPD tracked similar cord sold in the Army/Navy store, in close proximity to Access Graphics. I believe the police thought that it could have been purchased there (by JR?). moo

...or, the "JR" on the phone with McGuckins was James Rapp:
http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon012100.htm

This article is no longer online (that I could find), but here is part of another article:

Colorado Private 'Eye' Peddles Secret Information
By Judith Crosson

GOLDEN, Colo. (Reuters) - A private investigator and his wife made their first appearance in court Monday on charges of illegally gathering information on the parents of slain child beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey and the victims of the Columbine High School shooting massacre.

James and Regana Rapp, whose company was once called "Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap", are alleged to have impersonated those they were probing on the telephone and to have sold confidential information to tabloid newspapers.

They were indicted last month by a Jefferson County grand jury and charged with violating the Colorado Organized Crime Control Act. If convicted they face penalties of up to 24 years in prison and fines of up to $1 million.

The Rapps' alleged investigative targets included John and Patsy Ramsey, whose six-year-old daughter JonBenet was murdered in December 1996 -- a crime that has never been solved -- as well as some of those killed or wounded in the April Columbine High School shooting massacre and Los Angeles police officers.

The Rapps did not enter a plea during Monday's brief hearing and the proceedings were continued until September.

The 1,200 "clients" of their most recent business "Touch Tone Information Acquisition" were virtually all private investigators, working on behalf of clients including tabloid newspapers, said Dennis Hall, deputy district attorney for Jefferson County, who led the investigation.

"I think our interest is really in the ultimate consumers of the information. We have a lot of work to do to figure out who they are," Hall told reporters.

The Rapps allegedly obtained social security numbers, cellular telephone records, banking information and travel information on members of the Ramsey family -- a target of intense media speculation since the death of their daughter.
​

The Rapps were the ones who had illegally obtained Ramsey cell phone records, which resulted in the DA's office sealing the records from investigators.

 

[CircuitGuy]

I doubt they wanted to discard JBR's body in the wild, but even assuming they did, I don't think they could risk a neighbor seeing the car coming and going in the middle of the night.

In fact, I think that's why the Small Foreign Faction and the "WAR AND PEACE of ransom notes" were invented: to suggest the presence of others in the house without removing the body.

It's possible they considered taking her body to some distant location or to get a bogus DNA sample to plant in the house or on her body. That's why the RN mentions an arduous journey to deliver the money and the possibility of an earlier exchange. This give the Rs freedom to go out all night. They could say the kidnappers told them to go out to the countryside but something went wrong and they killed her. They didn't carry out this option, but they may have gone out for some other reason. If anyone finds out and asks why they did it, they can say in the early morning hours they were looking for JBR.

The timing is the hole in this theory. They would have had to discover the RN right after the intruder left it late at night. This is a problem with the entire RN. The note says they'll call "tomorrow", but they got home late, so I don't understand why the RN doesn't say "in a few hours" instead of 8am tomorrow.

 

[CircuitGuy]

There is the end of the 911 call.

On the tape publicly available I couldn't hear any voices at the end of the 911 call. Crime labs disagreed on whether there were voices. Do you have access to audio that reveals those voices? I heard nothing on the tape. I suspect it's pareidolia and wishful thinking on the part of investigators who desperately want more info.

Kolar says he talked to the 911 operator who said she was freaked out by the change in tenor after the Rs thought the call was disconnected. I wish he had explained if the headset audio quality is better than the recording quality. If it's not, they're just imaging things.

Based only on the public tape, I don't believe there is any extra conversation at the end of the tape.

 

[Linda7NJ]

On the tape publicly available I couldn't hear any voices at the end of the 911 call. Crime labs disagreed on whether there were voices. Do you have access to audio that reveals those voices? I heard nothing on the tape. I suspect it's pareidolia and wishful thinking on the part of investigators who desperately want more info.

Kolar says he talked to the 911 operator who said she was freaked out by the change in tenor after the Rs thought the call was disconnected. I wish he had explained if the headset audio quality is better than the recording quality. If it's not, they're just imaging things.

Based only on the public tape, I don't believe there is any extra conversation at the end of the tape.

I can't hear it on the public tape either. I believe that's because it's been edited and many generations away from the original.

I do remember hearing it on Geraldo many many years ago. I know this has been debated, but I *know* I heard it.

I also believe Kolar.


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[midwest mama]

It is CRUCIAL IMO whether or not they found any Ramsey touch DNA on the cord. (I mean the cord around her neck,not the wrist ligatures,JR touched those)

1.The R's claimed the rope wasn't theirs,JR even claimed he didn't see the "garrote" on her neck which means he didn't touch it,so if their touch DNA is on it they got a problem.

2.If the cord was used by a Ramsey (like most of us assume) and their touch DNA is NOT on it then we got a problem cause it means whoever touched it wore gloves which means it was used during the cover-up and not in the killing.If it were a toy or a device used before on her,why wear gloves?

ITA, madeleine. I also wonder if the forensic team could have unwound the knot around the paintbrush stick to look for any tDNA that might have gotten left behind UNDER the knot. If the stick was wiped down after the knot was tied and the ligature used, and there were no gloves used, then there might be some tDNA left under the knot.

I suppose we could expect some from Patsy, since the paintbrush reportedly came from her paint tray, but what if there was some other traceable Ramsey tDNA on that piece of paintbrush?

If no other tDNA besides Patsy's, leaving us with an option that the killer wore gloves and the ligature was most likely fashioned for staging, wouldn't we also have to consider Patsy WAS the only one capable of fashioning that ligature?

 

[questfortrue]

(bbm)

...or, the "JR" on the phone with McGuckins was James Rapp:
http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon012100.htm

This article is no longer online (that I could find), but here is part of another article:

Colorado Private 'Eye' Peddles Secret Information
By Judith Crosson

GOLDEN, Colo. (Reuters) - A private investigator and his wife made their first appearance in court Monday on charges of illegally gathering information on the parents of slain child beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey and the victims of the Columbine High School shooting massacre.

James and Regana Rapp, whose company was once called "Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap", are alleged to have impersonated those they were probing on the telephone and to have sold confidential information to tabloid newspapers.

They were indicted last month by a Jefferson County grand jury and charged with violating the Colorado Organized Crime Control Act. If convicted they face penalties of up to 24 years in prison and fines of up to $1 million.

The Rapps' alleged investigative targets included John and Patsy Ramsey, whose six-year-old daughter JonBenet was murdered in December 1996 -- a crime that has never been solved -- as well as some of those killed or wounded in the April Columbine High School shooting massacre and Los Angeles police officers.

The Rapps did not enter a plea during Monday's brief hearing and the proceedings were continued until September.

The 1,200 "clients" of their most recent business "Touch Tone Information Acquisition" were virtually all private investigators, working on behalf of clients including tabloid newspapers, said Dennis Hall, deputy district attorney for Jefferson County, who led the investigation.

"I think our interest is really in the ultimate consumers of the information. We have a lot of work to do to figure out who they are," Hall told reporters.

The Rapps allegedly obtained social security numbers, cellular telephone records, banking information and travel information on members of the Ramsey family -- a target of intense media speculation since the death of their daughter.
​

The Rapps were the ones who had illegally obtained Ramsey cell phone records, which resulted in the DA's office sealing the records from investigators.

Thank you. Wow.
The BPD did listen in (tapped McGuckins phone) and heard a "John" discuss this over the phone on the 3rd phone call on Jan. 20, 1997. Then the bookkeeper asked for and received a fax from this "John" who formally requested a copy of the receipt and the bookkeeper faxed that to him. Would be easy enough to confirm if it were the Rapps, if the voice was different than JR's or if the fax numbers were not JR's.

Are the Rapps still in jail?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Thank you. Wow.
The BPD did listen in (tapped McGuckins phone) and heard a "John" discuss this over the phone on the 3rd phone call on Jan. 20, 1997. Then the bookkeeper asked for and received a fax from this "John" who formally requested a copy of the receipt and the bookkeeper faxed that to him. Would be easy enough to confirm if it were the Rapps, if the voice was different than JR's or if the fax numbers were not JR's.

Are the Rapps still in jail?

Nah... They got off very easy,

I've been trying to find what the tabloids reported about those calls back then. specifically the days before and days after the murder.


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[dodie20]

(bbm)

...or, the "JR" on the phone with McGuckins was James Rapp:
http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon012100.htm

This article is no longer online (that I could find), but here is part of another article:

Colorado Private 'Eye' Peddles Secret Information
By Judith Crosson

GOLDEN, Colo. (Reuters) - A private investigator and his wife made their first appearance in court Monday on charges of illegally gathering information on the parents of slain child beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey and the victims of the Columbine High School shooting massacre.

James and Regana Rapp, whose company was once called "Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap", are alleged to have impersonated those they were probing on the telephone and to have sold confidential information to tabloid newspapers.

They were indicted last month by a Jefferson County grand jury and charged with violating the Colorado Organized Crime Control Act. If convicted they face penalties of up to 24 years in prison and fines of up to $1 million.

The Rapps' alleged investigative targets included John and Patsy Ramsey, whose six-year-old daughter JonBenet was murdered in December 1996 -- a crime that has never been solved -- as well as some of those killed or wounded in the April Columbine High School shooting massacre and Los Angeles police officers.

The Rapps did not enter a plea during Monday's brief hearing and the proceedings were continued until September.

The 1,200 "clients" of their most recent business "Touch Tone Information Acquisition" were virtually all private investigators, working on behalf of clients including tabloid newspapers, said Dennis Hall, deputy district attorney for Jefferson County, who led the investigation.

"I think our interest is really in the ultimate consumers of the information. We have a lot of work to do to figure out who they are," Hall told reporters.

The Rapps allegedly obtained social security numbers, cellular telephone records, banking information and travel information on members of the Ramsey family -- a target of intense media speculation since the death of their daughter.
​

The Rapps were the ones who had illegally obtained Ramsey cell phone records, which resulted in the DA's office sealing the records from investigators.

The DA sealing the phone records because of the Rapps is more of that R logic. Makes no sense to me. Good thing for the Rs though...moo

 

[LinasK]

So PR buys the materials for her husband to create a garrot so he can sexually abuse their daughter with it? She buys the materials well advance of the murder indicating she is preparing for the murder? There is no way that makes any sense.

I never said Patsy bought them for John for that purpose. I think Patsy bought them as art supplies. John or Burke made the garrote. I am a JDI, not an IDI.
I think John molested her using the garrote as part of his EA game, then one of the Ramsey's- John or Patsy used it in the staging.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Nah... They got off very easy,

I've been trying to find what the tabloids reported about those calls back then. specifically the days before and days after the murder.


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Here's a database with pretty much every tabloid written on the case:

http://jonbenet-ramsey.com/tabloids/login.php

(You have to register).

 

[otg]

Thank you. Wow.
The BPD did listen in (tapped McGuckins phone) and heard a "John" discuss this over the phone on the 3rd phone call on Jan. 20, 1997. Then the bookkeeper asked for and received a fax from this "John" who formally requested a copy of the receipt and the bookkeeper faxed that to him. Would be easy enough to confirm if it were the Rapps, if the voice was different than JR's or if the fax numbers were not JR's.

Are the Rapps still in jail?

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...-rapp-columbine-high-school-shooting-indicted:

Rapp and his wife were charged with multiple counts of racketeering, and face up to 24 years in prison and fines up to $1 million if convicted.
​

But wait! 24 years? This is, after all, Colorado. So...

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon012100.htm:

[FONT=VERDANA, ARIAL, HELVETICA, SANS-SERIF][SIZE=-1]Jan. 21[/SIZE][/FONT] [SIZE=-1] - JEFFERSON COUNTY - A private detective who made thousands of dollars a day feeding the tabloid press confidential information about the Columbine High School victims and the JonBeneÚt Ramsey murder investigation was sentenced Thursday to four years probation and 75 days in jail.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]During his last year of operation, James Joseph Rapp, 40, was grossing $4,000 to $5,000 a day and making about $1 million a year, senior Deputy District Attorney Dennis Hall said during Rapp's sentencing hearing.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1] Prosecutors did not ask for any prison time for Rapp, who had pleaded guilty to one count of racketeering. But Judge Thomas Woodford said he wanted Rapp to spend some time in jail as a condition of probation because of the nature of the crime.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]"It boils down to lying to make big money - lying as to who you are. You can't tell lies to make $4,000 to $5,000 a day" and get away with it, said Woodford.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]In June 1999, Rapp was indicted by the Jefferson County grand jury on two counts of racketeering. In the indictment, the grand jury alleged Rapp and his wife, Regana, received in excess of 100 calls or faxes a day requesting confidential information.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1] The grand jury said Rapp used subterfuge to obtain everything from unlisted phone numbers and home addresses to bank records and credit card bills.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Among the information Rapp illegally obtained were the cellular billing records for John and Patsy Ramsey, and John Ramsey's credit-card records. Hall said Thursday that Rapp passed the information to Larry Olmstead, owner of California-based Press Pass Media, who gave it to his clients, primarily tabloid media outlets.[/SIZE]​