Something that has been bugging me... (WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT)

[txsvicki]

I've read that it takes about 4 minutes to strangle someone. That may also be based on a victim awake and struggling.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Sandstorm;9974959

That would explain the RN. As I said, I cannot imagine that JR saw that ahead of time, it was just so "out there" and so very Patsy.

The irony is that if they wanted to protect Burke from the stigma following him thorugh life, they actually did the exact opposite with their lies and staging.

If they had just told the truth no one would be even discussing this case today. It might have gotten a minimum coverage on the National news, might not have even gotten that, and would have died away like so many stories
Most people would not even remember the story today. How many "officially" Solved cases are even discussed unless there is an appeal, retrial or something of that nature, which could not have happened in this case as there could have been no prosecution.

If the R's could go back to the week between Christmas and New Years, would they have done things differently? If BDI, would they have just told the truth? Or would they decide to still go ahead with spreading the intruder theory through national media?

 

[UKGuy]

Why would assuming the garrote accomplished this be a mistake? I'm just basing my theories on what has been presented. Maybe there's more, IDK...moo

dodie20,
It might be that the garrote as advertised never asphyxiated JonBenet, but that some other ligature did.

A careful read of the Autopsy Report allows for this assumption, this might be the reason behind Wecht's much derided erotic asphyxiation theory?

.

 

[DeeDee249]

dodie20,
It might be that the garrote as advertised never asphyxiated JonBenet, but that some other ligature did.

A careful read of the Autopsy Report allows for this assumption, this might be the reason behind Wecht's much derided erotic asphyxiation theory?

.

I don't see in the autopsy anything that would suggest to me that anything other than that cord was used to strangle her. Manual strangulation leaves distinctive marks. And the only ligature furrow matches the ligature that was found on her neck in thickness. I have never believed there was a scarf used or hands or anything other than the cord for the simple reason that there are no other marks or bruises on her throat to indicate this.
The ligature furrow is circumferential, indicating not only that SHE did not move (aka already unconscious and therefore not moving) but also that the ligature itself did not move other than to tighten. This proves she was not hung or suspended in any way, because if that happens the furrow looks different, with a space in the furrow on the opposite side to where the weight of the body pulled. If you look at the autopsy photo showing the back of her neck, you will see the angry red furrow goes all around her neck, even the nape- there is NO space that indicated the weight of her suspended body pulled away from the cord.

 

[UKGuy]

I don't see in the autopsy anything that would suggest to me that anything other than that cord was used to strangle her. Manual strangulation leaves distinctive marks. And the only ligature furrow matches the ligature that was found on her neck in thickness. I have never believed there was a scarf used or hands or anything other than the cord for the simple reason that there are no other marks or bruises on her throat to indicate this.
The ligature furrow is circumferential, indicating not only that SHE did not move (aka already unconscious and therefore not moving) but also that the ligature itself did not move other than to tighten. This proves she was not hung or suspended in any way, because if that happens the furrow looks different, with a space in the furrow on the opposite side to where the weight of the body pulled. If you look at the autopsy photo showing the back of her neck, you will see the angry red furrow goes all around her neck, even the nape- there is NO space that indicated the weight of her suspended body pulled away from the cord.

DeeDee249,
BBM are the magic words. I suspect otherwise, and it corresponds with the staging.

I reckon things are precisely not what they appear due to staging. So everything you assert above is correct. I do not think JonBenet was ever suspended.

A big clue actually lies in something you allude to, i.e that the furrow was circumferential.

So if JonBenet is not moving ... ?

There are marks or contusions on her neck that cannot simply be explained away by the application of a circumferential ligature.

They may have explanations but patently not of a circumferential nature?

I think what I'm suggesting is that the paintbrush/ligature need not have killed JonBenet. That was accomplished elsewhere using similar methods, except what you see in the basement is a staged representation?

I reckon JonBenet was being molested by multiple people in her social circle and it was this that signed her death warrant.



.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
BBM are the magic words. I suspect otherwise, and it corresponds with the staging.

I reckon things are precisely not what they appear due to staging. So everything you assert above is correct. I do not think JonBenet was ever suspended.

A big clue actually lies in something you allude to, i.e that the furrow was circumferential.

So if JonBenet is not moving ... ?

There are marks or contusions on her neck that cannot simply be explained away by the application of a circumferential ligature.

They may have explanations but patently not of a circumferential nature?

I think what I'm suggesting is that the paintbrush/ligature need not have killed JonBenet. That was accomplished elsewhere using similar methods, except what you see in the basement is a staged representation?

I reckon JonBenet was being molested by multiple people in her social circle and it was this that signed her death warrant.



.

I am not sure about the multiple molesters, but some of the marks on he neck are not specific to the circumferential nature of the ligature but from a strangulation itself. Among them, the petechiae- found in all strangulation victims. And the large, reddish triangular abrasion- found in strangulation victims and is blood pooling from burst blood vessels under the skin at the point of deepest pressure from the ligature. It is true that in a staged crime scene it cannot always be determined what actually occurred. But things like the autopsy report and the marks on the victim I feel are less concerned with staging and more to do with how she died.
The ligature may or may not be staging- I am still wrestling with that one. It was up to the investigators to determine what was staged. The coroner was more concerned with his findings related to what killed her.
One thing I do agree - her death was related to her molestation. Had the molestation not occurred, she would not have been killed.

 

[questfortrue]

DeeDee249,
Snip . . .
I reckon JonBenet was being molested by multiple people in her social circle and it was this that signed her death warrant.

.

This is speculative, since there were neither medical reports nor eye witnesses, but in support of your theory of more than one person molesting JB, there is the SBP behavior corresponding to BR’s oddities. There is also a statement in the Marilyn Van Derbur Atler book, when she is repeating statistics on sibling abuse, that sibling abuse is 5 times as frequent as parental abuse.

However, Atler also shares that at least 1/3 of the victims of sibling abuse were also victimized paternally.

There is a scene in the strange documentary of MT’s/DM’s “Who Killed Jonbenet” which was noted by Hodges. I have not viewed the video, so can’t be an authority on it. The scene is the interview with MT, JR and PR. If what is reported is true, the mannerisms recorded were clearly strange. When JR vehemently denies a sexual contact with JB, he is recorded as double blinking ( a sign of anxiety, and some impute lying) on the words “Absolutely (not)” in denial of impropriety. On one of his responses of denial, PR turns towards him, as though she might confront him, but then sticks her tongue out at him when he says “Absolutely, (I didn’t do it)”. I don’t know what PR was feeling when she stuck her tongue out, but it wasn’t a positive reinforcement of what he was saying. She subsequently reinforces her feelings giving him a look which says sardonically ‘right, you’re telling the truth all the way.’ moo

 

[Sandstorm]

Questfortrue,
Where can I view the video documentary of MT’s/DM’s “Who Killed Jonbenet” ?
I have searched YouTube without results.
Thanks.

 

[questfortrue]

Questfortrue,
Where can I view the video documentary of MT’s/DM’s “Who Killed Jonbenet” ?
I have searched YouTube without results.
Thanks.

It's not available online that I know of. I think there's a written transcript (and I don't know if it is a full transcript) somewhere on the internet, but of course it's only the video which features these behavior mannerisms.

 

[UKGuy]

This is speculative, since there were neither medical reports nor eye witnesses, but in support of your theory of more than one person molesting JB, there is the SBP behavior corresponding to BR’s oddities. There is also a statement in the Marilyn Van Derbur Atler book, when she is repeating statistics on sibling abuse, that sibling abuse is 5 times as frequent as parental abuse.

However, Atler also shares that at least 1/3 of the victims of sibling abuse were also victimized paternally.

There is a scene in the strange documentary of MT’s/DM’s “Who Killed Jonbenet” which was noted by Hodges. I have not viewed the video, so can’t be an authority on it. The scene is the interview with MT, JR and PR. If what is reported is true, the mannerisms recorded were clearly strange. When JR vehemently denies a sexual contact with JB, he is recorded as double blinking ( a sign of anxiety, and some impute lying) on the words “Absolutely (not)” in denial of impropriety. On one of his responses of denial, PR turns towards him, as though she might confront him, but then sticks her tongue out at him when he says “Absolutely, (I didn’t do it)”. I don’t know what PR was feeling when she stuck her tongue out, but it wasn’t a positive reinforcement of what he was saying. She subsequently reinforces her feelings giving him a look which says sardonically ‘right, you’re telling the truth all the way.’ moo

questfortrue,
In the absence of a smoking gun speculation is all we have. PR on occasion did seem to back JR, referring to Nedra Paugh chaperoning JonBenet when she was away in hospital etc.

Sometimes the R's mannerisms can appear to reinforce your intuition which is all you are left with at the end of the day.

I am convinced that in the R's social circle it was common knowledge that JonBenet was being molested. On 12/25/1996 it blow up in their face so they hid as much as they could, and simply denied the obvious.

That JonBenet was being molested by multiple people is the elephant in the room. Its this that has aided and abetted the R's down to today, note nobody in their social circle, apart from FW, has ever really offered an opinion on this subject.

Even after the GJ revelations and public disclosure of AH's behaviour still no comment. Yet prior R friends knew what was going on, consider Susan Stine's position, who was she defending throughout this affair, her husband, her son, or PR?

Was JonBenet's circumstances unique or was her molestation common in wealthy families?


.

 

[otg]

(snipped)

This is speculative, since there were neither medical reports nor eye witnesses, but in support of your theory of more than one person molesting JB, there is the SBP behavior corresponding to BR’s oddities. There is also a statement in the Marilyn Van Derbur Atler book, when she is repeating statistics on sibling abuse, that sibling abuse is 5 times as frequent as parental abuse.

However, Atler also shares that at least 1/3 of the victims of sibling abuse were also victimized paternally.

You know, don't you, that Marilyn Van Derbur Atler was consulted by the BPD early on in the investigation. From one of the articles that is still online:

Police spokesman Kelvin McNeill said Van Derbur Atler was able to help police in areas of the investigation. "She was asked to provide us with insight on the case because she was a noted expert on several areas of interest to us," McNeil said.
​

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon37.htm

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

1. Why a PAINTBRUSH?

2. Where's the missing end? Regardless who did it, if it were constructed that night the missing end wouldn't be missing. It would be there in the brush case with the rest of it.

3. The knot. It looks purposeful.

4. The mechanism of killing. Basically, as I understand it, this was nothing more than a noose with a stick on the end. JBR's neck was inside the noose. It was tightened either by pushing the knot or by twisting the stick and coiling the string to apply pressure against the knot. If you were trying to quickly kill someone this is not how you would do it. Not even close. You would tie a stick on both ends, loop it around the neck, and pull. Who would even THINK of constructing some device like this, let alone on the spur of the moment.

5. This took time and thought. It was't thrown together in moments as a hasty "finish her off" improvised weapon. It was crafted with at least some care, and yet it's not all that effective as a murder device. so why CONSTRUCT something like this?



6. Where's the missing parts? Specifically, where did the cord come from and where's the rest of the paintbrush? If you look at imagines of the home and basement there is cord all over the place and all kinds of wonderful strangulation implements. The killer had NO REASON to remove any of it, and in some cases had no hesitation in leaving it behind. Some of the pieces of paintbrush, for example, were left. Only one piece was missing. The remaining cord has apparently never been located.

1. Art. This was a creative act. It is no wonder art supplies are associated.

2. It remained in a hole that the brush handle was put into and broke off.

3. It had to support weight, it had to be secure to support weight.

4. The neck ligature as it ended up was not a method of killing, it was a method os suspension/posing.

5. It was premeditated and it comes from a book.

6. Good questions.

MOO

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

From The Prime Of Miss Jean Brodie:

"I think Miss Brodie is more interested in art, ma'am," said Sandy. Pictures and drawings I mean. said Sandy. "Miss Brodie told us so. Music is an interest to her but art is a passion, Miss Brodie said." "I [Miss Brodie] do indeed," said Miss Brodie, "but 'like' is hardly the word; pictorial art is my passion."

Patsy painted with oils and acrylics.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

From The Prime Of Miss Jean Brodie:

I am a descendant, do not forget, of Willie Brodie, a man of substance, a cabinet maker and designer of gibbets, ... He died cheerfully on a gibbet of his own devising.

gibbet 1. a gallows with a projecting arm at the top for suspending and displaying the bodies of criminals after hanging.

 

[Tadpole12]

Heyya Blue Bottle and Chris_Texas

Originally Posted by Chris_Texas [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9946895#post9946895"]

[/ame]

2. Where's the missing end? Regardless who did it, if it were constructed that night the missing end wouldn't be missing. It would be there in the brush case with the rest of it.

2. It remained in a hole that the brush handle was put into and broke off.

So was it broken under the weight of JBR?

Seems like a flaw in the design if such a small piece of the paintbrush handle was inserted into a hole,
would it support the weight.

Is there a guestimate on the missing length?

or was it broken during attempted removal from the hole?

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10084&page=8
http://i49.tinypic.com/4xtg.jpg

 

[Little Jedi]

Questfortrue,
Where can I view the video documentary of MT’s/DM’s “Who Killed Jonbenet” ?
I have searched YouTube without results.
Thanks.

Is this the program you meant ?
'Who Killed the Pageant Queen?'

Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHMJ72Yhm9Y&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGIcrsgPXX4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Part 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akev29aXXRo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Part 4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Z1zc75jkY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Sorry it's in 4 part's, not sure which part it's in.

 

[Tadpole12]

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=189345&postcount=62"]Forums For Justice - View Single Post - How were the ligature cords cut and the paintbrush handle broken?[/ame]

cynic's guesstimate : I do have a guess as to what the length of the metal portion (ferrule and heel) is but because of quality issues I can't be sure. It's probably between 1.25 and 1.5 inches, though.


http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10084&page=8


Maybe the end tip is half that size so ? ... 1/2 " to 3/4 "

 

[Chelly]

1. Art. This was a creative act. It is no wonder art supplies are associated.

2. It remained in a hole that the brush handle was put into and broke off.

3. It had to support weight, it had to be secure to support weight.

4. The neck ligature as it ended up was not a method of killing, it was a method os suspension/posing.

5. It was premeditated and it comes from a book.

6. Good questions.

MOO

BBM
So the body was hoisted with the knotted cord and paint brush handle paraphernalia. The paint brush handle was inserted into a hole. It was the paint brush handle that supported the weight of JB's dead body. Where was the location of the hole that the paint brush handle was inserted into? Ceiling? Wall? Pipe? Did PR need to stand on a chair?

 

[questfortrue]

I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say, or I wasn't very clear. Let me start over. I've heard, (don't know if it's true), that strangling somebody to death, is not quick. It takes awhile. I've never heard if a ligature speeds up the process, so I don't know if this affected the time involved, but it may have...as the head injury might have. My point was this-if the ligature was for staging and the perp 'unknowingly' killed JB in the process of staging, then how long did he stage? If strangling takes more than a few seconds, I don't believe this was staging...because why would a stager, (if he thought the victim was dead), strangle for any extended period of time? I tried googling a little bit, but couldn't find a real answer...just people speculating. It is gruesome and I don't like thinking about it, but I was curious to the amount of time involved here. all moo

Because there's been a lot discussed about the strangling and whether it was possible she could have been strangled previously, I also tried to find some information for this and located something on the subject of domestic abuse and strangling. The experts were Gael Strack JD, Dr. George McClane & Dean Hawley, 2001, Family Justice Center Alliance, San Diego.

It's claimed that many times (62%) of the time there is no visible mark of strangling. (Now I grasp why the investigators were asking questions about a scarf on the kitchen counter.) But as to how long it takes, more information: From the Family Center Alliance study: Serious injuries can happen quickly:

• Only 8-11 pounds of pressure on the throat area for approximately 10

seconds causes loss of consciousness.

• Within 30 seconds and longer, temporary or permanent brain damage may

occur. Low oxygen to the brain can cause a permanent vegetative state.

Continuous obstruction of the carotid arteries, the jugular veins, or the

airway will produce death by complete loss of oxygen (Asphyxia).

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

BBM
So the body was hoisted with the knotted cord and paint brush handle paraphernalia. The paint brush handle was inserted into a hole. It was the paint brush handle that supported the weight of JB's dead body. Where was the location of the hole that the paint brush handle was inserted into? Ceiling? Wall? Pipe? Did PR need to stand on a chair?

Don't be silly. How would I know where this was done exactly?

I made a brush handle and cord device similar to the one used by Patsy and placed one end into a hole drilled into a stud 2x4 with the cord going all the way to the stud. I placed a 45 pound weight on the cord and the device held the weight. I then pulled the handle out about half an inch a few times testing the weight and it held until 2 1/2" were pulled out then it snapped The end piece was longer probably than the missing end piece in the Ramsey case. I used an old oil brush if memory serves about a number 12.

I then placed the handle between two nails pounded into a stud about 2" apart and placed the handle over that with the cord hanging straight down between the nails. It held the weight easily.