South Africa - Anni Dewani, 28, shot to death, Gugulethu, 13 Nov 2010 #4

[jslk]

Did he get an answer to the last question? Why adjourn before he got a reply?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Cliffhanger [emoji38]

I agree with zweibel - depressing subject matter [emoji17]

 

[zwiebel]

Did he get an answer to the last question? Why adjourn before he got a reply?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I think this was the answer:

Leila Samodien ‏@Leila_Luck 1 hr1 hour ago

#DewaniTrial Mbolombo testifies he didn't know how Anni was to be killed - they never went into such detail.

 

[zwiebel]

Audio overview of this week's proceedings.

http://www.702.co.za/articles/744/dewaniextra-for-week-ending-7-november-2014

 

[zwiebel]

I noticed MM was outright called a liar several times today. But I'm sure I remember Gerry Nel being roundly berated and made to apologise when he just suggested OP (I think) was lying? It made me think counsel weren't allowed to use the term in SA courts.

*There is now an unfortunate story trending in Cape town, illustrated by a photo of nine police officers in cuffs. Accused of taking bribes and destroying evidence (not in this case though).

http://ewn.co.za/2014/11/07/10-CT-police-officials-arrested

 

[newone]

I noticed MM was outright called a liar several times today. But I'm sure I remember Gerry Nel being roundly berated and made to apologise when he just suggested OP (I think) was lying? It made me think counsel weren't allowed to use the term in SA courts.

*There is now an unfortunate story trending in Cape town, illustrated by a photo of nine police officers in cuffs. Accused of taking bribes and destroying evidence (not in this case though).

http://ewn.co.za/2014/11/07/10-CT-police-officials-arrested

bbm
yes....and I thought he was ''badgering'' Tongo too -- that's why the tweet from journos referring to VZ as very much a gentleman and respectful was a bit over the top yesterday MOO

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Yes, can't really see what the court can do with the evidence so far. It's definitely one where there's 'reasonable doubt'. Who else can give evidence for the PT, the police? I can't imagine SD will have confessed to anyone whilst in the UK. Much of the circumstantial evidence is thin e.g. the CCTV in the hotel room with Tongo; if any of us had something pointed out, like cameras, we'd look up at them too. Having said that I do think his ongoing contact with Tongo is fishy, but not evidence of conspiracy to murder.

Tongo bringing the cameras to Dewani's attention could be read a couple of ways, imo. If I were to warn someone about the cameras, it would be because the person is about to do something inappropriate. That's the only explanation I can think of. This undoubtedly is confirmed by Dewani telling the cleaner to leave, so SD wanted to do or say something for which he needs privacy. :dunno:

At the time of the CCTV footage, SD hadn't been informed that Anni was dead. So he wants privacy to talk to the driver about what, to ask Tongo if he knows that Anni is dead? Does he want to discuss his lost helicopter money, that he didn't mention to investigating officers? Why dismiss the cleaner? SD doesn't appear to be emotionally distraught, he's not about to burst into tears. After the cleaner leaves, SD still looks for a moment at the glass door, like we do when we want to make sure they've gone. :dunno:

This doesn't prove he had Anni killed, just that he likes privacy to talk intimately with a man he's known for 48 hours, makes a lot of sense, why anyone would question it is beyond me. :crazy:


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-29918574

 

[patCee]

Thanks Zwiebel, listening to 702, I had forgotten about Bernard Mitchell who was in prison with Tongo, and who told a warden that Tongo had confessed to him that it was meant to be a robbery/hi-jack that went wrong. I guess he'll be another witness for the PT.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I forgot about Bernard Mitchell who was in prison with Tongo, and who told a warden that Tongo had confessed to him that it was meant to be a robbery/hi-jack that went wrong. I guess he'll be another witness for the PT.

Yes, I hope he gives more details, like where they were going to hold her captive. Tongo surely would have divulged the whole the plan especially if he thought it was rather clever, until it went wrong.

I still have a problem with the kidnap hostage story though. These guys, Qwabe and Mnegni are pretty ruthless men, why would her death stop the plan? Most kidnappings the hostage is killed, makes it easier for them to control the situation, sadly. JMO

 

[patCee]

Tongo bringing the cameras to Dewani's attention could be read a couple of ways, imo. If I were to warn someone about the cameras, it would be because the person is about to do something inappropriate. That's the only explanation I can think of. This undoubtedly is confirmed by Dewani telling the cleaner to leave, so SD wanted to do or say something for which he needs privacy. :dunno:

At the time of the CCTV footage, SD hadn't been informed that Anni was dead. So he wants privacy to talk to the driver about what, to ask Tongo if he knows that Anni is dead? Does he want to discuss his lost helicopter money, that he didn't mention to investigating officers? Why dismiss the cleaner? SD doesn't appear to be emotionally distraught, he's not about to burst into tears. After the cleaner leaves, SD still looks for a moment at the glass door, like we do when we want to make sure they've gone. :dunno:

This doesn't prove he had Anni killed, just that he likes privacy to talk intimately with a man he's known for 48 hours, makes a lot of sense, why anyone would question it is beyond me. :crazy:


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-29918574

Agree totally, but not convinced the court will.:thinking:

 

[zwiebel]

BBM

Yes, I hope he gives more details, like where they were going to hold her captive. Tongo surely would have divulged the whole the plan especially if he thought it was rather clever, until it went wrong.

I still have a problem with the kidnap hostage story though. These guys, Qwabe and Mnegni are pretty ruthless men, why would her death stop the plan? Most kidnappings the hostage is killed, makes it easier for them to control the situation, sadly. JMO

Me too. And now I seem to have become caught up in a discussion about it on twitter. The #DewaniTrial tweets will probably still be coming by morning, at this rate......

 

[PrimeSuspect]

BBM



Me too. And now I seem to have become caught up in a discussion about it on twitter. The #DewaniTrial tweets will probably still be coming by morning, at this rate......

I'll get on and check it out. Great points Z. :clap:

 

[patCee]

OT
Thinking of how casually this murder was planned; the lack of value given to individuals and their lives, I can't help thinking about the many refuge's, from the African continent, claiming asylum in Europe. The treacherous journeys they make, even with their children, across the sea in rickety boats. The recent arrivals in the Canary Islands landed in a wooden dinghy with no shelter. These people are not killing others I know, but it's hard to imagine that life is so cheap, and circumstances so dire, that people risk their own and children's lives to get away from their homelands and everything they've ever known.

 

[zwiebel]

OT
Thinking of how casually this murder was planned; the lack of value given to individuals and their lives, I can't help thinking about the many refuge's, from the African continent, claiming asylum in Europe. The treacherous journeys they make, even with their children, across the sea in rickety boats. The recent arrivals in the Canary Islands landed in a wooden dinghy with no shelter. It's hard to imagine that life is so cheap, and circumstances so dire, that people risk their own and children's lives to get away from their homelands and everything they've ever known.

I wrote a story a while ago for Bob's website, about a wealthy US/EU couple cruising in the sunny med. When they saw a winter jacket floating by they were naturally curious and pointed it out to the Captain. He haltingly explained it would be from drowned N. African migrants, who never made the 'dream' European shores. They, and their kids, started up rescue missions where authorities had left off. I thought it was really touching.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

OT
Thinking of how casually this murder was planned; the lack of value given to individuals and their lives, I can't help thinking about the many refuge's, from the African continent, claiming asylum in Europe. The treacherous journeys they make, even with their children, across the sea in rickety boats. The recent arrivals in the Canary Islands landed in a wooden dinghy with no shelter. These people are not killing others I know, but it's hard to imagine that life is so cheap, and circumstances so dire, that people risk their own and children's lives to get away from their homelands and everything they've ever known.

It is very sad patCee, it's just pure luck that we were born in a place and time where we don't have to flee for our lives. I cannot imagine the distress of living under those conditions, facing death for themselves and their children on a daily basis.

 

[patCee]

I wrote a story a while ago for Bob's website, about a wealthy US/EU couple cruising in the sunny med. When they saw a winter jacket floating by they were naturally curious and pointed it out to the Captain. He haltingly explained it would be from drowned N. African migrants, who never made the 'dream' European shores. They, and their kids, started up rescue missions where authorities had left off. I thought it was really touching.

You probably know that rescuing refugees at risk of drowning in the med is an emotional debate in the UK at the moment. It's so easy to think it's not our problem, but then...........

Of course killing for gain as in SA is very different, but just as disturbing in a different way.

 

[jslk]

My brain hurts thinking about this. Monde maintains he knew all along that it was the wife of the 'client' who was to be killed, yet Tongo says he didn't know AH was SD's wife until they found her body the morning after the high jacking/murder. What on earth does this mean? Clearly they can't both be right/telling the truth. But wth is going on?!

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Mbolombo said he heard Tongo mentioning to Qwabe that they would receive R15 000 for the hit and he also wanted something for his efforts.

“As we talked about it, it was R5000, but I didn’t know from who I was going to get it.” Earlier in the day, Mbolombo said there were likely to be people “throwing stones” at him for not appearing truthful.

“To some people, it is nice, it is smooth-sailing. They have got money and it is easy for them to go to other people and bribe someone, and then come to court and tell people that we are telling lies,” he said.

http://mg.co.za/article/2014-11-06-dewani-witnesses-memory-hindu-ceremony-in-question

 

[Britlaws]

Gawd, had to miss most of the afternoon. Just caught up. Well, its a bit of a mess really isn't it. I do agree that getting some small things wrong in a convoluted story after 4 years is to be expected to some extent but there were quite a few inconsistencies... also we start off with the fact that both these guys are admitted liars, which doesn't help their assertions that they are now telling the truth.

I looked at the CCTV of SD and Tongo in the terrace room today, where Tongo points out the camera. This is before SD is informed that Anni is dead. There's another longer video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDjhI9Q3j_g minus the cleaner/cameras bit, where SD looks like he is talking a lot of the time and he is demonstrating hand gestures that are usually present when people are talking. Tongo hardly moves at all and doesn't give the impression that is is talking much. Also, his arms folded across his chest is a quite well known sign that someone is putting a barrier up, indication that perhaps the conversation is not welcome or is confrontational. If all was going 'to plan' if the Tongo's story is correct, why is he so reluctant to engage? after all, he's still waiting to be paid! Well, then consider conversely if SD is innocent, he might himself be suspicious that Tongo might have been involved and start quizzing him - this would clearly be unwelcome on Tongo's part. Maybe he pointed the cameras out hoping to shut SD up. I dunno, but if it went down like Tongo said it did and this bit was just part of the plan, you would have thought he would want to show/feign concern to the cameras etc. to deflect any attention to untypical behaviour.

Of course, if the conversation in this room was 'difficult', it then conflicts with the thankyou card and payment to Tongo later.

I was also thinking about their stories matching. I do believe that they could have hatched a robbery plot and just waited for the right tourist. But, they would still have needed to contact eachother, to add the 'stitching the tourist' up element as this one had gone badly wrong, and to get the stories correct after the event. Do we know where and when they were arrested? i.e. how long did they have?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

My brain hurts thinking about this. Monde maintains he knew all along that it was the wife of the 'client' who was to be killed, yet Tongo says he didn't know AH was SD's wife until they found her body the morning after the high jacking/murder. What on earth does this mean? Clearly they can't both be right/telling the truth. But wth is going on?!

I think it's a language problem. I'm purely guessing, but lets say Tongo said to Mondo, this Dewani gentleman wants a lady killed. In Tongo's mind this is a 'client' and in Mondo's mind, the lady is the wife. jmo

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Gawd, had to miss most of the afternoon. Just caught up. Well, its a bit of a mess really isn't it. I do agree that getting some small things wrong in a convoluted story after 4 years is to be expected to some extent but there were quite a few inconsistencies... also we start off with the fact that both these guys are admitted liars, which doesn't help their assertions that they are now telling the truth.

I looked at the CCTV of SD and Tongo in the terrace room today, where Tongo points out the camera. This is before SD is informed that Anni is dead. There's another longer video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDjhI9Q3j_g minus the cleaner/cameras bit, where SD looks like he is talking a lot of the time and he is demonstrating hand gestures that are usually present when people are talking. Tongo hardly moves at all and doesn't give the impression that is is talking much. Also, his arms folded across his chest is a quite well known sign that someone is putting a barrier up, indication that perhaps the conversation is not welcome or is confrontational. If all was going 'to plan' if the Tongo's story is correct, why is he so reluctant to engage? after all, he's still waiting to be paid! Well, then consider conversely if SD is innocent, he might himself be suspicious that Tongo might have been involved and start quizzing him - this would clearly be unwelcome on Tongo's part. Maybe he pointed the cameras out hoping to shut SD up. I dunno, but if it went down like Tongo said it did and this bit was just part of the plan, you would have thought he would want to show/feign concern to the cameras etc. to deflect any attention to untypical behaviour.

Of course, if the conversation in this room was 'difficult', it then conflicts with the thankyou card and payment to Tongo later.

I was also thinking about their stories matching. I do believe that they could have hatched a robbery plot and just waited for the right tourist. But, they would still have needed to contact eachother, to add the 'stitching the tourist' up element as this one had gone badly wrong, and to get the stories correct after the event. Do we know where and when they were arrested? i.e. how long did they have?

Thank you so much for the link to youtube video. I enjoy reading your posts, makes me think harder.

It's so interesting, I read the situation completely differently. I feel like I'm watching a cold blooded killer talking down to his minion. Dewani keeps looking over his shoulder, acting very shifty for someone who's just been through a hijacking and his wife is presumed dead.
Tongo folding his arms is a kind of protection, Dewani is intimidating and he has that power over others, Anni described him as such, and his defence agreed because there were the texts about him that their client couldn't deny. It's funny, even in a trial where there are so many lies being told, the accused always has to concede at some point, because the charge of murder is much bigger than their ego or pride, which they will have to swallow to walk out a free man. JMO