South Africa - Anni Dewani, 28, shot to death, Gugulethu, 13 Nov 2010 #4

[PrimeSuspect]

Xolile Mngeni was arrested Nov. 17 and Mziwamadoda Qwabe on Nov. 18, 2010.


I'm still listing problems I have believing Dewani, when they come to mind.


Dr Pox Raghavjee was shot on his way home in the town of King William's Town, SA, in November 2007, no money or valuables were taken. BTW, it is still unsolved.

I think it's a bit of stretch to suggest that SD was involved with the Drs death, BUT I find it really peculiar that SD at 27 yrs old, personally knew a man who was carjacked and murdered in South Africa and 3 years later, hires a 'freelance' taxi driver who he secretly told he has R15 000 on him, to take his new wife and himself sightseeing in the middle of the night in the shady area of Cape Town. Is he really that stupid?

Wouldn't Anni have been fearful knowing that Tongo knew the amount of money they were carrying, I know I'd be worried. But then again, SD says Anni didn't know, because it was money for a surprise. So Anni was completely in the dark, literally. She was fed to the wolves like an innocent lamb, makes me quite sad.

This man, Shrien Dewani, born in Bristol, student at Bristol Grammar School and UMIST, qualified as a chartered accountant with Deloitte in London. In 2005 he resigned his position, to help found and run his family's chain of PSP Healthcare old people's homes.

The criminals/killers are not well-educated, poor, have several children to different women, live in crime ridden, poor neighbourhoods, who would do anything for some extra cash. They have some traditional values and superstitions that outsiders might find strange.

Did SD visit the slums of Mumbai in unlicensed taxi's in the middle of night? Has he seen the real India? Or Uganda, Egypt, Thailand just to name a few of the dozens of countries he visited. Oh but that's right, he didn't have a young beautiful wife on his arm who needed protection.

I know of the traditions of Indians also, and their community ties are very strong, and people should not underestimate what one will do to keep in good standing within that community.

JMO

 

[Britlaws]

Thank you so much for the link to youtube video. I enjoy reading your posts, makes me think harder.

It's so interesting, I read the situation completely differently. I feel like I'm watching a cold blooded killer talking down to his minion. Dewani keeps looking over his shoulder, acting very shifty for someone who's just been through a hijacking and his wife is presumed dead.
Tongo folding his arms is a kind of protection, Dewani is intimidating and he has that power over others, Anni described him as such, and his defence agreed because there were the texts about him that their client couldn't deny. It's funny, even in a trial where there are so many lies being told, the accused always has to concede at some point, because the charge of murder is much bigger than their ego or pride, which they will have to swallow to walk out a free man. JMO

LOL I didn't know how to interpret the video! I just thought about it from the SD is innocent and SD is guilty viewpoints and tried to work it out, given the folded arms thing.... and failed! Yes, SD could well have been saying "why the ^&%* did you hire a bunch of morons?.... why didn't you adhere to the agreed plan? why this? why that? but then, that's probably what you would get if you hired the first person you clapped eyes on in SA to get your wife murdered! None of it easily makes sense, from either viewpoint. I still am firmly of the stance that so far SD should be found not guilty and anything else would be a wrongful conviction. However, like most people, when the circumstances aren't clear cut, we still want to know what *actually* happened.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I don't know if you have seen these videos. They are from the Carte Blanche Channel. I cannot find one for Week 3 though.

http://carteblanche.dstv.com/player/510584/

http://carteblanche.dstv.com/player/651824/

http://carteblanche.dstv.com/player/659474/

http://carteblanche.dstv.com/player/675934/

http://carteblanche.dstv.com/player/674074/

I found this link a bit later which has more videos of various days of the Dewani Trial

http://carteblanche.dstv.com/watch/?sort=mostpopular&category=1764

 

[Britlaws]

Xolile Mngeni was arrested Nov. 17 and Mziwamadoda Qwabe on Nov. 18, 2010.

According to wiki, Tongo was arrested same day as Qwabe, so they did have some opportunity to get together. They would have had the call history on eachothers phones as a reference for timings etc. Of course, Mngeni seemed to do his own thing, but Qwabe and Tongo could have got together. Mbolombo could have insisted that he was kept out of it as far as was possible but could have still been part of the discussion.

 

[patCee]

Gawd, had to miss most of the afternoon. Just caught up. Well, its a bit of a mess really isn't it. I do agree that getting some small things wrong in a convoluted story after 4 years is to be expected to some extent but there were quite a few inconsistencies... also we start off with the fact that both these guys are admitted liars, which doesn't help their assertions that they are now telling the truth.

I looked at the CCTV of SD and Tongo in the terrace room today, where Tongo points out the camera. This is before SD is informed that Anni is dead. There's another longer video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDjhI9Q3j_g minus the cleaner/cameras bit, where SD looks like he is talking a lot of the time and he is demonstrating hand gestures that are usually present when people are talking. Tongo hardly moves at all and doesn't give the impression that is is talking much. Also, his arms folded across his chest is a quite well known sign that someone is putting a barrier up, indication that perhaps the conversation is not welcome or is confrontational. If all was going 'to plan' if the Tongo's story is correct, why is he so reluctant to engage? after all, he's still waiting to be paid! Well, then consider conversely if SD is innocent, he might himself be suspicious that Tongo might have been involved and start quizzing him - this would clearly be unwelcome on Tongo's part. Maybe he pointed the cameras out hoping to shut SD up. I dunno, but if it went down like Tongo said it did and this bit was just part of the plan, you would have thought he would want to show/feign concern to the cameras etc. to deflect any attention to untypical behaviour.

Of course, if the conversation in this room was 'difficult', it then conflicts with the thankyou card and payment to Tongo later.

I was also thinking about their stories matching. I do believe that they could have hatched a robbery plot and just waited for the right tourist. But, they would still have needed to contact eachother, to add the 'stitching the tourist' up element as this one had gone badly wrong, and to get the stories correct after the event. Do we know where and when they were arrested? i.e. how long did they have?

Thanks for this Britlaws. The film is very different to the BBC clip I saw, where Tongo points out the CCTV and SD looks up and around. The cleaner appears and SD clearly asks him to leave the room. This one is much longer with no cleaner. SD keeps a distance from Tongo apart from when he briefly walks in front of him to look out of the nearby window. Otherwise he mostly keeps the sofa between them, and fiddles constantly with his phone. They must be talking loudly due to the distance they keep from each other. The far window is open blowing the curtain. SD turns to look at the open window several times. At one point Tongo, who hardly moves, gestures towards the window with one finger. SD is interested and walks back a bit for a closer look. I wondered if he was warned someone could hear through the window. The film lasts for several minutes, and seems quite long. It would be even longer with the cleaner part. Tongo remains almost static throughout, lounging on a sofa, even after SD leaves the room. It's difficult what to make of it, except it's a long conversation just to pay the taxi driver. I don't think it's condolences for the hi-jack as Tongo never leaves his seat. I think he would get up to commiserate with SD, unless of course they have conspired together in the murder. I'm wondering whether the cleaner entered the room at the beginning or the end of this meeting. Strange.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

LOL I didn't know how to interpret the video! I just thought about it from the SD is innocent and SD is guilty viewpoints and tried to work it out, given the folded arms thing.... and failed! Yes, SD could well have been saying "why the ^&%* did you hire a bunch of morons?.... why didn't you adhere to the agreed plan? why this? why that? but then, that's probably what you would get if you hired the first person you clapped eyes on in SA to get your wife murdered! None of it easily makes sense, from either viewpoint. I still am firmly of the stance that so far SD should be found not guilty and anything else would be a wrongful conviction. However, like most people, when the circumstances aren't clear cut, we still want to know what *actually* happened.

I agree, Britlaws, there isn't enough evidence to convict him. If the police held him longer in SA at the time, they could have wired Tongo, to get their proof or not. But even all the stuff I write on here, I will have to walk away with the not guilty decision. More cases to look into.

 

[patCee]

I don't know if you have seen these videos. They are from the Carte Blanche Channel. I cannot find one for Week 3 though.

http://carteblanche.dstv.com/player/510584/

http://carteblanche.dstv.com/player/651824/

http://carteblanche.dstv.com/player/659474/

http://carteblanche.dstv.com/player/675934/

http://carteblanche.dstv.com/player/674074/

I found this link a bit later which has more videos of various days of the Dewani Trial

http://carteblanche.dstv.com/watch/?sort=mostpopular&category=1764

Brilliant, thanks IB, the best I've seen. I've saved them to look at again later.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I don't know if you have seen these videos. They are from the Carte Blanche Channel. I cannot find one for Week 3 though.

http://carteblanche.dstv.com/player/510584/

http://carteblanche.dstv.com/player/651824/

http://carteblanche.dstv.com/player/659474/

http://carteblanche.dstv.com/player/675934/

http://carteblanche.dstv.com/player/674074/

I found this link a bit later which has more videos of various days of the Dewani Trial

http://carteblanche.dstv.com/watch/?sort=mostpopular&category=1764

Thank you IB, going to go through them

 

[emirates1957]

I've done the same cruise with Princess, fantastic. 4 of us did a helicopter trip over Mt Robson on a Rockies tour the week before the cruise. I expected it to be a Chinook, but it was a little glass bubble. It wasn't part of the package though and arranged as a one off through the courier. We were OK with that but wouldn't have done it with a local cab driver. Can't remember how much it was.

Totally agree, as part of our bucket list my husband and I did an ultra light flight over Victoria Falls. We did some research behind it. We had a retired British Airways pilot take us individually for our flight. It's not the sort of thing you look to have discounted or for a pilot wanting to keep off the books. If anything flying goes towards somebodies hours, which is always important.

 

[patCee]

I find it very strange that R15,000 keeps cropping up in conversations...

R15,000 for the murder of Anni
R15,000 for a helicopter ride
R15,000 as a thank you to the staff at the Cape Grace Hotel.

Hi Charles, went back to look for your post here. On one of the 5 videos IB posted (see thread 427) there's a reference to when Tongo took SD to change up some money.
He changed up sterling to the value of..... R15000. thought I'd draw your attention to it. Is it a coincidence or a touch of...OCD

 

[emirates1957]

I wrote a story a while ago for Bob's website, about a wealthy US/EU couple cruising in the sunny med. When they saw a winter jacket floating by they were naturally curious and pointed it out to the Captain. He haltingly explained it would be from drowned N. African migrants, who never made the 'dream' European shores. They, and their kids, started up rescue missions where authorities had left off. I thought it was really touching.

I worked with middle eastern airlines some 18 years ago...weekly we would have refugees arrive stateless after flushing their paperwork down the toilet. I once remember an Ethiopian lady arrive with all of her children's umbilical cords in her baggage, along with letters from family members which we had translated which revealed a life of total tragedy. There is not a day that goes past that I feel blessed.

Once again thank you to all for your outstanding commentary.

 

[jslk]

I think it's a language problem. I'm purely guessing, but lets say Tongo said to Mondo, this Dewani gentleman wants a lady killed. In Tongo's mind this is a 'client' and in Mondo's mind, the lady is the wife. jmo

I think language and translation partly explains some of this, but Tongo actually stated that the woman SD arrived with and the woman he picked up with SD on the Fri(?) night were not the same person, that he was completely convinced the two women were different people; the first one a wife and the second one the business associate who SD wanted killed. So how Monde gets 'wife' from his interactions with Tongo... I am still perplexed!

I completely see the point you're making above, it still doesn't totally convince me. I'm pretty sure that when Monde was being questioned this week, he made it clear that there are different words for woman and wife, and they are not used interchangeably in Xhosa?

 

[patCee]

Pat, if you are in the UK, did you see the Reggie Yates docs on BBC3? the one on knife crime especially sums it all up.

I have been to many countries in Africa, including very poor ones like the ones now ravaged by ebola. But when I went to South Africa and explored all areas, including the townships I was shocked. Apart from a bigger proportion of middle class black south africans, little has changed for millions of people despite 20 years since aparteid was dismantled.

I watched the Reggie Yates docs last night. The townships he visited were Khayelitsha/Gugulethu, where Anni was killed. The 'knife crime', more like machete crime. A 15 year girl worrying about getting gang raped on her way to school. A doctor in the hospital said they were not always fussy about sterilisation, too busy with injuries and not enough equipment. There was a paramedic/ambulance service. Thanks for the reference.
Really impressed by Reggie Yates BTW.

 

[ColonelMustard]

I haven't been back here for awhile.

I just want to thank everyone for their posts, questions, replies, reflections, etc.

I just read through them all.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I watched the Reggie Yates docs last night. The townships he visited were Khayelitsha/Gugulethu, where Anni was killed. The 'knife crime', more like machete crime. A 15 year girl worrying about getting gang raped on her way to school. A doctor in the hospital said they were not always fussy about sterilisation, too busy with injuries and not enough equipment. There was a paramedic/ambulance service. Thanks for the reference.
Really impressed by Reggie Yates BTW.

Thank you Britlaw for recommending the Reggie Yates video, found it on youtube. It's quite horrendous the amount of violence the residents of these townships endure and participate in on a daily basis, the hospital doctors patch them up for them to return next week with new knife injuries, a never ending cycle.

I hope patCee, that Inga perseveres with her studies which will give her the opportunity to escape Khayelitsha with her mother. The little boy clinging to Reggie was just heartbreaking, he's witnessed things a child should never see. :cry:

The young man attacked on his way home wants revenge but is scared the community will kill his attackers in the most brutal way, with necklacing. King Charles described in an earlier post her experience in Mozambique where a man was necklaced. I can't think of a worse way to die, too barbaric for words.

 

[KING Charles]

Hi Charles, went back to look for your post here. On one of the 5 videos IB posted (see thread 427) there's a reference to when Tongo took SD to change up some money.
He changed up sterling to the value of..... R15000. thought I'd draw your attention to it. Is it a coincidence or a touch of...OCD

I looked up Dewani's plea statement of 03/10/14. In it he states that he exchanged money with Western Union
800GP to R.8242.25
Then according to him he then took 5000 sterling to change money on the black market accompanied by Tonga. When he realised that he wasn't going to get a good exchange rate he then decided to only exchange
1000GP to R.10,500
He now as in cash R18,742 plus 4000 sterling in his pockets. Plus of course any money that we have not been made aware of.

He also says in his statement that on meeting Tongo and the pilot re: the helicoptor ride he only intended to offer half the amount of the money up front and pay the rest later, but would hand over R10,000 if pushed.

On the night of the murder he said he had the money for the helicopter ride but had a hard time fitting it in his pockets and so he gave the money to Anni to put in her handbag. Only his word for this as Anni can not obviously confirm it.

Tongo says in his statement that Monde said he wanted R5000 for organising the hitmen and should only pay them R10,000.
Also it was supposed to be in the glove compartment or in the pocket of the front seat, but Dewani states it was put in Anni's handbag.

So apart from R15,000 keep reoccurring, we now have the R10,000 where I have bolded.

The more I think about these things the more strange it seems and the more curious I become.

 

[KING Charles]

Re the CCTV video of Tongo and S.D.

It is interesting how we form different views when watching T.V. footage. Thank you Britlaws for posting it.

When I watched it I felt Tongo was quite calm, he had his legs crossed at the ankles and his hands seemed to come together almost resting on his bellybutton area or stomach for a better word. He seemed relaxed and stayed in that position more or less throughout the video.
Dewani on the other hand seemed furtive, the way he looked at the camera and also at the door (the same one the cleaner went out off) many times, as though he was worried about someone coming in unexpected. When the curtain blew out because the patio door was open he seemed on edge as though he thought there might be someone there.

I may have got it all wrong though, and I am not accusing him of being guilty just because of a short video. To be honest as yet I have not heard enough evidence to prove his guilt.

It is like many people reading the same book, but we all visualise it differently in our minds.

JMO

 

[Britlaws]

I looked up Dewani's plea statement of 03/10/14. In it he states that he exchanged money with Western Union
800GP to R.8242.25
Then according to him he then took 5000 sterling to change money on the black market accompanied by Tonga. When he realised that he wasn't going to get a good exchange rate he then decided to only exchange
1000GP to R.10,500
He now as in cash R18,742 plus 4000 sterling in his pockets. Plus of course any money that we have not been made aware of.

He also says in his statement that on meeting Tongo and the pilot re: the helicoptor ride he only intended to offer half the amount of the money up front and pay the rest later, but would hand over R10,000 if pushed.

On the night of the murder he said he had the money for the helicopter ride but had a hard time fitting it in his pockets and so he gave the money to Anni to put in her handbag. Only his word for this as Anni can not obviously confirm it.

Tongo says in his statement that Monde said he wanted R5000 for organising the hitmen and should only pay them R10,000.
Also it was supposed to be in the glove compartment or in the pocket of the front seat, but Dewani states it was put in Anni's handbag.

So apart from R15,000 keep reoccurring, we now have the R10,000 where I have bolded.

The more I think about these things the more strange it seems and the more curious I become.

He says in the statement that he took with him R10,000 to pay half the cost of the helicopter (R7500), the full R10,000 if pushed. He then says he has a further R4000 - Rand not sterling, which was going to use for dinner, to pay Tongo R1000 agreed for the night along with anything else. Mngeni confirms the R4000 sum, as he says thats all there was. Personally I think Mngeni was stitched up like a kipper by Quabe, who I think kept the R10000 for himself and then he and Mngeni split the R4000. However, when Tongo enquired about the money, Quabe told him that they only got R10,000 so his cut wasn't there. So, if this was the pre planned robbery scenario that SD was not involved in, then the crooks would know the amounts of cash involved to weave into their stories.

Gawd, I hope I remember all that correctly!!

 

[patCee]

Re the CCTV video of Tongo and S.D.

It is interesting how we form different views when watching T.V. footage. Thank you Britlaws for posting it.

When I watched it I felt Tongo was quite calm, he had his legs crossed at the ankles and his hands seemed to come together almost resting on his bellybutton area or stomach for a better word. He seemed relaxed and stayed in that position more or less throughout the video.
Dewani on the other hand seemed furtive, the way he looked at the camera and also at the door (the same one the cleaner went out off) many times, as though he was worried about someone coming in unexpected. When the curtain blew out because the patio door was open he seemed on edge as though he thought there might be someone there.

I may have got it all wrong though, and I am not accusing him of being guilty just because of a short video. To be honest as yet I have not heard enough evidence to prove his guilt.

It is like many people reading the same book, but we all visualise it differently in our minds.

JMO

That's exactly what I thought when I watched it again. Almost as though it was Tongo in control of the situation, rather than SD, if it was one or the other.

 

[patCee]

Thank you Britlaw for recommending the Reggie Yates video, found it on youtube. It's quite horrendous the amount of violence the residents of these townships endure and participate in on a daily basis, the hospital doctors patch them up for them to return next week with new knife injuries, a never ending cycle.

I hope patCee, that Inga perseveres with her studies which will give her the opportunity to escape Khayelitsha with her mother. The little boy clinging to Reggie was just heartbreaking, he's witnessed things a child should never see. :cry:

The young man attacked on his way home wants revenge but is scared the community will kill his attackers in the most brutal way, with necklacing. King Charles described in an earlier post her experience in Mozambique where a man was necklaced. I can't think of a worse way to die, too barbaric for words.

I think Inga will do well, intelligent/conscientious. Reggie was more concerned about the little boy, no one else seemed concerned. Sad.