Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #1

[CoverMeCagney]

 

[10ofRods]

She had 1.5 hrs befor darkness to go wherever she wanted to go. If she did not go to the Refuge, but in another direction, she had her tent that she could pitch wherever she needed it. The tent has not been found.

Respectfully snipped for focus


IMO most likely something happened to her between the top of the Salvaguardia and the Refuge that prevented her from using her tent and her phone.

She had 1.5 hours to still go up - the skier saw her going up, and he said they saw no one else going up, as it was late in the day. He also said he figured it would take her about 1.5 hours to get to the top.

My concern is that she descended at dusk and little light. IME, going down is always more treacherous than going on (and the stats on accidents in the mountains support that view).

I agree that it's most likely something happened on the way down Salvaguardia. However, it is very strange, as others have said that if she fell, she didn't drop her poles. Nothing has been said about her wearing a hydration pack or how she was getting water over a 2-3 day trek.

Pitching the tent along that trail would have required some judgment, that's for sure. The trail itself is relatively level, but people don't usually pitch tents right on a trail, as early morning hikers would be very inconvenienced by it (and I'm assuming it could be windy).

At any rate, it seems she never pitched her tent.

 

[otto]

Looking at her walking poles, we can see that her hand slips into the grip. The poles wouldn't necessarily be dropped if she slipped. In fact, she would probably hold onto them tighter to try to break her fall similar to skiers. If she had a full tumble, I would expect them to come off her hands at some point, but I doubt that a walking pole would be noticed from an air search.

(image posted upthread)

 

[CoverMeCagney]

To try to clarify what I believe to be the case. I have seen two pictures that were taken on 22nd and commented on it up thread. Both had the open neck top, both had the pack on and water tube visible, and they were taken in opposite directions. One of these was the one sent that was published as being sent to Dan, but it appears she actually sent two. The sun indicates late afternoon.

In addition there is a set of photos posted on Instagram on 21st and definitely also on Sauvegard. Included in these are two of Esther, in both she is wearing a round neck jacket and is not wearing her pack. The angle of the sun indicates earlier in the day.

All the above pictures are flipped (I unflipped them to work out the direction of the sun)

Please show me the two taken on 22nd. I have only ever seen the one Dan posted about.

EDIT my bad, it's the same two I just posted. Losing my mind...

 

[Recliner]

I’m not answering to any particular post but just adding a few snippets of information based on my own experiences in the light of things that have been mentioned on this thread. I have walked and camped in UK and France including the Pyrenees , although not in this specific part. I now live about 100km from the Pyrenees

Walking alone

I prefer some company but have walked alone and slept in mountain cabins without feeling any sense of fear. Many people do it and it is no riskier than many other sports like snow-boarding, windsurfing. Parachuting etc.

Talking to strangers

This is quite common in the mountains although the level of communication can vary for no particular reason. I’ve shared refuge bunkrooms with people done no more than exchanged pleasanrtries but on other occasions talked for a few hours, taken photos/had photos taken, shared food and beer. I’ve given lifts to people, even lone female travellers so I see nothing inherently sinister in any of this behaviour.

Predator

There have been cases of walkers being targeted but tis has largely been on the lower level trails where such as Compostella where there are far more walkers and hence potential victims. High level trails means high effort and risk for little reward so unlikely to appeal to a potential abductor. Even if a predator found a potential victim, the chances of abducting them from the mountain is nigh on impossible. Even if they lured them down the chances of succeeding and avoiding detection is high risk.

Terrain

Given the openness and visibility I can understand how SAR would feel that if she was there, they would have seen her, however there are still nooks around rocks and some shrubbery that could conceal someone. If someone was injured or ill and managed to crawl to shelter and hunker down before falling unconscious.

This is no criticism of SAR who take great risks and are seriously committed to their task but it is possible they missed something in spite of their diligence.

Lakes/water

There are many lakes and pools which are an obvious hazard but not my preferred theory here. Often then are still and clear with no current with little algae at this time of year. I recall a walk a few years back when I could see something in a lake that looked like a submerged tent a few feel beneath the surface, maybe blown away in the wind, so shapes can be visible beneath the water especially from the air.

Daylight

There is some talk of darkness coming an hour after her last photo. I’m guessing there are a many UK posters here who may be just adding the extra hour for CET but the latitude means that winter evening are not quite as dark here. I live in the sticks and this evening at 6pm with part cloud I could still make out trees and unlit houses at 500 metres. Not ideal walking conditions but by no means pitch darkness. The refuge was very doable from the summit especially for an experienced walker.


Of course, absolutely anything is possible but on balance I feel the poor lady has suffered an accident of some kind.
My opinions of course are worth no more than any others but I hope you may find something useful here.

Peace

 

[Grouse]

Please show me the two taken on 22nd. I have only ever seen the one Dan posted about.

Post #329 in this thread Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020

Edit: there was some debate as to whether they were taken on the same day and I think we established they were due to the sun and things like her hair.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Deleted, I was confused!

 

[Tortoise]

RSBM
I agree that it's most likely something happened on the way down Salvaguardia. However, it is very strange, as others have said that if she fell, she didn't drop her poles. Nothing has been said about her wearing a hydration pack or how she was getting water over a 2-3 day trek.

BBM Her water pouch can be seen on the table in this photo posted on the 18th Nov -

https://www.facebook.com/estheranddan/photos/p.1474636742733703/1474636742733703/?type=3

 

[Grouse]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

With respect I think I am correct on this . Both of those were on 22nd. They were taken at the same time of day once you allow for the fact they are facing opposite directions.

I can see now where the confusion may be, as the photos on Instagram of her on 21st are quite similar looking at first glance. But looking closer they are distinct due to the absence of pack, neckline etc. There is no pic on 21st on IG that I can see that features the pack/water tube. If I've missed that please show me.

 

[10ofRods]

I use an MSR filter. Lightweight hikers these days often use a set up where you fill a water bladder with the dirty water and then squeeze the water through the filter. Alternatively, they hang the dirty water bag upside down, and let the water drip through the filter and into a clean water bottle.
Sometimes people use tablets or UV light.
All of these methods (except a set up like the one I use) requires reaching over to fill a bottle. You could tie the bottle to a piece of cord, fling the bottle into the lake and then fish it out, but I’ve tried this myself (so I could get water a few feet away from shoreline) and found it maddening.
IMO the odds that ED fell in while getting water are substantial. Several Osprey pack designs pull your weight back and away from your core. The one ED has is one of those styles. The pack could very easily have toppled her over because of how it’s designed.
I want to make clear this is different from saying “she was carrying a heavy pack and this facilitated an accident.” IMO ED’s pack was not heavy. It looks way bigger than it is, because of the design. It has a big air scoop against the back. This is the “catastrophe waiting to happen” that I’m referring to. With all that air against the back, the heavy stuff sits away from the core. Just a little nudge, and you can be thrown backwards. You may have seen people on the trail with packs like these: they jerk with every step.

I mentioned that ED’s pack was not as heavy as other posters are thinking. She had ultralight gear. She evidently wasn’t carrying much food, so very little food weight. She may not have been carrying much water, expecting to re-supply at the refuge. I reckon the pack weighed max 25 lbs.

I mentioned the Osprey scooped pack design might make a person tip over if there was a stumble, trip, slip, or reach over water, but another way to have this happen, I suppose, would be while you were putting it on, especially if you flung it and didn’t lift the weight over your core. Suppose she got a little wild and unthinking while she put it on in a dangerous spot?

She might even have taken her pack off if she stopped to pee.... Some women do this.

Edited to correct for fact.

I am assuming she had a similar set-up to yours and that means she had to descend from the trail to the lake. It sounds easy, but I believe Montagnette Lake is the only nearby source of water (if she stayed on trail). She would have needed enough to go up to Sauvegard and then either back down to the trailhead or onward to the refuge. If she was using the "tie string

Is there water at the refuge? I'm very curious. I'm hoping someone knows. And whether people were melting snow for water before going onward.

Thank you so much for explaining the point about the air scoop (and what it does to the weight of the back). Personally, there's no way I could pee with anything but a lightweight pack. Esther had the yoga skills, so maybe 25 pounds wouldn't be too much for her.

How much water do you think she would have carried if her goal was the refuge that night?

I'm still confused about her two trips up that same, relatively accessible mountain when I thought her original plan was rather different.

In national park (US) research, going off trail to take a picture is one of the leading accident-causers for women. Sauvegarde does have a lot of picture-worthy spots along the trail.

 

[Grouse]

Is there water at the refuge? I'm very curious. I'm hoping someone knows. And whether people were melting snow for water before going onward.

Hi yes there is water at the refuge - see upthread, I posted on that including link to the refuge

 

[10ofRods]

Looking at her walking poles, we can see that her hand slips into the grip. The poles wouldn't necessarily be dropped if she slipped. In fact, she would probably hold onto them tighter to try to break her fall similar to skiers. If she had a full tumble, I would expect them to come off her hands at some point, but I doubt that a walking pole would be noticed from an air search.

(image posted upthread)

View attachment 275398

View attachment 275399

Both points well taken. I'm just thinking about the part of a bad fall where there's no way the falling person still has control of their hands. Getting tangled up in one's own poles, in addition to falling, would not be fun. I'm thinking of a more vertical fall, though. You're right - they likely wouldn't see a pole or two from the air. Indeed, entire persons have been missed from the air.

Presumably, though, if she fell right off the trail, on-ground searchers could see her in most spots? Unless she went into a crevasse or a lake (both of which have been suggested in MSM by rangers/searchers).

 

[CoverMeCagney]

With respect I think I am correct on this . Both of those were on 22nd. They were taken at the same time of day once you allow for the fact they are facing opposite directions.

I can see now where the confusion may be, as the photos on Instagram of her on 21st are quite similar looking at first glance. But looking closer they are distinct due to the absence of pack, neckline etc. There is no pic on 21st on IG that I can see that features the pack/water tube. If I've missed that please show me.

I am SO sorry. Now I've looked at the necklines on 21st, you're right, they're different. Higher neck on 21st. I must've missed a memo. I'll edit my posts to avoid confusing people reading them!!

So... where did the second photo come from? Do we have a source?

This changes everything for me. The only thing that made me question whether Esther actually went up to the top on 22nd, was because I thought she'd sent yesterdays photo.

Thanks for explaining

 

[Grouse]

I am SO sorry. Now I've looked at the necklines on 21st, you're right, they're different. Higher neck on 21st. I must've missed a memo. I'll edit my posts to avoid confusing people reading them!!

So... where did the second photo come from? Do we have a source?

This changes everything for me. The only thing that made me question whether Esther actually went up to the top on 22nd, was because I thought she'd sent yesterdays photo.

Thanks for explaining

No problem and you are very welcome, I'm starting to see double on this myself now . There is so much information upthread now that it's all getting a bit confused.

Edit: re the second photo that just sort of appeared I think one one of the newspaper websites (Mail or Sun I think) and then got included on here. It threw me at first as I'd assumed Dan had only received one photo but it must have been two.

 

[patCee]

But suppose she decided to come back down to her van rather than continue with her previous plan.

Sorry this was a reply that went to the wrong place.

 

[RickshawFan]

Pitching the tent along that trail would have required some judgment, that's for sure. The trail itself is relatively level, but people don't usually pitch tents right on a trail, as early morning hikers would be very inconvenienced by it (and I'm assuming it could be windy).

At any rate, it seems she never pitched her tent.

Snipped for focus

I don't have any evidence for an answer, but I wonder if ED tried to sleep out without a tent? This would be described as a bivouac.

Also, is the refuge on a spur trail? If so, in the dark, she might have hiked right by on the main trail. And maybe have gotten VERY confused.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Jeez this thread is a bit chaotic and I've probably caused part of it! I got so mixed up about the photos / dates, so have reported a few of my posts for mods to tidy up. Apologies if I misled anyone else along the way.

Really hope we get some proper clarification from LBT on Monday.

 

[RickshawFan]

Looking at her walking poles, we can see that her hand slips into the grip. The poles wouldn't necessarily be dropped if she slipped. In fact, she would probably hold onto them tighter to try to break her fall similar to skiers. If she had a full tumble, I would expect them to come off her hands at some point, but I doubt that a walking pole would be noticed from an air search.

(image posted upthread)

View attachment 275398

View attachment 275399

For clarity, I'm not saying some poles don't come with loops on the handles. AFAIK all trekking poles have webbing loops on the handles. I'm saying hikers often don't use the loops for safety reasons.
I will say, though, that the poles in that photo of ED are the style usually used for nordic skiing. With that palm grip on them, ED might have been tempted to put them over her hands, but this would be exactly problematic in an accident. If they snagged on the "wrong" trailside feature, they'd quick as a wink jettison you off the trail. And You can't get them off quickly! And what if your hand broke?
[I am speaking from experience in this and other posts in this thread about gear. I own and use both these styles of poles myself: the X-country ski version and the hiking/trekking/trail running version.]

 

[Deleted member 277705]

In both lenses, where the frame curves near her nose, does anyone see 1) a black labrador type dog with white lead around neck and 2) figure of a man, with short white hair ?

 

[Huffbuff]

“Her water pouch can be seen on the table in this photo posted on the 18th Nov -“

Thanks! I /knew/ I had seen a pic of her water pouch on the table but couldn’t find it ... it was added in the comments.