sub shows Brokeback Mtn to 8th graders

[Nova]

Love_Mama,

Have you seen this movie? How in the world is it politically correct?

In fact, the "politically correct" criticized the film vehemently, arguing that it falls in the tradition of movies where gay characters are miserable, doomed and often end up dead.

They have a point, but my personal view is that there are many representations of gays nowadays and Brokeback doesn't carry the burden of being the only image most people know.

(Just in case anyone is arriving late: none of this means it is an appropriate film for children.)

 

[Texana]

As a teacher I'm always amazed at what my colleagues--both certified and uncertified substitute/support staff type--will do to end their careers in education. I always wonder why they just don't take out their contracts or their certificates and burn them--if they want to go down in flames.

Just another what were you thinking? action with this movie.

I do know some teachers are convinced they know better than their administrators and the parents. It is a kind of arrogance--not a "I know more calculus" confidence, but a "I know better for these students." Sometimes they don't have children themselves as well, but that's no excuse. It is a very obvious disdain for being restrained or restricted. I know I am saying this vaguely but when you talk to these people that is one of the things that comes across.

I have three or so rules for making decisions: First, what's the policy. If it's against policy, don't do it. I would be left high and dry when something goes wrong.

Secondly, imagine myself explaining to my principal or higher up--worse yet--why I made that decision. If it sounds incredibly stupid as I give my reasons, then I don't do it or allow it, or stop it, whatever the case may be.

Finally, I picture myself on high-def tv, leading the evening news, my id photo, followed by the words...."A Smith County Consolidated Independent School teacher today..." If I think the viewers' reactions would be "What an idiot," I don't do that.

That is usually enough to motivate me to make the right decision. :waitasec: Lord willing I'll keep making the right ones.

 

[Marthatex]

If the qualifications are very minimal for a substitute teacher; and most districts desperately need them, can we really hold them accountable for doing something totally dumb? Other than never have that person back again?

I do think that all subs should have to undergo a training course. We get what we pay for sometimes.

 

[Marthatex]

Love_Mama,

Have you seen this movie? How in the world is it politically correct?

I think she may have meant it was an "uncomfortable subject" made more palatable for adults by putting it in the "Cowboy" setting, and it didn't really show too much actual sexual contact.

It wasn't really Hollywood that came up with that idea, it was Annie Proulx; though I haven't read it so I don't know if her book is more explicit. But the Cowboy setting, (in the 50's?, 60's?) is her invention.

 

[sherri79]

If the qualifications are very minimal for a substitute teacher; and most districts desperately need them, can we really hold them accountable for doing something totally dumb? Other than never have that person back again?

I do think that all subs should have to undergo a training course. We get what we pay for sometimes.

yes. we can hold any adult who want to work with kids accountable for being a total idiot.

 

[Marthatex]

yes. we can hold any adult who want to work with kids accountable for being a total idiot.

Really? What are you going to do, barring they do something criminal.

Clearly they should be given a set of expectations, and I assume they'll be kicked off the sub list or never asked back by the school.

My point is many substitutes have not been trained to work with children, and do not have the same qualifications as certified teachers. Also the pay is probably somewhat low.

 

[sherri79]

Clearly they should be given a set of expectations, and I assume they'll be kicked off the sub list or never asked back by the school.

that is accountability. dont follow rules and you will be fired. works for burger king should work for our schools. are you really saying that because we dont pay subs enough they dont have to use their brain at all? do i expect a sub to be a expert in the suject they teach ? nope. they are a sub not a teacher. do i expect them to know as much as the kid working at block buster? yep. if you need a GED to sub then you should have enough brains to not show a R rated movie to a 12 year old. i worked in fast food for 7 years as a cashier. i got paid crap. i still did my job and used my brain. if my 9th grade education can figure ot that 12 is not a good age for R rated movies then this lady coulda figured it out. if she did not know it was wrong she was overpaid imo.

 

[angelmom]

I picture myself on high-def tv, leading the evening news, my id photo, followed by the words...."A Smith County Consolidated Independent School teacher today..." If I think the viewers' reactions would be "What an idiot," I don't do that.

That is usually enough to motivate me to make the right decision. :waitasec: Lord willing I'll keep making the right ones.

LOL! That is almost exactly how I describe making tough parenting decisions!

If I were watching this story on the news about a total stranger, would I be saying, "Oh that poor family!" or "Who let them have kids?" Clarity comes quickly.

 

[Marthatex]

that is accountability. dont follow rules and you will be fired. works for burger king should work for our schools. are you really saying that because we dont pay subs enough they dont have to use their brain at all? do i expect a sub to be a expert in the suject they teach ? nope. they are a sub not a teacher. do i expect them to know as much as the kid working at block buster? yep. if you need a GED to sub then you should have enough brains to not show a R rated movie to a 12 year old. i worked in fast food for 7 years as a cashier. i got paid crap. i still did my job and used my brain. if my 9th grade education can figure ot that 12 is not a good age for R rated movies then this lady coulda figured it out. if she did not know it was wrong she was overpaid imo.

No, I was not saying they don't have to use their brain. It seems you're putting words in my mouth. But they may not know what is appropriate for different age levels, as a mother would for instance, or a certified teacher.

Substitute teachers are not well paid; you don't make a living at it; they are not formally trained. She made a very stupid decision and perhaps a moral decision, obviously; but they are not all a rocket scientist. This person may not have children herself; she may have been very young, I have no idea. I do know that people who don't have children themselves might not make the best decision. Now HURTING or ABUSING a child; that's inexcusable; but showing an inappropriate movie is very poor judgment but definitely not a "felony offense".

I was simply asking questions, if you go back and read - I'm not defending her; I said at the beginning of this thread it was absolutely inappropriate for that grade level. But most agreed it would be far more inexcusable if a certified teacher had done such a thing.

The same with low-paid workers in dept. stores or restaurants; sometimes you get lousy service. It's not universal, but often we get better performance from motivated and higher paid individuals.

I'm saying we need to upgrade substitute teacher training and pay, if possible, but most school districts don't have the money for that.

 

[sherri79]

No, I was not saying they don't have to use their brain. But they may not know what is appropriate for different age levels, as a mother would for instance, or a certified teacher.

Substitute teachers are not well paid; you don't make a living at it; they are not formally trained. She made a very stupid decision and perhaps a moral decision, obviously; but they are not all a rocket scientist. This person may not have children herself; she may have been very young, I have no idea. I do know that people who don't have children themselves might not make the best decision.

I was simply asking questions, if you go back and read - I'm not defending her I said at the beginning of this thread it was absolutely inappropriate for that grade level. But most agreed it would be far more inexcusable if a certified teacher had done such a thing.

The same with low-paid workers in dept. stores or restaurants; sometimes you get lousy service. You get what you pay for.

I'm saying we need to upgrade substitute teacher training and pay, if possible, but most school districts don't have the money for that.

dont forget the details involved. she asked that the door be closed then said "what happens here stays here then showed the movie. to me that implies she knew it was wrong. she just did not care. morals dont come with a higher pay check or a higher education.

 

[Texana]

But with a higher paycheck, you can get a more qualified and intelligent substitute pool.

It's the supply and demand graph, basically.

Remember, subs are not guaranteed work. You are asking people to be on call, ut not necessarily get paid as much as they might want to work.

I tutor about 1/2 the year at school now, and sub the other days, and some weeks I get asked 3x to sub one day, but perhaps not the next day.

It's hard to get motivated and quality people with inconsistency.

 

[Texana]

LOL! That is almost exactly how I describe making tough parenting decisions!

If I were watching this story on the news about a total stranger, would I be saying, "Oh that poor family!" or "Who let them have kids?" Clarity comes quickly.

Ohl, exactly! If your first reaction is "Who let them have kids, or supervision of kids?" you know you need to say NO quickly to whatever it is you were thinking or the kids were proposing!

I was subbing a week ago, and the kids in the next classroom, whom I knew well, wanted to hide behind their desks, with lights off, and say "Happy Teacher Appreciation Day" to their teacher when she walked in. (I don't know where she was,. that's another thread.)

I told them that when I pictured our principal's face repeating, 'SO....the kids wanted to put out the lights...and you LET them...."
it just makes the decision easy for me.

 

[Marthatex]

dont forget the details involved. she asked that the door be closed then said "what happens here stays here then showed the movie. to me that implies she knew it was wrong. she just did not care. morals dont come with a higher pay check or a higher education.

Right, I have forgotten that. Was she young? This may have been mentioned but I have the theory that SHE wanted to watch the movie; that she was quite immature.

If she KNEW she was doing something wrong that's definitely worse that being just "stupid" or "bad judgment".

But that's what MORALS are, your opinion of what's right or wrong. Well, definitely she should not be a substitute teacher.

 

[Marthatex]

But with a higher paycheck, you can get a more qualified and intelligent substitute pool.

It's the supply and demand graph, basically.

Remember, subs are not guaranteed work. You are asking people to be on call, ut not necessarily get paid as much as they might want to work.

I tutor about 1/2 the year at school now, and sub the other days, and some weeks I get asked 3x to sub one day, but perhaps not the next day.

It's hard to get motivated and quality people with inconsistency.

That's true. What's amazing is that there are not more fiascos; maybe we just don't hear about them.

 

[Nova]

I think she may have meant it was an "uncomfortable subject" made more palatable for adults by putting it in the "Cowboy" setting, and it didn't really show too much actual sexual contact.

It wasn't really Hollywood that came up with that idea, it was Annie Proulx; though I haven't read it so I don't know if her book is more explicit. But the Cowboy setting, (in the 50's?, 60's?) is her invention.

The film and the Proulx novella are roughly equal in terms of graphicness, i.e., not very in either case.

Actually, I think the Western setting made the movie more transgressive, not more palatable. Many, many people felt the film was taking on a "sacred" American icon in the cowboy. (More thoughtful viewers and readers pointed out that the two men aren't really "cowboys." They are part-time sheep herders and not even very good at that.)

But in any event, I didn't get the impression that was what Love_Mama meant.

 

[Marthatex]

The film and the Proulx novella are roughly equal in terms of graphicness, i.e., not very in either case.

Actually, I think the Western setting made the movie more transgressive, not more palatable. Many, many people felt the film was taking on a "sacred" American icon in the cowboy. (More thoughtful viewers and readers pointed out that the two men aren't really "cowboys." They are part-time sheep herders and not even very good at that.)

But in any event, I didn't get the impression that was what Love_Mama meant.

WELL, OK, WHATEVER --

I WAS TRYING SO HARD TO BE INTELLECTUAL. SHEESH. :blowkiss:

My own personal opinion is that the cowboy setting made it more PC; but I'll think about it. (When I have time to think, which is not now) Now I shall proceed to look up the word, "transgressive" in the dictionary.

It's a good thing I'm just a dumb teacher!!!!

 

[Nova]

WELL, OK, WHATEVER...

I'm sorry, Martha. I thought we were just chatting. I wasn't trying to correct you, just expressing my opinion.

I looked up the word for you:

trans·gres·sive (trăns-grĕs'ĭv, trănz-) pronunciation
adj.

1. Exceeding a limit or boundary, especially of social acceptability.
2. Of or relating to a genre of fiction, filmmaking, or art characterized by graphic depictions of behavior that violates socially acceptable norms, often involving violence, drug use, and sexual deviancy.
3. Of or relating to geological transgression.

transgressively trans·gres'sive·ly adv.

Either meaning 1 or 2 fits in the way I used the word.

 

[Marthatex]

I'm sorry, Martha. I thought we were just chatting. I wasn't trying to correct you, just expressing my opinion.

I looked up the word for you:



Either meaning 1 or 2 fits in the way I used the word.

Oh, Nova; I was just joshin' and trying to be silly.

I was frustrated not to know that word tho'. Thanks, I already looked it up and learned a new word. Actually I love to learn new words, but not when I'm "pressured" for time.

You see, I'll try to explain it but it's hard: I was just trying to think of why Love Mama would think the movie was P.C. - because everyone really REACTED to that thought.

And now I realize, it's all a matter of how you DEFINE "P.C.", because I was thinking more along the lines of "making it desirable to see in Hollywood", as being PC, whereas I see what you're saying - that the Cowboy Setting actually made it UN-P.C. for SOME people. Does that makes sense?

But I am not SOME people, because I'm not bothered by gayness really, so I found the Cowboy idea intriquing, and the scenery, so THAT is part of what attracted me to the theatre, not the gay theme, per se.

I have not read the book, but would like to, so basically I am of NO authority there as you are, but I did see the movie and was quite entranced by it and the way it was done.

Does that explain what I'm thinking, dear Nova? I ALWAYS love your explanations for things and literary interpretations. :blowkiss:

P.S. I have read the Shipping News, and (the one about Bob Dollar), set in West Texas, that's a really interesting one of Proulx's also.

 

[Nova]

Oh, Nova; I was just joshin' and trying to be silly...

I believe I've read everything Annie Proulx has published, at least in book form. I first read the Brokeback novella (you can easily read it in one sitting) and was so thrilled by the quality of the writing, I just kept reading.

Is the "Bob Dollar" book Ace in the Hole? I loved that and Shipping News as well. Accordion Tales is also very interesting: it's really about the immigrant experience, but it follows each owner of an accordion transported from Sicily to the U.S.

I'm speculating the same as you are (and I may be being unfair to Love_Mama), but my interpretation of her "PC" remark was that anything that is at all sympathetic to homosexuals must be a case of "liberal" political correctness. If I understood her correctly, considering that both men suffer enormously in both versions of the Brokeback tale, her "PC" appraisal is pretty funny.

 

[2sisters]

I have been reading this thread and just now decided to jump in. It is irrelevant that this was a movie about homosexuality but that's really why some people are upset about it. God forbid we should admit homosexuality exisits. My beef with showing this movie is that it was R rated and that's the only reason whay folks should be upset about it. This is the MPAA rating for it: Rated R for sexuality, nudity, language and some violence. Of couse I don't recall any nudity in it but if they say it had it then I belive them. Not saying that you are all upset b/c of the homosexuality in it but thats the vibe I got from the Fox folks and all. So don't think I mean ya'll!