The actual vs. desired outcome

[Rino]

How about if it were a black family that did not live like the Ramseys, but lived in the South Bronx and had no history of violence.

Tough one because I think this case is so famous because of their lifestyle, wealth and Jonbenetts pagentry.

If the Ramseys were poor and lived a more humble-beauty is not everything lifestyle, would we be discussing this case?:waitasec:

 

[Solace]

Tough one because I think this case is so famous because of their lifestyle, wealth and Jonbenetts pagentry.

If the Ramseys were poor and lived a more humble-beauty is not everything lifestyle, would we be discussing this case?:waitasec:

I think - Yes, to a degree. It would be a case where it was brought up every once in a while, e.g. the Ramsey case where a child was found in the basement - that type of thing.

Their wealth plays an enormous part and also the fact that it is not just a murder, there is staging and defiling going on. THE CASE IS BIZARRE. It really is. And the head wound is just brutal - looks like she was shot.

 

[Solace]

Bold above -- please provide a list or a link to where we might find the information that supports your statement. I've studied this case a long, long time and I don't see your statement as factual. I see it as a sweeping generalization made because your opinion is Patsy didn't write the note. The QDE reports I've read indicate that Patsy can not be excluded. I don't expect the defense to produce evidence Patsy wrote the note so that judgment must also be considered. Please don't use the boondoogle statement that "on a scale of one to five the probability Patsy didn't write the note is a four," (or words to that effect). That is hogwash. There is no such scale in the world of forensic QDE reports except for those who want to work on-the-fly and "puff their wares." It was a scale a Ramsey attorney made-up to emphasize his argument as being correct. I believe Hunter also supported the statement, which in my opinion made him further look as if he didn't know much about forensic QDE reports -- please correct me if I'm wrong about Hunter.

Yes, please do Holdon. :slap:

 

[BOESP]

Tough one because I think this case is so famous because of their lifestyle, wealth and Jonbenetts pagentry.

If the Ramseys were poor and lived a more humble-beauty is not everything lifestyle, would we be discussing this case?:waitasec:

Rino, what gets me is all that money was spent yet the best attorneys and their hired PI's couldn't come up with an Intruder to prosecute, not even after almost eleven years. A reasonable person might assume an Intruder would have been prosecuted long ago if said Intruder had left any viable evidence.

Based on data in JonBenet's autopsy, no intruding pedophile molested her. While I am not convinced about the circumstances of her death, I am convinced beyond reasonable doubt that at the very least her parents know/knew what happened to her. I would never want to see an innocent person prosecuted but in this case, I think the justice system failed JonBenet. It also caused a lot of innocent people to be subjected to slander and libel (and I don't mean the John and Patsy Ramsey).

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Bold above -- please provide a list or a link to where we might find the information that supports your statement. I've studied this case a long, long time and I don't see your statement as factual. I see it as a sweeping generalization made because your opinion is Patsy didn't write the note. The QDE reports I've read indicate that Patsy can not be excluded. I don't expect the defense to produce evidence Patsy wrote the note so that judgment must also be considered. Please don't use the boondoogle statement that "on a scale of one to five the probability Patsy didn't write the note is a four," (or words to that effect). That is hogwash. There is no such scale in the world of forensic QDE reports except for those who want to work on-the-fly and "puff their wares." It was a scale a Ramsey attorney made-up to emphasize his argument as being correct. I believe Hunter also supported the statement, which in my opinion made him further look as if he didn't know much about forensic QDE reports -- please correct me if I'm wrong about Hunter.

While I'm looking up your link, maybe you could consider things from another POV:

1. How many certified document examiners have reviewed the ransom note? A whole bunch.
2. How many concluded that PR was the writer? One or two.

Please note that 'could not be excluded' is RDI's way of saying PR wrote the note, and is irrelevant to my point.

 

[BOESP]

While I'm looking up your link, maybe you could consider things from another POV:

1. How many certified document examiners have reviewed the ransom note? A whole bunch.
2. How many concluded that PR was the writer? One or two.

Please note that 'could not be excluded' is RDI's way of saying PR wrote the note, and is irrelevant to my point.

Now Holdon, you know that is a fallacy of argument. You can not possibly speak the minds of other posters whether IDI or RDI.

I don't recall anyone officially concluding that Patsy wrote the note or did not write the note. The entire process is an include/exclude type result and some of the best QDEs in the world could not exclude Patsy Ramsey as the author of the note. Neither could the QDEs working for the defense irrefutably state Patsy did not write the note.

I'd like to know how many opinions the defense solicited before they came up with the ones they used. I'd also like to look at all the exemplars taken from all suspects but that won't happen either.

Based on Patsy's writing samples gathered from an era before the homicide and exemplars she submitted after JonBenet's death, my opinion is Patsy probably wrote that note. The fact that the prosecution team had Patsy write exemplars in the home of one of the prosecution team, without supervision, is beyond the pale.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Now Holdon, you know that is a fallacy of argument. You can not possibly speak the minds of other posters whether IDI or RDI.

My argument is that RDI is certainly in no position to factually show that PR wrote the note.


One or two CQE's concluded that she wrote it,
one or two concluded that she didn't,
The rest concluded that she may or may not have.

The general consensus among CQE's: she may or may not have written the note.

RDI's 'she wrote the note' seems to be somewhat ahead of expert opinion.

 

[BOESP]

...RDI's 'she wrote the note' seems to be somewhat ahead of expert opinion.

Sort of like Callan saying Patsy didn't write the note -- is that what you mean? We are all entitled to our opinion. Why else bother posting on this board?

I have no horse in this race and have no vested interest in believing or disbelieving the Ramseys innocent or guilty. That doesn't mean I can't make an intelligent decision about what I think evidence in the public domain suggests.

 

[Solace]

While I'm looking up your link, maybe you could consider things from another POV:

1. How many certified document examiners have reviewed the ransom note? A whole bunch.
2. How many concluded that PR was the writer? One or two.

Please note that 'could not be excluded' is RDI's way of saying PR wrote the note, and is irrelevant to my point.

One or two. Why do you exaggerate like that. What does it prove.

I will give you three right off the bat Chet Ubowski, CBI, and YES HE WAS PREPARED TO TESTIFY.

Tina Wong.

Tom Miller. His exemplaries are incredible.

That is just three that I can think of. I know there are more. I do not have them committed to memory. But I can assure you when you give me your list I will give you at least one of them who says he is not prepared to testify, but HE BELIEVED PATSY WROTE THE NOTE.

This is a board where you are dealing with people who have become almost experts on this case. So please Hold on, do not try to pass that "one or two expert" bs on to us. It is insulting and a waste of time.

I am not angry, just saying it the way it is.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

One or two. Why do you exaggerate like that. What does it prove.

I will give you three right off the bat Chet Ubowski, CBI, and YES HE WAS PREPARED TO TESTIFY.

Tina Wong.

Tom Miller. His exemplaries are incredible.

That is just three that I can think of. I know there are more. I do not have them committed to memory. But I can assure you when you give me your list I will give you at least one of them who says he is not prepared to testify, but HE BELIEVED PATSY WROTE THE NOTE.

This is a board where you are dealing with people who have become almost experts on this case. So please Hold on, do not try to pass that "one or two expert" bs on to us. It is insulting and a waste of time.

I am not angry, just saying it the way it is.

Yeah, but not that clearly.

Chet Ubowski, ABFDE member: "the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definite conclusion."

Gideon Epstein, ABFDE member: "Strong indications is not a definitive conclusion

Tom Miller, Not a ABFDE member: "the handwriting is probably that of Patsy Ramsey."

Cina Wong, Not a ABFDE member: ""'100 percent certain' Mrs. Ramsey wrote the Ransom Note.

Its an interesting flip flop between ABFDE member and not a ABFDE member, as far as their certainty is concerned. The further into ABFDE member CDE you get, the fewer PR conclusions you get. In fact, is there even one ABFDE member CDE that concluded PR wrote the note?

 

[DeeDee249]

As far as those school records you mentioned, Holdon- they were mysteriously "sealed" -incredibly even kept from the LE who were investigating her murder! I'd love to know who was able to do that! Though I have my ideas about it.
JBR's participation in Little Miss Christmas (which I believe she won) or any other pageant were just part of her life. She didn't know anything else. Whatever was going on in her life- well, basically if you are 6 years old, you get up and do whatever your mother has planned for the day. Remember Nedra's CHILLING comment when asked what they would do if JBR refused to particpate in a pageant- she said, "We simply say to her, JonBenet- you WILL do it."
She didn't have a choice.

 

[JMO8778]

Dee..can you tell us or PM me as to who might have been able to do that? It's as odd as the phone records disappearing !
And what kind of grades would a kindergartener have? would she have to flunk coloring to prove something wrong was going on at home? she never even made it past 4 months in K,that speaks for itself..she was found dead in her own home,evidence leads to the parents,there is evidence of past abuse,soiling issues indicate she was under stress,what would show she wasn't living dysfunctionally? winning a pageant doesn't take care of all those things.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

"the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definite conclusion."

"...failed to provide a basis for identifying Patricia Ramsey as the writer of the letter."

"no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the Ransom Note."

"Strong indications is not a definitive conclusion,"


Despite the unusual length of the ransom note, NONE of the ABFDE member CDE's have resolved PR as its author. I would conclude then that the statement "PR wrote the note" is somewhat ahead of expert opinion on the matter. This assumes that CDE's do occasionally make definitive conclusions.

 

[UKGuy]

"the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definite conclusion."

"...failed to provide a basis for identifying Patricia Ramsey as the writer of the letter."

"no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the Ransom Note."

"Strong indications is not a definitive conclusion,"


Despite the unusual length of the ransom note, NONE of the ABFDE member CDE's have resolved PR as its author. I would conclude then that the statement "PR wrote the note" is somewhat ahead of expert opinion on the matter. This assumes that CDE's do occasionally make definitive conclusions.

Holdontoyourhat, How about telling us if the Ransom Note is bogus or not? The crime-scene is staged so is the ransom note, there were multiple attemps to construct it. So whoever wrote it might just wish to disguise their handwriting? So ruling people in or out with respect to the ransom note is a waste of time, since its staged evidence, and fake evidence will not prove who JonBenet's killer is. .

 

[JMO8778]

Perhaps Holdon would care to tell us not only why he keeps failing to mention the tape,but also why there was evidence of past sexual abuse.So if JB was living such a non-dysfunct life,why was there evidence of such ongoing abuse,IE-chronic infiltrate into the cells,(pathology doesn't lie),and the fact her hymen was mostly eroded away ..that had to happen over TIME,an intruder didn't do that.
Not to mention WHY oh WHY couldn't Patsy recall the reason she frantically phoned Dr Beuf 3x in 10 mins??

 

[Solace]

Yeah, but not that clearly.

Chet Ubowski, ABFDE member: "the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definite conclusion." He was prepared to TESTIFY that she wrote the note. He believed 24 out of 26 letters of the alphabet matched Patsy's writing. If you don't believe me, Lawrence Schiller says it in his book. Page 537

Gideon Epstein, ABFDE member: "Strong indications is not a definitive conclusion

Gideon Epstein says point blank in his deposition that he is 100% SURE THAT PATSY RAMSEY WROTE THE NOTE. Check it out Holdon. It is on the net.

Tom Miller, Not a ABFDE member: "the handwriting is probably that of Patsy Ramsey." Miller is coming out with a book "The Prostitution of Justice" regarding the money that the Ramseys spent to keep themselves out of jail. HE BELIEVES SHE WROTE THE NOTE and the book is out in Japan. Lin Wood is doing his best to keep it quiet.

Cina Wong, Not a ABFDE member: ""'100 percent certain' Mrs. Ramsey wrote the Ransom Note.

Its an interesting flip flop between ABFDE member and not a ABFDE member, as far as their certainty is concerned. The further into ABFDE member CDE you get, the fewer PR conclusions you get. In fact, is there even one ABFDE member CDE that concluded PR wrote the note?

You really ought to check out Epstein's deposition. It is very interesting how Lin Wood tries to thwart at every turn, but in the end Epstein says "Patsy wrote the note". It is hard for poor Lin when he comes up against someone with brains. He usually loses. That is why it is so easy for him with DA Lacy. She is an idiot.

David Liebman, Certified Document Examiner - Patsy wrote the note
Seraph Corporation - Patsy wrote the note
Larry Zierler - Analyst - Patsy wrote the note

So, A far cry from the one or two you mentioned. And I have not even done much research. Give it up Hold on.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

As far as those school records you mentioned, Holdon- they were mysteriously "sealed" -incredibly even kept from the LE who were investigating her murder! I'd love to know who was able to do that! Though I have my ideas about it.
JBR's participation in Little Miss Christmas (which I believe she won) or any other pageant were just part of her life. She didn't know anything else. Whatever was going on in her life- well, basically if you are 6 years old, you get up and do whatever your mother has planned for the day. Remember Nedra's CHILLING comment when asked what they would do if JBR refused to particpate in a pageant- she said, "We simply say to her, JonBenet- you WILL do it."
She didn't have a choice.

She buried with her Little Miss Christmas crown on her head. It breaks my heart to think of a tiny little girl lying in a grave with a dazzling crown on her head - a crown that represented "just few Sunday afternoons" of her short, tragic life.

Absolutely, you are just going to get up and go along with whatever your mother has planned when you are only six years old...especially when your mother, grandmother, and aunt all approve of it so highly and you've found it's the best way to get love, attention, and validation from these matriarchal family members who govern every minute of your life.

And what activities did Patsy have JonBenet enrolled in? According to DOI: singing and dancing lessons, French lessons, gymnastics, piano, and violin. All of them meant to enhance JonBenet's presentation at beauty pageants. What else did JB have time to do when she wasn't at lessons or rehearsals for these activities? There's costume-fittings, photo sessions, hair-bleaching afternoons, parades, and various performances like at schools and malls...oh, yeah, and she was also in kindergarten, but that wasn't as important to Patsy as the pageants.

Unfortunately, neither was JonBenet's inability to stay dry enough to avoid enduring frequent infections from always being in wet underwear. But all of those activities and all of the stress and responsibility of having to not only stay on top of them all but also use what she's learned to WIN pageants wouldn't have been enough to cause JonBenet to be incontinent, now would it? It wouldn't explain any erosion to her hymen, either. But something was clearly not right in JonBenet's life to have the issues with wetting/soiling that she did, and Patsy's failure to make it important enough to address indicates to me that Patsy may have known the cause but refused to deal with it. I think if the incontinence had interfered with pageants, it would have been more important, but all Patsy needed was a pull-up on her daughter and no one would be the wiser.

What choice did JonBenet have but to do the pageants like her maternal family members expected her to, when she's being worked that hard to maintain them?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

You really ought to check out Epstein's deposition. It is very interesting how Lin Wood tries to thwart at every turn, but in the end Epstein says "Patsy wrote the note". It is hard for poor Lin when he comes up against someone with brains. He usually loses. That is why it is so easy for him with DA Lacy. She is an idiot.

David Liebman, Certified Document Examiner - Patsy wrote the note
Seraph Corporation - Patsy wrote the note
Larry Zierler - Analyst - Patsy wrote the note

So, A far cry from the one or two you mentioned. And I have not even done much research. Give it up Hold on.

There are far more ABFDE certified document examiners who dont say PR wrote the note than who do. Not one concluded she wrote the note. Not one. With Epstein "strong indications" and Liebman "90-95%", both HIRED by RDI and they still leave it open.

Ubowski is the closest thing RDI has to an independent CDE, and he says "the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definite conclusion." In reality, this is probably about where RDI is on the "PR wrote the note" idea.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Holdontoyourhat, How about telling us if the Ransom Note is bogus or not? The crime-scene is staged so is the ransom note, there were multiple attemps to construct it. So whoever wrote it might just wish to disguise their handwriting? So ruling people in or out with respect to the ransom note is a waste of time, since its staged evidence, and fake evidence will not prove who JonBenet's killer is. .

The kidnapping part, the two gentlemen, and 'you will be denied her remains' parts I think were valid early on. The ransom part was never valid, IMO. The perp wanted JBR for good, and something went wrong between the time the note was written and placed on the stairs and the time JBR was instead sexually assaulted and killed.

BTW, both 'disguised handwriting' and 'staging' are concepts that allow the available evidence to be interpreted in ways other than what they appear to be. They're like wildcards that enable RDI to say just about anything regardless of the appearance of the crime scene.

 

[JMO8778]

The ransom part was never valid, IMO. The perp wanted JBR for good, and something went wrong between the time the note was written and placed on the stairs and the time JBR was instead sexually assaulted and killed.

no way.why bother with the 118,000 nonsense anyway.that was just part of the R's plan to cast suspicion on someone who had access to JR's bonus info.
btw,that theory is the same hogwash JR proposes in DOI (o my,what a coincidence).

BTW, both 'disguised handwriting' and 'staging' are concepts that allow the available evidence to be interpreted in ways other than what they appear to be. They're like wildcards that enable RDI to say just about anything regardless of the appearance of the crime scene.

do you really think no one has a single ounce of common sense and can't see the truth in this case????
the crime scene points to the parents,no one is arbitrarily saying anything.
and what about the past abuse? you keep avoiding that....