The actual vs. desired outcome

[DeeDee249]

Once again- the cord fibers were NOT found in her bed. The rope fibers in her bed were from a HEMP rope that was found in a paper bag in JAR's room.

 

[JMO8778]

Once again- the cord fibers were NOT found in her bed. The rope fibers in her bed were from a HEMP rope that was found in a paper bag in JAR's room.

sounds like someone was thinking of using that rope instead.

 

[icedtea4me]

sounds like someone was thinking of using that rope instead.

I'm thinking that Patsy originally thought of using the hemp rope which, I believe, was under John Andrew's bed. In the process of pulling it out from under the bed, a section of the dust ruffle was pulled out, too.


-Tea

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm thinking that Patsy originally thought of using the hemp rope which, I believe, was under John Andrew's bed. In the process of pulling it out from under the bed, a section of the dust ruffle was pulled out, too.


-Tea

Good point! I knew the rope was found in JAR's room, but I didn't know it was found under the bed.
And of course, JR had to offer HIS opinion of how the dust ruffle looked like someone had been "hiding" under there.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Once again- the cord fibers were NOT found in her bed. The rope fibers in her bed were from a HEMP rope that was found in a paper bag in JAR's room.

So who gave a federal judge bad information?

 

[DeeDee249]

What Federal Judge and where/when did this occur?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

What Federal Judge and where/when did this occur?

http://www.acandyrose.com/03312003carnes01-10.htm

SMF 168; PSMF 168

 

[Rino]

The most likely original plan was a kidnapping. That is, the original desired result for the perp was to kidnap JBR.

This is based on...

...the ransom note where one of the perps implicitly stated that JBR was kidnapped and being watched by two gentlemen.

She wasn't though

...the multi-looped (3 loops) ligature designed more for restraining a child and less for murder.

Weird assumption

...the cord fiber evidence found in JBR's bed, suggesting that the last place JBR was seen alive was the first place she met the restraining device. Its unlikely she would be murdered or sexually assaulted in her bed, so the cord device was likely intended for restraining JBR. This is kidnapping, BTW.

You're simply jumping to conclusions

The idea that a kidnapping did not occur is your opinion, stated as fact. Not only is it just an idea, but an idea that contradicts the evidence.

What evidence is there that Jonbennet was gone and therefore the ransom note held any weight for the hope of her return?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

She wasn't though

Of course she was kidnapped. They just didn't make it out of the house like they wanted to.

Weird assumption

Complex cord used for control over JBR, is how it was presented in court, I believe. You can call that a wierd assumption if you want, without backing up your claim with anything at all. Isn't that an ad hominem?

You're simply jumping to conclusions

Thats OK, as long as they're the right ones!

What evidence is there that Jonbennet was gone and therefore the ransom note held any weight for the hope of her return?

JBR was gone. The ransom note in fact held weight for the hope of her return for 6 hours.

JBR was very likely the victim of a botched kidnapping turned sexual assault and murder. At the time the RN was written, the perp's intention was probably to have JBR out of the house before the RN was read.

 

[coloradokares]

Of course she was kidnapped. They just didn't make it out of the house like they wanted to.



Complex cord used for control over JBR, is how it was presented in court, I believe. You can call that a wierd assumption if you want, without backing up your claim with anything at all. Isn't that an ad hominem?


Thats OK, as long as they're the right ones!



JBR was gone. The ransom note in fact held weight for the hope of her return for 6 hours.

JBR was very likely the victim of a botched kidnapping turned sexual assault and murder. At the time the RN was written, the perp's intention was probably to have JBR out of the house before the RN was read.

Presented in WHAT court Where?

 

[icedtea4me]

JBR was very likely the victim of a botched kidnapping turned sexual assault and murder. At the time the RN was written, the perp's intention was probably to have JBR out of the house before the RN was read.

The butler kitchen door, which led directly to the outside, was found opened. IMO, there's no reason for a kidnapper not to have taken her out of the house.


-Tea

 

[Rino]

JBR was gone. The ransom note in fact held weight for the hope of her return for 6 hours.

JBR was very likely the victim of a botched kidnapping turned sexual assault and murder. At the time the RN was written, the perp's intention was probably to have JBR out of the house before the RN was read.

Who followed the instructions in the RN for those 6 hours? Not the Ramseys.

After hiding the kidnap victim, how did they know not to call as the RN said they would?

He wrapped and hid her, but didn't think to take her? Even a dead missing girl would warrent ransom money.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The butler kitchen door, which led directly to the outside, was found opened. IMO, there's no reason for a kidnapper not to have taken her out of the house.


-Tea

I agree, in a kidnap for assault or ransom. I think kidnap for long term might involve scenarios that are a bit more complicated.

In a kidnap for ransom or for assault, the perp doesn't care about JBR, her appearance, or her attitude. They just want the short term gratification of cash or sex.

In a kidnap for slave, or for a long term relationship of servitude, the perp may care about JBR, her appearance, and her attitude.

 

[DeeDee249]

I agree, in a kidnap for assault or ransom. I think kidnap for long term might involve scenarios that are a bit more complicated.

In a kidnap for ransom or for assault, the perp doesn't care about JBR, her appearance, or her attitude. They just want the short term gratification of cash or sex.

In a kidnap for slave, or for a long term relationship of servitude, the perp may care about JBR, her appearance, and her attitude.

So that's why he left her dead in basement, disheveled, strangled, bludgeoned and wrapped in a blanket? This after spending less than 2 hours with her alive (with the parents right upstairs, too). That's a pretty quick enslavement. And an adult does not have a "relationship" with a child! Long term or otherwise. "Relationships" are between consenting adults.
Bottom line- a real kidnapper would have gotten out of that house immediately with her or her "remains". (what kidnapper uses the word "remains" ???- they'd say BODY) A child in the home, dead or alive, is of no use to a kidnapper.
Even with the phony RN, if JBR had never been found the kidnapping story would be more believeable than it is now.

 

[Solace]

So that's why he left her dead in basement, disheveled, strangled, bludgeoned and wrapped in a blanket? This after spending less than 2 hours with her alive (with the parents right upstairs, too). That's a pretty quick enslavement. And an adult does not have a "relationship" with a child! Long term or otherwise. "Relationships" are between consenting adults.
Bottom line- a real kidnapper would have gotten out of that house immediately with her or her "remains". (what kidnapper uses the word "remains" ???- they'd say BODY) A child in the home, dead or alive, is of no use to a kidnapper.
Even with the phony RN, if JBR had never been found the kidnapping story would be more believeable than it is now.

Dee Dee,

IMO, what you are saying is sooooooo obvious. The Ramseys are upper white class money and they don't look like it, so Holdon, imo, just cannot come to grips with Patsy killing her daughter.

That is sincerely what I believe.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

So that's why he left her dead in basement, disheveled, strangled, bludgeoned and wrapped in a blanket? This after spending less than 2 hours with her alive (with the parents right upstairs, too). That's a pretty quick enslavement. And an adult does not have a "relationship" with a child! Long term or otherwise. "Relationships" are between consenting adults.
Bottom line- a real kidnapper would have gotten out of that house immediately with her or her "remains". (what kidnapper uses the word "remains" ???- they'd say BODY) A child in the home, dead or alive, is of no use to a kidnapper.
Even with the phony RN, if JBR had never been found the kidnapping story would be more believeable than it is now.

You're right. A dead child in the home is of no use to a kidnapper. However, this does sortof continue to miss the point of the whole thread. That something went wrong with the kidnapping, so the kidnapper instead killed JBR.

Its already been established that is less remote than PR accidentally killing JBR in a rage and then concocting this foreign faction mumbo jumbo on the spot.

The relationship I referred to was simply a relationship that lasted longer than a kidnapper for ransom or sexual assault. Months or years instead of hours or days. Slaves usually don't 'consent' to a servitude relationship. They may acquiesce or finally 'give in' to it.

 

[icedtea4me]

You're right. A dead child in the home is of no use to a kidnapper. However, this does sortof continue to miss the point of the whole thread. That something went wrong with the kidnapping, so the kidnapper instead killed JBR.

He gets her out of her bed. He takes her down the spiral staircase to the first floor. He takes her into the butler kitchen. He opens the door. All he has to do is walk out with her. So, what happened? Did he suddenly morph into a combination of Homer Simpson, Barney Gumble, and Hans Moleman?


-Tea

 

[JMO8778]

You're right. A dead child in the home is of no use to a kidnapper. However, this does sortof continue to miss the point of the whole thread. That something went wrong with the kidnapping, so the kidnapper instead killed JBR.

that's what JR proposed in DOI,and IMO,it's just as preposterous here as it is in the book.

Its already been established that is less remote than PR accidentally killing JBR in a rage and then concocting this foreign faction mumbo jumbo on the spot.

no,as far as I can tell,you're the only one saying it is...truth is,odds are in favor of the killer being one of the ppl living inside the home.
the SFF mumbo jumbo is just that...a desperate attempt to concoct a fake story at the spur of the moment.

 

[Rino]

You're right. A dead child in the home is of no use to a kidnapper. However, this does sortof continue to miss the point of the whole thread. That something went wrong with the kidnapping, so the kidnapper instead killed JBR.

Why jump to that conclusion?

Seems more logical that something went wrong with a sexual assault, or "relationship" as you seem to prefer based on your conclusions below, if you insist the Ramseys are innocent.

The relationship I referred to was simply a relationship that lasted longer than a kidnapper for ransom or sexual assault. Months or years instead of hours or days. Slaves usually don't 'consent' to a servitude relationship. They may acquiesce or finally 'give in' to it

 

[BOESP]

You're right. A dead child in the home is of no use to a kidnapper. However, this does sortof continue to miss the point of the whole thread. That something went wrong with the kidnapping, so the kidnapper instead killed JBR.

Its already been established that is less remote than PR accidentally killing JBR in a rage and then concocting this foreign faction mumbo jumbo on the spot.

The relationship I referred to was simply a relationship that lasted longer than a kidnapper for ransom or sexual assault. Months or years instead of hours or days. Slaves usually don't 'consent' to a servitude relationship. They may acquiesce or finally 'give in' to it.

Holdon, you are building an entire premise around your belief that someone wanted to kidnap JonBenet. The evidence, both circumstantial and physical suggests otherwise.

I believe the desired outcome was for JonBenet to get ready for bed and go to sleep so she and Patsy could get some rest before heading out to Charlevoix the next morning. When for whatever reasons that didn't happen Patsy lost control and accidentally hurt JonBenet in a grievous manner. After seeing what she had done, she panicked and started staging what she thought looked like an Intruder who wanted to kidnap JonBenet. The entire behavior, based on professional opinions, suggests the ransom note is bogus and no one intended to kidnap JonBenet, especially since it is an indisputable fact her body was found in a farthest recess of her home -- the basement -- wrapped in a blanket like a papoose according to her father.

Statistically, kidnappers remove the body, dead or alive.