The actual vs. desired outcome

[Tril]

I'll try posting this again. I had to reformat it.
~~

Although the physical evidence doesn't prove that one of the Rs killed JonBenet, imo it certainly doesn't support any intruder theory either.

The axillary hair found on the blanket covering the body was shown to be Patsy's.

Burke Ramsey owned Hi Tec boots. Fleet White made a point of proclaiming this fact, and it was also revealed through another source during GJ testimony.

The "mysterious" palm print on the door was shown to be that of John's daughter Melinda.

ONLY if the DNA sample came from one individual - and that is unknown - can a Ramsey be ruled out as the donor.

Snip (image) from CBI report: http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/8894/cbiresultswiderededitedoo0.jpg

Fibers consistent with fibers from the jacket Patsy wore on Christmas were found on the tape on JonBenet's mouth, in the ligature, and in the paint tray.

Fibers consistent with fibers from the black wool shirt John wore on Christmas were found in the crotch area of the underpants JonBenet had on when her body was found.

Both of the following experts concluded that Patsy wrote the note:

David Liebman, former president of the National Association of Document Examiners

Gideon Epstein, former director of the forensics unit of the documents lab at the Immigration and Naturalization Service

Epstein went so far as to say he was 100% certain that Patsy wrote the note.

Comparison of lower case Qs: http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6031/img111005editededitedvs2.jpg

(LEFT - Ransom note lower case Q
RIGHT - Patsy's exemplar lower case Q)

Source: http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf (Page 31)

The roll of duct tape: Since the Rs weren't searched before they left the house, it's possible Patsy took it away in her purse.

The remaining cord: It could have been in the golf bag that John had Pam remove from the house along with gobs of other stuff.

Where's the physical evidence pointing to an intruder? I honestly don't know of any.

 

[Solace]

I'll try posting this again. I had to reformat it.
~~

Although the physical evidence doesn't prove that one of the Rs killed JonBenet, imo it certainly doesn't support any intruder theory either.

The axillary hair found on the blanket covering the body was shown to be Patsy's.

Burke Ramsey owned Hi Tec boots. Fleet White made a point of proclaiming this fact, and it was also revealed through another source during GJ testimony.

The "mysterious" palm print on the door was shown to be that of John's daughter Melinda.

ONLY if the DNA sample came from one individual - and that is unknown - can a Ramsey be ruled out as the donor.

Snip (image) from CBI report: http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/8894/cbiresultswiderededitedoo0.jpg

Fibers consistent with fibers from the jacket Patsy wore on Christmas were found on the tape on JonBenet's mouth, in the ligature, and in the paint tray.

Fibers consistent with fibers from the black wool shirt John wore on Christmas were found in the crotch area of the underpants JonBenet had on when her body was found.

Both of the following experts concluded that Patsy wrote the note:

David Liebman, former president of the National Association of Document Examiners

Gideon Epstein, former director of the forensics unit of the documents lab at the Immigration and Naturalization Service

Epstein went so far as to say he was 100% certain that Patsy wrote the note.

Comparison of lower case Qs: http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6031/img111005editededitedvs2.jpg

(LEFT - Ransom note lower case Q
RIGHT - Patsy's exemplar lower case Q)

Source: http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf (Page 31)

The roll of duct tape: Since the Rs weren't searched before they left the house, it's possible Patsy took it away in her purse.

The remaining cord: It could have been in the golf bag that John had Pam remove from the house along with gobs of other stuff.

Where's the physical evidence pointing to an intruder? I honestly don't know of any.

Tril,

Great, great post. If you were to post it at Crimelibrary, you would have all kinds of responses trying to refute what you say but never managing to do it.:snooty:

It is a fact that Levin said fibers from John's sweater were found in JB's underwear and asked John about it and John was not allowed to answer but did protest. They will swear that he is lying even though Rashomon has proven that he is under obligation NOT TO LIE BY THE COURTS. Crimelibrary posters can't seem to keep the police and the lawyers straight.

But one thing I did not know was that an axillary hair found on the blanket by JB was Patsy's. I know it was her house, but it is very very interesting.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR POST.

 

[UKGuy]

yes,that's just what I said,and that's what I've been saying all along about getting her out of the house,why else bother to say her remains are going be denied?

JMO8778, So who retreated from dumping JonBenet outdoors, could it have been Patsy hence her forensic traces left on JonBenet, did Patsy refuse to allow John to relocate JonBenet's body, did he say you deal with it then? The initial cleanup and redressing appears to be by John and the latter staging by Patsy, it points directly to them both being involved. John did not arrive on the scene when he arose that fateful morning! .

 

[Solace]

JMO8778, So who retreated from dumping JonBenet outdoors, could it have been Patsy hence her forensic traces left on JonBenet, did Patsy refuse to allow John to relocate JonBenet's body, did he say you deal with it then? The initial cleanup and redressing appears to be by John and the latter staging by Patsy, it points directly to them both being involved. John did not arrive on the scene when he arose that fateful morning! .

I agree. He is involved also. :bang:

 

[Solace]

What does a garroted JBR being carried downstairs by 3 men sound like? More creeking and noises?

Holdon.

Where in the heck did you find these three men who are basically invisible and leave no evidence. :banghead:

 

[UKGuy]

Where's the physical evidence pointing to an intruder? I honestly don't know of any.

Either do I. There is none to substantiate an intruder theory, and none to implicate anyone outside of the Ramsey household. In short there is none! Most of the forensic evidence links to the parents, so that has to be explained away before any intruder theory can be adopted.

 

[Solace]

It doesn't matter if PR may have purchased cord, made a painting sling, put in on a painting, took it off to tie one length tight around JBRs neck, while draping loosely the other length over her wrists, and used Pam as unwitting transport of incriminating evidence.

What matters is that we can't factually place the cord among household items the night of the murder. That is, by non-imaginary means. And this fact clearly leads to an obvious assumption RDI makes that the cord was on hand for the accident/staging scenario.

An assumption that is completely glossed over with this 'a-ha, it all makes perfect sense now' declaration, based on a cord purchase, painting sling fabrication, and evidence removal that are all only just imagined!

BTW I don't get the difference between cord fibers on a painting and broken paintbrush fragments in the paint tote. Why would one be seen as any more or less incriminating than the other?

You know Holdon, I don't know what the big deal is about this cord thing. It is cord. I could find cord in my apartment right now. I could possibly find just the right amount to do what was done to JB. Just because no other cord was found means nothing. Why do we have to assume that there should be more cord and that it was removed. Maybe that was all there was.

 

[Solace]

My claim is that the cord should've been easily shown to be among household items, if it really did belong to the house. According to RDI, its purchase wasn't concealed, and its purpse wasn't a secret. There are many and varied ways in which someone not involved in a staging coverup would know about the cord. Even by any prior use of similar cord.

Since the cord cannot be factually linked to household items, then it can be assumed it was not a household item. The fact is, the only use of cord at the R's was on JBR, so it very much appears it brought for the purpose of crime. RDI has to steer away again from the outward appearance of the crime, to support rage accident/coverup.

There is no sense to concealing cord while leaving paintbrush fragments. Of course, theres no sense to accidentally headbashing your daughter and then staging both a foreign faction kidnapping AND a sexual assault and murder.

Keep trying RDI.

You might want to keep trying. You take it upon yourself to assume a great deal Holdon. Tell me how you cannot factually link it to the house. Just because no other cord was found in this rambling home.

Do you think you are actually going to convince me that because there is no other cord like this that it was not the Ramseys. That is as bad an argument as the DNA is proof that the Ramseys are innocent.

In your dreams Holdon. In your dreams. :razz:

I hope you have a sense of humor Holdon. It has been a long day.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yep- Holdon is like a dog with a bone when it comes to that cord. LET IT GO. Let's move on to some new business.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Holdon.

Where in the heck did you find these three men who are basically invisible and leave no evidence. :banghead:

In the ransom note.

Where did you find a child killer in PR? She's got no abuse priors, no warrants, and seems happy to be JBR's mom and JR's wife? Is this something that can only be visualized on a psychedelic?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The more unmatched forensic evidence you have, the greater the odds its ain intruder. If you make premature claims that the unmatched evidence matches an R, e.g. handwriting, that gives the false impression that said evidence cannot be matched to an intruder since its already beem matched.

The statement 'zero evidence of an intruder' is false. Any unmatched forensic evidence may one day be intruder evidence.

The only conclusive evidence of an intruder, really, is the handwriting. Its important for the experts to know what they are talking about, and clearly they are confused because there are also experts who claim JMK wrote the note.

That might leave it up to Callan who has probably ruled out PR as the author. After all, if you can rule out PR and JR as the author, at least then you'll know it was an intruder.

 

[DeeDee249]

The more unmatched forensic evidence you have, the greater the odds its ain intruder. If you make premature claims that the unmatched evidence matches an R, e.g. handwriting, that gives the false impression that said evidence cannot be matched to an intruder since its already beem matched.

The statement 'zero evidence of an intruder' is false. Any unmatched forensic evidence may one day be intruder evidence.

The only conclusive evidence of an intruder, really, is the handwriting. Its important for the experts to know what they are talking about, and clearly they are confused because there are also experts who claim JMK wrote the note.

That might leave it up to Callan who has probably ruled out PR as the author. After all, if you can rule out PR and JR as the author, at least then you'll know it was an intruder.

There are only 2 items unmatched forensic evidence: The degraded DNA in the panties, likley not left at the same time as the murder, and the degraded DNA under the fingernails, which probably came from the improper use of nailclippers at autopsy.
The rest of the forensics (fibers, hairs, prints...) came from a R family member. Axillary hair from PR on the blanket. Fibers from PR on the INSIDE of the duct tape pulled from her mouth, also entwined in the garrotte, and also in the paint tray,fibers from JR on her panties, and his underwear fibers in her room, Hi-Tec print belonged to BR, palm print belonged to Melinda Ramsey, spoon/pineapple bowl prints sourced to PR and BR- and I am sure someone here can fill in what I forgot.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Yep- Holdon is like a dog with a bone when it comes to that cord. LET IT GO. Let's move on to some new business.

Were'nt you going to elaborate on the garrote ligature cord fibers found on JBR's bed? And how to rearrainge RDI accident/coverup to accomodate these fibers?

Boy it sure looks like the crime started the last place JBR was seen by witnesses. Its almost as if the evidence fits witness testimony. How novel.

 

[DeeDee249]

No need to elaborate. It's all been said before. Many times.

 

[JMO8778]

Where did you find a child killer in PR? She's got no abuse priors, no warrants, and seems happy to be JBR's mom and JR's wife? Is this something that can only be visualized on a psychedelic?

oh boy,yes,that's why the housekeeper said there were daily screaming matches bet. PR and JB over her soiling issues; JB becoming rebellious and Patsy too immature to handle it;Patsy's very tight grip on JB's arm in the xmas morning photo,the video of xmas morning disappearing (Patsy got upset w. JB,IMO),and why the heck was JB having all the med. problems/soiling issues/bedwetting problems anyway?? and why did Patsy frantically call the dr 3x in 10 mins in Dec?? (but yet she couldn't recall WHY). and she saw the school nurse 3x in Dec. I think? and always on a Mon, too. ..something wasn't right in her life,she was under a lot of stress,and my bet is on Patsy's treatment of her. (I think Patsy's corporal cleaning of JB is what prompted the dr calls and nurse visits). And why did Patsy not see a specialist for JB's soiling problems? She would only take her to the dubious Dr Beuf.

 

[JMO8778]

Yep- Holdon is like a dog with a bone when it comes to that cord. LET IT GO. Let's move on to some new business.

I can't help but notice he seems to want to forget about the tape.My question is WHY.Could that be because it can be matched easily,and or shown to have been in the house?

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778, So who retreated from dumping JonBenet outdoors, could it have been Patsy hence her forensic traces left on JonBenet, did Patsy refuse to allow John to relocate JonBenet's body, did he say you deal with it then?

I think both of them were in on the writing of the RN,for reasons I have stated before,on other threads.So both knew of the initial plan to 'deny her remains'.
My guess is it was a combo of things that changed the plan: they were running out of time,fear of being caught/seen,they didn't want to once they calmed down from the initial panic of the situation,and I think some phone calls were made(remember the phone records disappeared),and a decision was made to leave her indoors.I can't help but wonder if that was because,if it had been made to appear a true KN by removing her from the house,the FBI would have become involved then.

The initial cleanup and redressing appears to be by John and the latter staging by Patsy, it points directly to them both being involved. John did not arrive on the scene when he arose that fateful morning! .

I agree,but it appears she had been restaged,so how do we know Patsy didn't ligature strangle her first,then JR comes along and revises the scene somewhat?

 

[JMO8778]

Were'nt you going to elaborate on the garrote ligature cord fibers found on JBR's bed? And how to rearrainge RDI accident/coverup to accomodate these fibers?

I think the cord was cut in her room,with BR's knife that was found nearby in the basement,of which the housekeeper had hidden from him,and only she and PATSY knew where it was..which,interestingly enough,was right outside JB's room,in a cabinet.

Boy it sure looks like the crime started the last place JBR was seen by witnesses.

yes,the R's wanted it to appear that way,and I believe they started a staging in her room,which was later moved to the basement,out of concern for brother BR possibly seeing her,for starters.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

oh boy,yes,that's why the housekeeper said there were daily screaming matches bet. PR and JB over her soiling issues; JB becoming rebellious and Patsy too immature to handle it;Patsy's very tight grip on JB's arm in the xmas morning photo,the video of xmas morning disappearing (Patsy got upset w. JB,IMO),and why the heck was JB having all the med. problems/soiling issues/bedwetting problems anyway?? and why did Patsy frantically call the dr 3x in 10 mins in Dec?? (but yet she couldn't recall WHY). and she saw the school nurse 3x in Dec. I think? and always on a Mon, too. ..something wasn't right in her life,she was under a lot of stress,and my bet is on Patsy's treatment of her. (I think Patsy's corporal cleaning of JB is what prompted the dr calls and nurse visits). And why did Patsy not see a specialist for JB's soiling problems? She would only take her to the dubious Dr Beuf.

In this month of medical manifestations, that you seem to know an awful lot about, how much school did JBR miss? If you believe all this other junk you should certainly know how many days she missed. If you dont then maybe your source could be slanted a bit.

How were her grades?

And how did JBR pull off Little Miss Colorado with all the chaos going on that you describe? I think its overblown tabloid junk. Nothing like a rich family scandal, even if you have to make parts of it up.

----------------------------------------------------

 

[JMO8778]

there are also experts who claim JMK wrote the note.

..and that was only b/c they assumed ML must have had good evidence on him to have dragged him all the way from Thailand,and so they jumped on the bandwagon with it.
For a number of reasons,we can safely say Karr didn't write it.(how would he even know about having good southern common sense? LOL).