The actual vs. desired outcome

[JMO8778]

In this month of medical manifestations, that you seem to know an awful lot about, how much school did JBR miss? If you believe all this other junk you should certainly know how many days she missed. If you dont then maybe your source could be slanted a bit.

How were her grades?

And how did JBR pull off Little Miss Colorado with all the chaos going on that you describe? I think its overblown tabloid junk. Nothing like a rich family scandal, even if you have to make parts of it up.

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did you know that answering with a question is a sign of being defensive? And you did it 3x in the above.
I have to wonder why you're taking it personally.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

did you know that answering with a question is a sign of being defensive? And you did it 3x in the above.
I have to wonder why you're taking it personally.

I'll presume you mean that we don't know what her grades were, how many days she missed, or how she managed Little Miss Colorado and the life from hell all at the same time.

Just the sordid stuff is all we know about, huh?

 

[UKGuy]

I think both of them were in on the writing of the RN,for reasons I have stated before,on other threads.So both knew of the initial plan to 'deny her remains'.
My guess is it was a combo of things that changed the plan: they were running out of time,fear of being caught/seen,they didn't want to once they calmed down from the initial panic of the situation,and I think some phone calls were made(remember the phone records disappeared),and a decision was made to leave her indoors.I can't help but wonder if that was because,if it had been made to appear a true KN by removing her from the house,the FBI would have become involved then. I agree,but it appears she had been restaged,so how do we know Patsy didn't ligature strangle her first,then JR comes along and revises the scene somewhat?

JMO8778,

I agree,but it appears she had been restaged,so how do we know Patsy didn't ligature strangle her first,then JR comes along and revises the scene somewhat?

We do not know for certain, but Patsy's fibers were found in the garrote knotting, which indicates she added the garrote? I think for whatever the reason there was a change of plan, it was Patsy who decided upon placing JonBenet in the basement in preference to dumping her outdoors? .

 

[Solace]

In the ransom note.

Where did you find a child killer in PR? She's got no abuse priors, no warrants, and seems happy to be JBR's mom and JR's wife? Is this something that can only be visualized on a psychedelic?

Probably from all the evidence Patsy left behind, fibers in the tape over her child's mouth, fibers from her sweater in the paint tray and the garrotte, the handwriting that several experts SAY is hers including Chet Ubowski of the CBI who was prepared to testify to that fact, contrary to popular opinion.

Lets see what else. Oh yes, Patsy does say that she saw the red heart on JB's palm "that morning". She reiterates this two or three times and at the end says "that was a pretty good heart". Then she recants the next day and says she probably read about the heart in the autopsy report, EVEN though, down the hall, John is saying "we don't read autopsy reports".

And where is it that because someone does not have a so called "history" of child abuse (which in my opinion, is also up for debate in the Ramsey case) is not capable of rage and killing their child.

You need a better argument, imo.

 

[Solace]

In this month of medical manifestations, that you seem to know an awful lot about, how much school did JBR miss? If you believe all this other junk you should certainly know how many days she missed. If you dont then maybe your source could be slanted a bit.

How were her grades?

And how did JBR pull off Little Miss Colorado with all the chaos going on that you describe? I think its overblown tabloid junk. Nothing like a rich family scandal, even if you have to make parts of it up.

----------------------------------------------------

For the record, Patsy also told Steve Thomas that she did not recall talking to JB's doctor about her bedwetting problems. However, she did and Steve Thomas had the records which proved it.

Now why does Patsy not recall talking to the doctor about bedwetting. That is not something that someone forgets. Every single housekeeper said there were bedwetting problems. And Patsy can't remember speaking to the doctor about it.

Also, a little off subject, but why not. John says Patsy never got angry, never. Although I remember reading on one of these boards that Patsy did not speak to one of the mothers at JB's school for a year because the woman thought there was too much fanfare with Patsy and verablized it to her.

 

[Solace]

The more unmatched forensic evidence you have, the greater the odds its ain intruder. If you make premature claims that the unmatched evidence matches an R, e.g. handwriting, that gives the false impression that said evidence cannot be matched to an intruder since its already beem matched.

The statement 'zero evidence of an intruder' is false. Any unmatched forensic evidence may one day be intruder evidence.

The only conclusive evidence of an intruder, really, is the handwriting. Its important for the experts to know what they are talking about, and clearly they are confused because there are also experts who claim JMK wrote the note.

That might leave it up to Callan who has probably ruled out PR as the author. After all, if you can rule out PR and JR as the author, at least then you'll know it was an intruder.

You cannot rule out Patsy though. :woohoo:

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

[/color]

You cannot rule out Patsy though. :woohoo:

I think Callan already did a pretty good job of that.

But my point is that the handwriting is the closest thing anybody has to forensic evidence of an intruder. Its not like the DNA under JBR's fingernails that RDI simply claims is not from the perp. The RN handwriting IS from the perp, and there's no claiming it isn't. If the handwriting doesn't belong to an R,then the perp had to be an intruder, right?

 

[BOESP]

In the ransom note.

Where did you find a child killer in PR? She's got no abuse priors, no warrants, and seems happy to be JBR's mom and JR's wife? Is this something that can only be visualized on a psychedelic?

Holdon, guilty or not, the Ramseys' photos, words, and actions on video don't indicate they were all that crazy about each other.

 

[BOESP]

The more unmatched forensic evidence you have, the greater the odds its ain intruder. If you make premature claims that the unmatched evidence matches an R, e.g. handwriting, that gives the false impression that said evidence cannot be matched to an intruder since its already beem matched.

The statement 'zero evidence of an intruder' is false. Any unmatched forensic evidence may one day be intruder evidence.

The only conclusive evidence of an intruder, really, is the handwriting. Its important for the experts to know what they are talking about, and clearly they are confused because there are also experts who claim JMK wrote the note.

That might leave it up to Callan who has probably ruled out PR as the author. After all, if you can rule out PR and JR as the author, at least then you'll know it was an intruder.

Holdon, it's not the number of fibers found at the general scene. It is the number of and whose fibers are found in incriminating places that counts.

True forensic document examinations are done from the original documents, or at least a portion of the original, in a double-blind study if at all possible. I have no idea whether or not this was done in JonBenet's case. Regardless, many professional QDEs did not eliminate Patsy as the author of the ransom note. By using only information you believe proves your point and ignoring a very large body of incriminating evidence you pull down your argument.

I'm still not sure this topic thread is of any use anyway since the "desired outcome" is unknown and can never be known without a confession that is also supported by convincing evidence.

 

[Solace]

I think Callan already did a pretty good job of that.

But my point is that the handwriting is the closest thing anybody has to forensic evidence of an intruder. Its not like the DNA under JBR's fingernails that RDI simply claims is not from the perp. The RN handwriting IS from the perp, and there's no claiming it isn't. If the handwriting doesn't belong to an R,then the perp had to be an intruder, right?

Holdon,

I don't know how Callan did that, but it has not swayed any of us. :laugh:

 

[Solace]

Holdon, it's not the number of fibers found at the general scene. It is the number of and whose fibers are found in incriminating places that counts.

True forensic document examinations are done from the original documents, or at least a portion of the original, in a double-blind study if at all possible. I have no idea whether or not this was done in JonBenet's case. Regardless, many professional QDEs did not eliminate Patsy as the author of the ransom note. By using only information you believe proves your point and ignoring a very large body of incriminating evidence you pull down your argument.

I'm still not sure this topic thread is of any use anyway since the "desired outcome" is unknown and can never be known without a confession that is also supported by convincing evidence.

So true, and by the way, great post BOESP.

 

[BOESP]

... Also, a little off subject, but why not. John says Patsy never got angry, never. Although I remember reading on one of these boards that Patsy did not speak to one of the mothers at JB's school for a year because the woman thought there was too much fanfare with Patsy and verablized it to her.

Solace, Patsy certainly had many hallmarks of what used to be called a passive-aggressive personality. I think what gets to me most is the number of Americans who do not realize that parents from every walk of life are capable of doing great harm to their children. I don't know if not believing or understanding this phenomena comes from naivety, ignorance, or lack of intelligent thought. As Charley Rich sang, "No one knows what goes on behind closed doors."

 

[BOESP]

I think Callan already did a pretty good job of that....

In my opinion, Callan did not prove that Patsy did not write the note.

 

[Tril]

Sorry to return to fiber evidence, but the fibers found in material vacuumed from JonBenet's bed (and also found in the body bag used to transport her body) were not consistent with fibers from the ligature cord, nor were they identified as rope fibers, such as those that might have come from the rope found inside the brown paper sack. The bits found in the body bag and vacuumed from JonBenet's bed were consistent with fibers found on, not inside, the sack. I take that to mean they're probably brown paper sack fibers.

As for the rope found in the brown paper sack, could it have been the very same rope that JonBenet is posing with in this photo? (The rope found in the sack is shown for comparison.)

Photo:
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd45/TrilB/jonbenetwithrope.jpg

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

In my opinion, Callan did not prove that Patsy did not write the note.

Of course not. There's big differences between PR and RN handwriting, and those differences kept many document examiners from concluding PR wrote the note. In fact, only a very small minority of certified document examiners concluded PR wrote the note. The great majority were not able to make that conclusion. Many board certified document examiners placed an 80-90% probability PR did not write the note.

RDI is certainly in no position to factually show that PR wrote the note. To state that PR wrote the note in fact goes against the majority of expert opinion. This is because of the many certified document examiners involved, the great majority could not make that conclusion.

 

[Solace]

Of course not. There's big differences between PR and RN handwriting, and those differences kept many document examiners from concluding PR wrote the note. In fact, only a very small minority of certified document examiners concluded PR wrote the note. The great majority were not able to make that conclusion. Many board certified document examiners placed an 80-90% probability PR did not write the note.

RDI is certainly in no position to factually show that PR wrote the note. To state that PR wrote the note in fact goes against the majority of expert opinion. This is because of the many certified document examiners involved, the great majority could not make that conclusion.

Holdon.

Who do you think you are addressing here "The Novices of theRamsey Investigation". I don't think so. So please when you write MANY board certified examiners, etc., we realize that you are trying your best to show your point with that wording. You might want to add that MANY also placed her as the WRITER, including CBI analyst Chet Ubowski who WAS PREPARED TO TESTIFY. The exemplars of Patsy's handwriting and thenote submitted by Tom Miller via Hoffman are INCREDIBLE. Anyone looking at them would take another look at the whole case, just because of the similarities in the writing.

What possessed her to write such a note. I have a feeling that Patsy was somewhat out of it and ingested quite a few relaxants to get through this and clouded her thinking as a result. Because no one in their right mind would ever do such a thing. I have a feeling she was very difficult to control or John never would have allowed it. Maybe he thought it can work because it is so long and he knew he was in for a battle and would hire anyone and everyone to "PROVE" their innocence. If you have enough money, the experts are there for you.:liar:

And anytime you want to name those experts, I would love to hear their names, because there are a few who said they could not say she was it, but believed she did it.

Lets get the whole truth and nothing but the truth Holdon.

 

[Solace]

Solace, Patsy certainly had many hallmarks of what used to be called a passive-aggressive personality. I think what gets to me most is the number of Americans who do not realize that parents from every walk of life are capable of doing great harm to their children. I don't know if not believing or understanding this phenomena comes from naivety, ignorance, or lack of intelligent thought. As Charley Rich sang, "No one knows what goes on behind closed doors."

BOESP,

I really believe that many are influenced by the outward appearance of the "suspects" and of course their money. Because if this were a ghetto murder and the parents were black, we would not be discussing this.

 

[Rino]

BOESP,

I really believe that many are influenced by the outward appearance of the "suspects" and of course their money. Because if this were a ghetto murder and the parents were black, we would not be discussing this.

I do think if this was a black family who lived like the Ramseys we would.

 

[Solace]

I do think if this was a black family who lived like the Ramseys we would.

How about if it were a black family that did not live like the Ramseys, but lived in the South Bronx and had no history of violence.

 

[BOESP]

Of course not. There's big differences between PR and RN handwriting, and those differences kept many document examiners from concluding PR wrote the note. In fact, only a very small minority of certified document examiners concluded PR wrote the note. The great majority were not able to make that conclusion. Many board certified document examiners placed an 80-90% probability PR did not write the note.

RDI is certainly in no position to factually show that PR wrote the note. To state that PR wrote the note in fact goes against the majority of expert opinion. This is because of the many certified document examiners involved, the great majority could not make that conclusion.

Bold above -- please provide a list or a link to where we might find the information that supports your statement. I've studied this case a long, long time and I don't see your statement as factual. I see it as a sweeping generalization made because your opinion is Patsy didn't write the note. The QDE reports I've read indicate that Patsy can not be excluded. I don't expect the defense to produce evidence Patsy wrote the note so that judgment must also be considered. Please don't use the boondoogle statement that "on a scale of one to five the probability Patsy didn't write the note is a four," (or words to that effect). That is hogwash. There is no such scale in the world of forensic QDE reports except for those who want to work on-the-fly and "puff their wares." It was a scale a Ramsey attorney made-up to emphasize his argument as being correct. I believe Hunter also supported the statement, which in my opinion made him further look as if he didn't know much about forensic QDE reports -- please correct me if I'm wrong about Hunter.