The actual vs. desired outcome

[Holdontoyourhat]

Three VERY sterile people!

If it was three people, then it was more organized. If it was more organized, then gloves or masks wouldn't be a long stretch of the imagination. Neither would lack of DNA or fiber evidence, since we don't know what type of clothing they would wear.

Besides, there are DNA and fibers found at the crime scene not matched to any R.

Your claim that three people would necessarily have to be sterile isn't truely supported by the evidence, because there were unmatched DNA and fibers. And even if there weren't, three intruders probably would be protecting themselves with gloves and masks, etc.

 

[Toltec]

Three foreigners in the home and they cannot "kidnap" a six-year-old? Give me a break!

All three foreigners fed JonBenet pineapple, wiped her "dirty bottom", then sexually assaulted her. Then they looked around for clean underwear in her drawers. They re-dressed JonBenet, placed her blanket papoose style on her and gently laid her to rest in the wine cellar.

The cord belonged to Patsy....it belonged on one of the paintings Pam hauled out of there Dec 27th.

The paintbrush belonged to Patsy.

The "icky" duct tape belonged to John...and was found in the junk drawer.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Three foreigners in the home and they cannot "kidnap" a six-year-old? Give me a break!

All three foreigners fed JonBenet pineapple, wiped her "dirty bottom", then sexually assaulted her. Then they looked around for clean underwear in her drawers. They re-dressed JonBenet, placed her blanket papoose style on her and gently laid her to rest in the wine cellar.

The cord belonged to Patsy....it belonged on one of the paintings Pam hauled out of there Dec 27th.

The paintbrush belonged to Patsy.

The "icky" duct tape belonged to John...and was found in the junk drawer.

Something went wrong with the kidnapping attempt. Could be they accidentally killed JBR. Incidentally papoose style is evidence of another culture.

That the cord belonged to PR has been gone over and over. The cord is not-repeat not-factually linked to the house in any way shape or form. You're speculating on that one, but stating it as if it were fact.

Neither is the tape.

 

[DeeDee249]

Three people could never have done this and left NO traces of themselves. Even with gloves and masks. They'd need full-body Hazmat suits.

On another note- I do believe the ligature cord WAS cut. It is described in the autopsy report, and Coroner Meyer mentions placing marker dots on the ends, to mark the place where he made the cut. Now, this proves the knots were fixed, because of they weren't, the ligature could have been slipped over her head.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Three people could never have done this and left NO traces of themselves. Even with gloves and masks. They'd need full-body Hazmat suits.

I disagree. You're assuming that 1) all evidence that could be collected was collected, 2) all evidence that was collected belonged to the R's, and 3) three criminals representing a 'small foreign faction,' and 'familiar with LE countermeasures and tactics,' wouldn't know what to wear.

On another note- I do believe the ligature cord WAS cut. It is described in the autopsy report, and Coroner Meyer mentions placing marker dots on the ends, to mark the place where he made the cut. Now, this proves the knots were fixed, because of they weren't, the ligature could have been slipped over her head.

Yep. It had to be cut because it was embedded in the furrow around her neck. If you look at the photo, there's a large hemmorhage on her neck next to the forrow. The idea the cord was placed there after she was strangled is just preposterous.

 

[JMO8778]

Three VERY sterile people!

and very quiet ppl at that !! THREE ppl go up the stairs,where the parents are one floor up,and NO ONE hears a darn thing??!! Not possible ! Patsy wasn't stoned until after the murder,and to help her deal w. her own guilt,IMO.(like OJ's bronco ride was to him).
And since Holdon says all 3 of them didn't go to the basement,and that only one of them carried JB down there,it would have to go something like this,when they get to the bottom of the stairs:


Intruder #1,(to the other 2 intruders)- Ok,instead of going right out the door there,I'm going to take JB to the basement.I have no idea why,or what I'm going to do with her,I'm just going to,ok?
Intruders 2 and 3: ok,sure,and we'll go wait in the car. (opps,Holdon says there is no getaway car).

Sounds like something the 3 stooges would do.

 

[JMO8778]

If you look at the photo, there's a large hemmorhage on her neck next to the forrow. The idea the cord was placed there after she was strangled is just preposterous.

Dr Spitz says she was manually strangled first,that's what UK was talking about.(But I think you knew what he meant).And that large mark on her neck is Patsy's thumbprint,where she twisted JB's shirt collar,the red turtleneck she started crying over when she saw the photo of it balled up on the sink,where she'd left it after stripping it off JB that night.

 

[JMO8778]

I disagree. You're assuming that 1) all evidence that could be collected was collected, 2) all evidence that was collected belonged to the R's, and 3) three criminals representing a 'small foreign faction,' and 'familiar with LE countermeasures and tactics,' wouldn't know what to wear.

they wouldn't know how to write something as dumb as USE THAT GOOD SOUTHERN COMMON SENSE OF YOURS either.

 

[Ames]

If it was three people, then it was more organized. If it was more organized, then gloves or masks wouldn't be a long stretch of the imagination. Neither would lack of DNA or fiber evidence, since we don't know what type of clothing they would wear.

Besides, there are DNA and fibers found at the crime scene not matched to any R.

Your claim that three people would necessarily have to be sterile isn't truely supported by the evidence, because there were unmatched DNA and fibers. And even if there weren't, three intruders probably would be protecting themselves with gloves and masks, etc.

Oh really? What sort of fibers. And the only DNA that was found was DEGRADED..which means OLD. People do not shed OLD DNA. (Meaning, it came from another source...a factory worker, that could have sneezed or cough, while making or packaging the panties. I have yet to hear about any fibers being found that didn't match the Ramseys. Fibers from PATSY'S jacket were found....on the sticky side of the tape that was on JB's mouth, in the paint tray AND entwined in the garotte. Those are the only fibers that I know of, that were found, and Patsy was NOT an intruder. There is no way that NOT ONE, NOT TWO...BUT THREE intruders could have came into that house, and left without leaving any traces of themselves behind...unless they were sterile...or invisible...OR NON EXISTANT...which would be MY guess.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Dr Spitz says she was manually strangled first,that's what UK was talking about.(But I think you knew what he meant).And that large mark on her neck is Patsy's thumbprint,where she twisted JB's shirt collar,the red turtleneck she started crying over when she saw the photo of it balled up on the sink,where she'd left it after stripping it off JB that night.

Yeah right. Speaking matter-of-fact that its PR's thumbprint makes your argument seem silly because its obvious you're guessing. What you're calling a 'large mark' is a hemmorhage that starts at the cord and goes backward. And the whole turtleneck crying thing is practically a hallucination on your part.

 

[JMO8778]

Something went wrong with the kidnapping attempt.

yes,they were too dumb to take her right out the door there.

Could be they accidentally killed JBR.

Oh I'll say...8 1/2 in. crack in her skull appears to be an accident to me,yanno? (not).

Incidentally papoose style is evidence of another culture.

get real Holdon.mothers besides Indian moms swaddle babies.babies of all cultures like it because it resembles the tightness they felt in the womb.it comforts them.
it's parental behavior,an intruder would not take such care,even the FBI states this.

That the cord belonged to PR has been gone over and over. The cord is not-repeat not-factually linked to the house in any way shape or form. You're speculating on that one, but stating it as if it were fact.

Neither is the tape.

since you can not even prove there was even any cord or tape left over to begin with,your argument is not even a valid one,the point is moot.

 

[JMO8778]

Yeah right. Speaking matter-of-fact that its PR's thumbprint makes your argument seem silly because its obvious you're guessing. What you're calling a 'large mark' is a hemmorhage that starts at the cord and goes backward.

it's specifically a thumb print,(yes,that is my opinion)it's described as being about the size of a quarter in the autopsy report.but it is also a fact that Dr Spitz says she was MANUALLY strangled with a shirt collar being twisted around her neck FIRST.the ligature was an attempt to conceal that.

And the whole turtleneck crying thing is practically a hallucination on your part.

how so? she did indeed cry when she saw it,even to the point that a break had to be taken so she could regain some composure.

 

[Ames]

and very quiet ppl at that !! THREE ppl go up the stairs,where the parents are one floor up,and NO ONE hears a darn thing??!! Not possible ! Patsy wasn't stoned until after the murder,and to help her deal w. her own guilt,IMO.(like OJ's bronco ride was to him).
And since Holdon says all 3 of them didn't go to the basement,and that only one of them carried JB down there,it would have to go something like this,when they get to the bottom of the stairs:


Intruder #1,(to the other 2 intruders)- Ok,instead of going right out the door there,I'm going to take JB to the basement.I have no idea why,or what I'm going to do with her,I'm just going to,ok?
Intruders 2 and 3: ok,sure,and we'll go wait in the car. (opps,Holdon says there is no getaway car).

Sounds like something the 3 stooges would do.

Yeah, really! Why in the world would THREE people break into a house, and write a very, VERY long ransom note...but...hmmm...NOT take the victim with them? Did they forget to take the body? Did they get on their bikes, or whatever the heck they rode to the house in or on, and say..."AHHH MAN...we forgot to take the body...the ransom note is pointless now". One intruder is ridiculous....THREE intruders is just downright silly.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

yes,they were too dumb to take her right out the door there.

You're always making a big deal about why not take JBR right out the front door, as if it would be 'dumb' not to. Well, picture it. Three guys carrying a writhing JBR out to some car or other might be a little disturbing to a neighbor or passer by, right?

Its not that complicated.

The move to the basement would serve to provide added time for the three to regroup and get JBR ready. Evidence of that might be the papoose wrapping and the clothing changes.

You're assuming the papoose thing was after she was killed.

 

[Ames]

Yeah right. Speaking matter-of-fact that its PR's thumbprint makes your argument seem silly because its obvious you're guessing. What you're calling a 'large mark' is a hemmorhage that starts at the cord and goes backward. And the whole turtleneck crying thing is practically a hallucination on your part.

Patsy DID cry when she saw a picture of this balled up turtleneck on the bathroom counter. Go back and read Patsy's 1998 interview....or maybe I should say...READ Patsy's 1998 interview, and check it out for yourself. IMO..maybe I am wrong, but I don't think that you have read ANY of the interviews.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

it's specifically a thumb print,(yes,that is my opinion)it's described as being about the size of a quarter in the autopsy report.but it is also a fact that Dr Spitz says she was MANUALLY strangled with a shirt collar being twisted around her neck FIRST.the ligature was an attempt to conceal that.

how so? she did indeed cry when she saw it,even to the point that a break had to be taken so she could regain some composure.

You're not really going to rationally propose that because PR cried when she saw an article of clothing, that that means she used it to strangle JBR first, before the garrote?? Thats just more preposterous stuff. You don't think LE could find fibers from shirt collar embedded around her neck?

And Dr Spitz is getting a little ahead of himself if he thinks he can spot manual shirt-collar strangulation superimposed over ligature strangulation. Is he Cyril's cousin? Because he can see chronic abuse superimposed over an injury from sexual assault.

 

[Ames]

You're always making a big deal about why not take JBR right out the front door, as if it would be 'dumb' not to. Well, picture it. Three guys carrying a writhing JBR out to some car or other might be a little disturbing to a neighbor or passer by, right?

Its not that complicated.

The move to the basement would serve to provide added time for the three to regroup and get JBR ready. Evidence of that might be the papoose wrapping and the clothing changes.

You're assuming the papoose thing was after she was killed.

Why would they need to regroup and get JB ready?? Ready for what?? Why would those three waste precious time wrapping her like a papoose, wiping her down and replacing her underwear?

 

[JMO8778]

You may be versed on this crime, but not versed in criminology.

apparently it is you who are not versed in criminology.Criminals want a quick in and out...they do not waste time hanging around and writing 3 page ransom notes.they do not waste time taking a KN victim to the basement,esp. when an exit is right there.they plan,carry out and execute that plan quickly,in as small amt of time as possible.

Ability, opportunity, and intent are needed.

Patsy had the ability to smash her skull,the opportunity to do so as well (in her room,she was JB's main caretaker),her intent was based on anger and frustration...she did not preplan it.

PR by herself lacks the ability to carry out all the things that took place without disturbing other occupants or neighbors, especially on the spur of the moment.

PR also hasn't the opportunity to sneak away from her husband for hours and hours while accidentally murdering her daughter.

for reasons indicated previously,most of us believe JR helped her carry out a plan after the fact.

Three people with a garrote and a plan would have the ability. They had ample opportunity because of the layout of the house, and the R's schedule that evening. Their intent evidently ranged from kidnapping to sexual assault to murder. It may have varied from one intent to the other.

this is preposterous,Holdon.as above,they would have had a plan before even entering the house,which would have been quickly carried out,not fledging between one idea and another,and even another.

 

[Ames]

You're not really going to rationally propose that because PR cried when she saw an article of clothing, that that means she used it to strangle JBR first, before the garrote?? Thats just more preposterous stuff. You don't think LE could find fibers from shirt collar embedded around her neck?

And Dr Spitz is getting a little ahead of himself if he thinks he can spot manual shirt-collar strangulation superimposed over ligature strangulation. Is he Cyril's cousin? Because he can see chronic abuse superimposed over an injury from sexual assault.

Sorry, but the idea that THREE intruders would come into someone's home, write a three page ransom note, and kill the daughter down in the wine cellar, without leaving a TRACE of evidence, is extremely preposterous, in and of itself.

 

[JMO8778]

You're always making a big deal about why not take JBR right out the front door, as if it would be 'dumb' not to. Well, picture it. Three guys carrying a writhing JBR out to some car or other might be a little disturbing to a neighbor or passer by, right?

well she did have that piece of lousy used tape on her mouth,which,btw,an intruder would have brought in new,fresh tape,and not placed on her after she was already unconcious.not to mention those lousy for -staging- purposes only,wrist restraints,if you can even call them that.

The move to the basement would serve to provide added time for the three to regroup and get JBR ready. Evidence of that might be the papoose wrapping and the clothing changes.

they needed time to change her underwear? for what purpose would that be? really,you're making this up a you go along.(HoldontoYourHat sounds like a sailing name,btw,kwim?)