The actual vs. desired outcome

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

Its either that or JonBenet refused to take part in something that Patsy had already initially approved, so Patsy became enraged?

Personally I reckon this is a homicide resulting from long term molestation, whichever parent did it.

Without the multiple staging and the masking of the sexual assault, I would lean more towards some toileting incident?


.

could be,I also find JR's behavior suspect,if all he was doing was covering for Patsy.He was all too anxious 1-to be seen on CNN 2- to be seen at church 3 -to leave the state only minutes after finding JB's body 4-he even considered leaving the country,(as per PP retrieving the passports) 5- neither of them accompanied JB's body to the morgue 6-he was worried enough after Patsy's death to once again present the IDI theory to the public.(and in such a ludicrous manner at that,although I know he had help from ML).
When they went on CNN again,with Patsy wearing the blue suit for the second day in a row (to try to prove she wore the same outfit two days in a row),to me that just says it all...they appeared on tv only to try to present an innocent image,and one which John was all too anxious to present as well.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

or JonBenet refused to take part in something that Patsy had already initially approved, so Patsy became enraged?



.

I can't see her becoming enraged over that,at least not enough to kill her...I really think it would take a jealousy factor to provoke that kind of rage,although I still don't dismiss the toileting issues,considering they both were tired and it had been a long day for both Patsy and JB.
UK,I think you underestimate the amount of anger jealousy can provoke in some ppl,esp. someone like Patsy,who was competitive it seems,in a lot of ways.

 

[DeeDee249]

I think PR saying "some things you can't take back" means that she regretted losing her temper and exploding in a rage that killed her daughter. I don't think she meant to infer that she killed her on purpose. As much as I think the R were obnoxious and bullies who used their wealth to get away with killing their daughter (though accidentally) I do not believe for one moment that they intended to kill their daughter.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Actually, I don't think it can be heard from the perp, so I believe I correctly stated things the first time. But for you Holdon here's a re-write: "That question can never be answered by anyone posting on this board unless they confess and the confession can be proved legitimate so this topic is kind of hard to take seriously."

If you wanted the topic properly set you should have worded it "actual outcome vs desired outcome as confessed to by the perp." That way we'd have a clearer picture of the topic and what you are looking for.

See ya.

Well there's even an RDI scenario that has actual outcome differing from desired outcome. Accidental death was the actual outcome but rage assault was the desired outcome. "They didn't mean to kill her" is oft repeated here.

Since JBR was found sexually assaulted and brutally murdered in the basement, and since this goes against the kidnapping theme set up by the unusually brutal ransom note, it can be construed as either staging of brutality, or as a brutal perp that didn't do what he originally set out to do. Obviously RDI prefers the brutality staging idea, but that is an assumption until its proven, and so far the only proof of staging is in your mind.

I read that it is not unusual for sex criminals to change their plan from one moment to the next, and it becomes very dangerous for the victim toward the end of their assault. Some of their changes are in response to their victim's remarks or actions.

 

[JMO8778]

unusually brutal ransom note??? it comes across as soft as mashed potatoes! you can tell it's written by a woman,not just the handwriting itself,but things such as 'you will need to be rested' and the reminder to bring an 'adequate size attache' are not the verses of a hard-nosed criminal.I sense no real threat from it;the deed had already been done.
Just who do you think you're kidding,Holdon???? It's crystal clear.

 

[Solace]

Patsy's comment that "JB had to go there" (to heaven) is interesting,IMO,I wonder if by that she meant that one of them had to go (either JR or JB),because the situation was intolerable for her and too much for her to handle,and it sure wasn't going to be John being the one that 'had to go',he was her ticket to continued wealth.Dee dee had a good post saying something similar awhile back.I don't recall which thread,but she said that for both JR and Patsy,it stopped what neither of them could.
Also before she died,she made the comment that 'I guess some things you can't take back',and I wonder if by that she meant she killed JB on purpose,but later regretted it.

As soon as I read that in the interview with Patsy, I stopped. I cannot see Patsy knowing about this molestation. I can see John molesting JB though. You go along in this case and, for me, anyway, John did a very good job of coming across as a person who would not molest his daughter, very in control and I believed that he was covering for Patsy who committed this murder and it may very well be true. But as we discuss his implicating Fleet White, the MacReynolds and Merrick (along with others), it is crystal clear to me that John will do whatever is necessary to save himself. Whatever. He is not above molesting his daughter, imo.

I still lean more to the idea that it was an incident with wetting the bed, BECAUSE, they both go out of their way to deny there was a problem in this area. Patsy says she does not remember talking to Dr. Beuf (sp) about it and Thomas had the medical records to prove she had. This is not something she would forget and every housekeeper said there was a problem. The pullups were open on the shelf above the washer outside of JB's room. Patsy said she was bringing some on the Big Red Boat trip. If she were, then there was still a problem with wetting the bed.

I really really would like to know more about the red turtleneck and if it were checked for urine. I don't understand why Thomas did not address more of that in his book.

This is a cold case. When is someone going to be assigned to it and go through the WAREHOUSE of evidence that is still there. There is an answer there, there is.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I thought you'd find this interesting, Solace, I know I do - I was re-reading that section in ST where Nedra is asked about JonBenet's incontinence issue...Nedra admits that JB wets the bed, but ST says both Pam and Polly Paugh deny it.

Why did Pam and Polly deny it? Had they not been told the incontinence issue existed, and didn't know about it, or did they think they were protecting the Rs by denying it?

I tend to believe that Thomas does not tell us all he can about certain things like the red turtleneck and being checked for urine because he's sitting on information/evidence that might be of maximum use in court, rather than in the pages of his book. I hope so, anyway.

And I also want to know what's being done about that warehouse of evidence! There is no reason to allow this case to go cold when a potentially dangerous killer is loose and may strike again.

 

[BOESP]

JMO, I'm not sure what to make of the "had to go there" remark. When I read it, I was reminded of viewpoints taught in many southern denominations, particularly Baptist. If Patsy believed in predestination the remark wouldn't be unusual. She may have had the attitude that "the Lord wanted her home with him." That viewpoint isn't unusual where I grew up so her saying it didn't sound sinister to me. It might also help her cope after the fact.

NP, thank you, and glad to see you posting here. I always enjoy reading your posts.

Solace, like you, I am undecided about John's involvement although there is no doubt someone, at least twice, intruded on JonBenet's private parts in a way that is not normal. If she had treatments at the doctor's office that could explain some of the autopsy evidence, however, Beuf denies ever doing an internal gynecological exam. It could be explained by a cleansing routine of some kind or by molestation by someone other than John.

I can't see Patsy protecting John if she thought or knew he was molesting JonBenet. There was no reason to do that unless Patsy practiced the typical behavior of a wife protecting a husband at all costs. According to statistics, some women do that.

In my opinion, Patsy was addicted to money, attention, and an upscale lifestyle. If John were guilty and she testified against him, she could have taken John to the cleaners. I can't see her staying with John if she knew he molested JonBenet. I also can't see her protecting anyone but herself or maybe Burke, but that's just my opinion.

If Patsy killed JonBenet, then I think John decided the family and church would take care of the problem internally because Patsy was not a criminal. I think he believed her cancer would come back and she should live as easily as possible for ever how long she had left. I'd speculate that they both thought losing JonBenet was a punishment far harsher than any court could deliver. I can't see that anything would be served by sending Patsy to prison. I've said it before and still feel that way. My opinion, however, doesn't count. :bang:

 

[Solace]

JMO, I'm not sure what to make of the "had to go there" remark. When I read it, I was reminded of viewpoints taught in many southern denominations, particularly Baptist. If Patsy believed in predestination the remark wouldn't be unusual. She may have had the attitude that "the Lord wanted her home with him." That viewpoint isn't unusual where I grew up so her saying it didn't sound sinister to me. It might also help her cope after the fact.

NP, thank you, and glad to see you posting here. I always enjoy reading your posts.

Solace, like you, I am undecided about John's involvement although there is no doubt someone, at least twice, intruded on JonBenet's private parts in a way that is not normal. If she had treatments at the doctor's office that could explain some of the autopsy evidence, however, Beuf denies ever doing an internal gynecological exam. It could be explained by a cleansing routine of some kind or by molestation by someone other than John.

I can't see Patsy protecting John if she thought or knew he was molesting JonBenet. There was no reason to do that unless Patsy practiced the typical behavior of a wife protecting a husband at all costs. According to statistics, some women do that.

In my opinion, Patsy was addicted to money, attention, and an upscale lifestyle. If John were guilty and she testified against him, she could have taken John to the cleaners. I can't see her staying with John if she knew he molested JonBenet. I also can't see her protecting anyone but herself or maybe Burke, but that's just my opinion.

If Patsy killed JonBenet, then I think John decided the family and church would take care of the problem internally because Patsy was not a criminal. I think he believed her cancer would come back and she should live as easily as possible for ever how long she had left. I'd speculate that they both thought losing JonBenet was a punishment far harsher than any court could deliver. I can't see that anything would be served by sending Patsy to prison. I've said it before and still feel that way. My opinion, however, doesn't count. :bang:

Counts to me and I am sure everyone else on this Board. My feeling is this case is not going to be solved any time soon. So that is what we are trying to do here and I think we are doing an excellent job of dissecting and that is how crimes are solved.

I am 1000% sure that Jeffrey MacDonald killed his family, but that is because we have the blood evidence and it is followed. We do not have that here except for the "words" of John and Patsy and Burke. We also have the fiber evidence. I think we have enough. I also think there is more in that warehouse.

 

[UKGuy]

I can't see her becoming enraged over that,at least not enough to kill her...I really think it would take a jealousy factor to provoke that kind of rage,although I still don't dismiss the toileting issues,considering they both were tired and it had been a long day for both Patsy and JB.
UK,I think you underestimate the amount of anger jealousy can provoke in some ppl,esp. someone like Patsy,who was competitive it seems,in a lot of ways.

JMO8778,

Well similarly if John was abusing JonBenet with Patsy's tacit consent, or even without, I cannot see jealousy as the origin of an enraged assault upon JonBenet. Patsy due to her chemo-treatment was disenganged from John intimately, she also disliked some of his requests, whereas formerly, early in her marriage, she may have deferred to John's requests to keep the relationship strong, who knows this may have been an ongoing issue throughout their time together?

JonBenet may have played a larger role than people realize, with someone teaching her adult behaviour, encouraging her to wear lipstick, color her hair etc. JonBenet's pageant dress-up and moves may have been repeated in the family-house? It appears certain that someone was photographing JonBenet, pageants offer an excuse for the taking of these pictures, just how erotically themed these photographs are, we do not know, but possibly enough for search warrants to be issued for child ?

imo the toilet rage theory is an acceptable explanation for what appears to be the result of unintended accident, with other circumstances best described as part of a cover up.

But there is more to it than that, JonBenet, allegedly, displayed signs of prior molestation, she wet the bed regularly, had poor personal hygiene, had next no personal boundaries, e.g. asking people to wipe her down. She participated in pageants, wearing adult styled clothing and making provocative moves, so as a victim, even before the night of the 25th, JonBenet was already displaying signs of acute vulnerability.

Then there is the manner of her death, that her crime-scene was manifestly staged, and that her sexual assault was cleaned up and hidden from view.
All of this is not needed if all you wish to present is either an intruder homicide, or abduction. Also as you point out John's subsequent actions were either to fly out of the state, or to present himself in a particular manner.

.

 

[BOESP]

Counts to me and I am sure everyone else on this Board. My feeling is this case is not going to be solved any time soon. So that is what we are trying to do here and I think we are doing an excellent job of dissecting and that is how crimes are solved.

I am 1000% sure that Jeffrey MacDonald killed his family, but that is because we have the blood evidence and it is followed. We do not have that here except for the "words" of John and Patsy and Burke. We also have the fiber evidence. I think we have enough. I also think there is more in that warehouse.

Yes, dissecting the evidence and putting the facts together draws a good picture. There are some pieces missing but the whole ball of wax as the public knows it convinces many the Ramseys knew/know more than they told.

I'll speculate this will remain an officially open case until John Ramsey and Alex Hunter are both resting in their graves. I'd bet it will become a re-opened cold case within five years after their deaths. Some new hot-shot criminology or pre-law student will take it on as a thesis.

Fort Bragg .... interesting place. Yep, I agree. McDonald is guilty as sin.

 

[Solace]

JMO8778,

Well similarly if John was abusing JonBenet with Patsy's tacit consent, or even without, I cannot see jealousy as the origin of an enraged assault upon JonBenet. Patsy due to her chemo-treatment was disenganged from John intimately, she also disliked some of his requests, whereas formerly, early in her marriage, she may have deferred to John's requests to keep the relationship strong, who knows this may have been an ongoing issue throughout their time together?

JonBenet may have played a larger role than people realize, with someone teaching her adult behaviour, encouraging her to wear lipstick, color her hair etc. JonBenet's pageant dress-up and moves may have been repeated in the family-house? It appears certain that someone was photographing JonBenet, pageants offer an excuse for the taking of these pictures, just how erotically themed these photographs are, we do not know, but possibly enough for search warrants to be issued for child ?

imo the toilet rage theory is an acceptable explanation for what appears to be the result of unintended accident, with other circumstances best described as part of a cover up.

But there is more to it than that, JonBenet, allegedly, displayed signs of prior molestation, she wet the bed regularly, had poor personal hygiene, had next no personal boundaries, e.g. asking people to wipe her down. She participated in pageants, wearing adult styled clothing and making provocative moves, so as a victim, even before the night of the 25th, JonBenet was already displaying signs of acute vulnerability.

Then there is the manner of her death, that her crime-scene was manifestly staged, and that her sexual assault was cleaned up and hidden from view.
All of this is not needed if all you wish to present is either an intruder homicide, or abduction. Also as you point out John's subsequent actions were either to fly out of the state, or to present himself in a particular manner.

.

In fairness to Patsy, we do not know if she was disengaged from John. She had been given a clean bill of health and was NOT going through chemo at the time of the "murder".

 

[coloradokares]

JMO, I'm not sure what to make of the "had to go there" remark. When I read it, I was reminded of viewpoints taught in many southern denominations, particularly Baptist. If Patsy believed in predestination the remark wouldn't be unusual. She may have had the attitude that "the Lord wanted her home with him." That viewpoint isn't unusual where I grew up so her saying it didn't sound sinister to me. It might also help her cope after the fact.

NP, thank you, and glad to see you posting here. I always enjoy reading your posts.

Solace, like you, I am undecided about John's involvement although there is no doubt someone, at least twice, intruded on JonBenet's private parts in a way that is not normal. If she had treatments at the doctor's office that could explain some of the autopsy evidence, however, Beuf denies ever doing an internal gynecological exam. It could be explained by a cleansing routine of some kind or by molestation by someone other than John.

I can't see Patsy protecting John if she thought or knew he was molesting JonBenet. There was no reason to do that unless Patsy practiced the typical behavior of a wife protecting a husband at all costs. According to statistics, some women do that.

In my opinion, Patsy was addicted to money, attention, and an upscale lifestyle. If John were guilty and she testified against him, she could have taken John to the cleaners. I can't see her staying with John if she knew he molested JonBenet. I also can't see her protecting anyone but herself or maybe Burke, but that's just my opinion.

If Patsy killed JonBenet, then I think John decided the family and church would take care of the problem internally because Patsy was not a criminal. I think he believed her cancer would come back and she should live as easily as possible for ever how long she had left. I'd speculate that they both thought losing JonBenet was a punishment far harsher than any court could deliver. I can't see that anything would be served by sending Patsy to prison. I've said it before and still feel that way. My opinion, however, doesn't count. :bang:

I think that Patsy would not Kill the cash cow. She knew that eventually alot of things would end if the cash cow was dead or in prison. Eventually even her health care. Does not take a long time to go through the money when you have a spender like Patsy and her entire family. What was it Nedra said. As long as John kept making it they would enjoy spending it?

 

[UKGuy]

In fairness to Patsy, we do not know if she was disengaged from John. She had been given a clean bill of health and was NOT going through chemo at the time of the "murder".

Solace,
Sure, we do not know for certain, but Patsy is quoted as making remarks about John requests, the effects of the chemo' wouldnot have helped either.

 

[BOESP]

JMO8778,

Well similarly if John was abusing JonBenet with Patsy's tacit consent, or even without, I cannot see jealousy as the origin of an enraged assault upon JonBenet. Patsy due to her chemo-treatment was disenganged from John intimately, she also disliked some of his requests, whereas formerly, early in her marriage, she may have deferred to John's requests to keep the relationship strong, who knows this may have been an ongoing issue throughout their time together?

JonBenet may have played a larger role than people realize, with someone teaching her adult behaviour, encouraging her to wear lipstick, color her hair etc. JonBenet's pageant dress-up and moves may have been repeated in the family-house? It appears certain that someone was photographing JonBenet, pageants offer an excuse for the taking of these pictures, just how erotically themed these photographs are, we do not know, but possibly enough for search warrants to be issued for child ?

imo the toilet rage theory is an acceptable explanation for what appears to be the result of unintended accident, with other circumstances best described as part of a cover up.

But there is more to it than that, JonBenet, allegedly, displayed signs of prior molestation, she wet the bed regularly, had poor personal hygiene, had next no personal boundaries, e.g. asking people to wipe her down. She participated in pageants, wearing adult styled clothing and making provocative moves, so as a victim, even before the night of the 25th, JonBenet was already displaying signs of acute vulnerability.

Then there is the manner of her death, that her crime-scene was manifestly staged, and that her sexual assault was cleaned up and hidden from view.
All of this is not needed if all you wish to present is either an intruder homicide, or abduction. Also as you point out John's subsequent actions were either to fly out of the state, or to present himself in a particular manner.

.

UKGuy, I agree 100% that JonBenet exhibited many characteristics of a molested child. That bothers me. As I mentioned a few months ago, my close friend who spent 25 years with CPS thinks Patsy caught John with JonBenet and in trying to strike John missed him and hit JonBenet. My problem with that as most readers here know is I don't believe the head wound is consistent with being struck because it appears to be a low-velocity/high-pressure wound. I think the injury was either a combination of two events that damaged her skull simultaneously or two events occurring near the same time such as JonBenet falling and striking her head and, say, for example, an adult falling on top of her and a lot of weight being placed on the already damaged skull. I suppose a scuffle could have ensued and maybe JonBenet came between two angry parents but that, again, is just my speculation.

Regardless, the entire scene and known events aren't consistent with what is known about Intruder invasion and homicide. Nope. No way.

On the other hand, in my opinion, what has been written about John Ramsey coupled with the hearsay statements made by people in conversation with Patsy, he fits the pattern of a philanderer, not a child molestor. The age gap between him and Patsy isn't unheard of but it isn't the norm. And now he is dating someone with an even larger age gap. I don't see much point in getting into a big discussion on that but old man/young woman suggests several things. :waitasec:

 

[Solace]

Solace,
Sure, we do not know for certain, but Patsy is quoted as making remarks about John requests, the effects of the chemo' wouldnot have helped either.

I understand and it was probably not reckless lust, but we do not know for sure whether their marriage was celebate. And it is important; it is something we cannot assume. I would venture to say that it was probably nondescript, but then again, we can't say for sure.

 

[Solace]

UKGuy, I agree 100% that JonBenet exhibited many characteristics of a molested child. That bothers me. As I mentioned a few months ago, my close friend who spent 25 years with CPS thinks Patsy caught John with JonBenet and in trying to strike John missed him and hit JonBenet. My problem with that as most readers here know is I don't believe the head wound is consistent with being struck because it appears to be a low-velocity/high-pressure wound.

BOESP, I agree with you on this. BUT I NEED TO KNOW MORE ABOUT WHY YOU SAY THIS. Because up to now, all I could say to back my opinion is that I thought it was an accident and she was thrown and everyone counters with this is an injury consistent with being hit by a heavy object and nothing else works for this type of injury.

Please tell me why it is possible. Thanks.

 

[Squishified]

I think that Patsy would not Kill the cash cow. She knew that eventually alot of things would end if the cash cow was dead or in prison. Eventually even her health care. Does not take a long time to go through the money when you have a spender like Patsy and her entire family. What was it Nedra said. As long as John kept making it they would enjoy spending it?

Hi coloradokares,
I have nothing to add to your post, but wanted to say it's good to "see" you. Hope you are doing well.

 

[Solace]

Hi coloradokares,
I have nothing to add to your post, but wanted to say it's good to "see" you. Hope you are doing well.

Me too Colorado!!!:blowkiss:

 

[BOESP]

I think that Patsy would not Kill the cash cow. She knew that eventually alot of things would end if the cash cow was dead or in prison. Eventually even her health care. Does not take a long time to go through the money when you have a spender like Patsy and her entire family. What was it Nedra said. As long as John kept making it they would enjoy spending it?

Good point, CK. Also, I'm happy to see you posting. We've missed your input.

I would have thought the courts would have seen that John's assets, investments, etc. covered Patsy and the kids forever. I guess, too, Patsy could have thought about Burke and what he might do if Patsy died and his daddy was in prison. I'm not sure how I feel about John. I'm sure he could care less.

There are so many things to think about in this case. :waitasec: