The actual vs. desired outcome

[Rino]

Any thoughts on Patsy causing the head wound and after telling John, he uses the ligature to stage the crime (or put JB "out of her misery")?
This thought just came to me now (although it's probably been discussed before ).

Interesting.

I always believed he did stage the crime and unwittingly killed her believing she was dead by Patsys actions.

The putting her out of her misery is something I never considered before. How horrid that would be

 

[Squishified]

Hi Rino,
I always (except for the brief time I was IDI) thought that Patsy did both the head wound and the ligature. But now that I think about it, I can see John doing the strangling part.

 

[BOESP]

Any thoughts on Patsy causing the head wound and after telling John, he uses the ligature to stage the crime (or put JB "out of her misery")?
This thought just came to me now (although it's probably been discussed before ).

I lean toward that idea, Squishy. I wouldn't say Patsy would not do it but I think it fits a man's actions better than a woman's. I'd speculate that someone with a sailboat would knows about knots.

 

[BOESP]

Interesting.

I always believed he did stage the crime and unwittingly killed her believing she was dead by Patsys actions.

The putting her out of her misery is something I never considered before. How horrid that would be

I'd say the "unwittingly killed" idea would be my first choice, Rino. I don't particularly like the John I've seen on television and videos but I doubt he could purposely kill his daughter even for mercy. However, it's a possibility.

 

[Ames]

Any thoughts on Patsy causing the head wound and after telling John, he uses the ligature to stage the crime (or put JB "out of her misery")?
This thought just came to me now (although it's probably been discussed before ).

That is the first thought that popped into my mind, when this murder first happened, Dec. 26, 1996. I could see them both doing that, before I could imagine them doing it just to save their own butts. Of course, it could be a combo of both.

 

[JMO8778]

JR's lack of fiber evidence there is something that makes me think may not have done that part..and Patsy's arm hair on the blanket...the scream heard...I think it was Patsy,after JB was dead.
but it was said to stop suddenly,so did JR cover her mouth w. his hand???
did he tell her how to tie the knot,or did she know how to herself? on that last interview she did,she was driving a boat.not a sailboat,but I still wonder if she would have known how to tie that knot.

 

[Squishified]

I have no idea how to make a ligature or garrote, so that is why I think John may have done it. Patsy doesn't look like the type that knows how to make knots either.
It also explains why they covered each other's butts, if they are equally responsible.

 

[JMO8778]

Not only did the experts agree that it was written by a woman, but JOHN also said that he believed it was too! HMMM...(another set-up perhaps? By John who is ready to throw Patsy under the bus, before HE goes to jail?)

he even handed LE the notepad the RN was written on...Patsy clearly wasn't thinking,but he was ! he was probably thinking 'here,take it,take it, take it !!!!'

 

[Solace]

I lean toward that idea, Squishy. I wouldn't say Patsy would not do it but I think it fits a man's actions better than a woman's. I'd speculate that someone with a sailboat would knows about knots.

Yes it is. Something John would handle.

 

[JMO8778]

I have no idea how to make a ligature or garrote, so that is why I think John may have done it. Patsy doesn't look like the type that knows how to make knots either.
It also explains why they covered each other's butts, if they are equally responsible.

I've considered that,too.
For some reason,Thomas felt Patsy did it,so I wonder if perhaps there is more evidence he isn't revealing? Or is what was there enough to come to a definite conclusion,as far as which one of them did that part? I definitely rule out intruder.

 

[Squishified]

I've considered that,too.
For some reason,Thomas felt Patsy did it,so I wonder if perhaps there is more evidence he isn't revealing? Or is what was there enough to come to a definite conclusion,as far as which one of them did that part? I definitely rule out intruder.

It is very easy to figure out that Patsy is involved in JB's death. John is the mysterious one. He is very hard to read. I honestly change my mind about his involvement on a daily basis.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

perhaps there is more evidence he isn't revealing?

That's what I'm banking on, JMO. Thomas goes into good detail on some things, and glosses over other things. I think he definitely knows more than he is saying, but I really have to wonder exactly what it is that has him giving JR such little involvement.

I just can't believe that JR would see that RN and not realize his wife wrote it. I further cannot believe that he would jeopardize having JonBenet's head cut off by letting Patsy make seemingly hysterical calls to police and friends, and I definitely do not believe that JR would have let Burke go anywhere with anyone if he had actually believed the ransom note could possibly be real.

So in my mind, based on the fact that JR seemed to think nothing of disregarding the threats in the RN as if he knew there was no real threat, I really have to wonder why Thomas didn't address that.

On top of that, IIRC, after the Rs leave the house to go to the Fernie's, they don't go pick up Burke at the Whites right away - someone brings him over to the Fernie's later. Why on EARTH would you leave your other child at a friend's house if you've found your youngest dead in the basement and don't know who killed her or where that person is?

 

[Squishified]

I don't understand why information is still being withheld. It hasn't done any good so far-what's the harm in releasing everything?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

It is very easy to figure out that Patsy is involved in JB's death. John is the mysterious one. He is very hard to read. I honestly change my mind about his involvement on a daily basis.

I change my mind about him, too. I used to think he woke up not knowing anything was out of the ordinary until he heard Patsy scream, but he had to know the RN was fake...or else he doesn't care about the safety of either of his two youngest children at all. Why else would he disregard the threats in the RN, risking JB's head being cut off and sending Burke out, not knowing who's watching or what they might do if they got ahold of Burke?

And that leads me to ask...if this is a stun-gun wielding SFF-representing alcoholic, drug-using, kiddie--watching, beauty-pageant-and-Christmas-hating, disgruntled Muslim ex-employee who can sneak around the R house all night not making any noise or leaving any forensic evidence, why didn't he really stick it to JR and kill both kids at once, and then set fire to the house on his way out?

 

[Solace]

I change my mind about him, too. I used to think he woke up not knowing anything was out of the ordinary until he heard Patsy scream, but he had to know the RN was fake...or else he doesn't care about the safety of either of his two youngest children at all. Why else would he disregard the threats in the RN, risking JB's head being cut off and sending Burke out, not knowing who's watching or what they might do if they got ahold of Burke?

And that leads me to ask...if this is a stun-gun wielding SFF-representing alcoholic, drug-using, kiddie--watching, beauty-pageant-and-Christmas-hating, disgruntled Muslim ex-employee who can sneak around the R house all night not making any noise or leaving any forensic evidence, why didn't he really stick it to JR and kill both kids at once, and then set fire to the house on his way out?

Hi NP,

John knew. He would never, ever call his friends over if it were a REAL kidnapping. He is not going to do that and the IDIs can say it is possible until they raise Clarence Darrow from the dead, but you know what, we all know he will not do that. Would you do that? You get up find a note, call your husband, freak out and he is reading it and says call the police. Firstly, he would not say call the police (he might) until he read the whole thing. He might out of instinctiveness say call the police. BUT HE IS NEVER GOING TO LET HER CALL HER FRIENDS. NEVER.

His fibers from his shirt are in JB's underwear. I know defense would argue that away in a sec, transference and such, but it still places him close by.

He wants to leave immediately after finding her. How many mothers do you think are capable of leaving their dead child within 20 minutes of finding her. I don't think you will find many. They need time to get use to the idea (if that is possible) but they need some time. They will most likely not go willingly. I think they were gone by 2:00 p.m. But then again if she were killed at midnight, I think Patsy would have gotten use to the idea by then.

They let Burke go to the Fernsies when the house was replete with police and the chances that the kidnappers would come back their are nill. I understand that Burke had a police escort - but I still think the parents would want him by their side at the very least.

He knew, imo.

Also he says in DOI he wished the police had been more discreet. He does not mention Patsy being indiscreet calling her friends. Someone on another thread is talking about a killer named Hobbs(sp) and how he found the body of his daughter and friend (I think that is it) and he did so to damage the crime scene with his fibers. John is reading John Douglas' book; it is by his bedside. Unusual coincidence, but I believe it is just that a coincidence and this killing is a rage "accident". But douglas certainly discusses things re a murder and parents killing in that book - John is not going to forget everything.

 

[Squishified]

I just haven't decided at WHAT POINT he knew. Perhaps when he slipped up and said something about 3:00 in the morning?

 

[Ames]

I just haven't decided at WHAT POINT he knew. Perhaps when he slipped up and said something about 3:00 in the morning?

I believe..IMO..that after Patsy injured JB....she probably placed her on the bed, to try to revive her...after she realized that she had been knocked unconscious. She SCREAMED bloody murder for John, who was getting ready for bed...and maybe already IN the bed. He runs in wearing just his underwear...(sorry for the visual!)....and tries to help revive her. THAT..imo...explains why he said that he looked under JB's bed, for her...while wearing his underwear. Just in case, any underwear fibers were found around the bed. I still don't think that he was molesting her....maybe so...but, I just can't wrap my mind around that, even though...it happens ALL THE TIME, probably every second of every day, a child is molested by their own father. But, for some reason....as slimey as John is....I just can't see him doing that. And WHY would he do that anyway, with Patsy still in the house...that makes no sense.

 

[Squishified]

Hi Ames,
You're scenario makes a lot of sense. I, too, do not see John as a molester. And I don't know why, either. Perhaps it's because he had already lost a daughter. (?)
Also, I think he may have been cheating on Patsy.

 

[BOESP]

... Why on EARTH would you leave your other child at a friend's house if you've found your youngest dead in the basement and don't know who killed her or where that person is?

Lack of parenting skills in a self-centered person???? Or, you know who did it and aren't afraid for your other child to be in a friend's hands (particularly friends who you later throw under the bus)????

NP, I think they forgot to CYA when it came to Burke. I am convinced there was a plan to "find" JonBenet and Linda Arndt's suggestion was the opportunity John was waiting for (so he wouldn't have to construct an opportunity). I think they sent Burke away so he wouldn't be exposed to seeing JonBenet in rigor, wrapped in a blanket and placed upstairs for the world to see.

 

[Solace]

I just haven't decided at WHAT POINT he knew. Perhaps when he slipped up and said something about 3:00 in the morning?

You mean when he said "I don't know there were a lot of people around at 3:00 in the morning". I agree with you. But he slips up a lot. With Melinda's future husband - saying they found her at 11:00 a.m. - But that would make one believe that he did not know about it because he says she was found at 11 when actually it was 1:00 P.M. BUT, as we see with John, he confuses times and events because THERE WAS SO MUCH HAPPENING. It is hard keeping this all together especially since his sub conscious knows he is lying.

I think he knew. I think Patsy went to him as soon as she realized she hurt JonBenet possibly fatally. Why would she keep it from John. She has shoved her and JB falls and is fatally injured but there is no blood. Why wouldn't Patsy get John, she is not sure she is dead, she knows she hurt her and the crack was loud because of the displacement in the skull and she is aware that damage was done, but she is not sure how much. She would call John and the John would assess and "Patsy, she is dead". Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh sh%#. And Patsy breaks down uncontrollably and John decides to help her.