The actual vs. desired outcome

You forget Nuisance, a woman was there when this was still going down and she fell for Patsy and thought John was Ted Bundy.

Linda Arndt. ;)

Just poking you with a stick. A long stick. It took me awhile to figure out what sahm meant. I don't get out much.

What I find odd is Patsy correcting herself. It seems to me it would have been better to just let it go. In fact I find that very odd and risky. It makes me wonder if Patsy didn't draw the heart herself as a loving act to a dead JonBenet. Maybe it was Patsy's way of saying I'm sorry.
 
You forget Nuisance, a woman was there when this was still going down and she fell for Patsy and thought John was Ted Bundy.

Linda Arndt. ;)

Just poking you with a stick. A long stick. It took me awhile to figure out what sahm meant. I don't get out much.

What I find odd is Patsy correcting herself. It seems to me it would have been better to just let it go. In fact I find that very odd and risky. It makes me wonder if Patsy didn't draw the heart herself as a loving act to a dead JonBenet. Maybe it was Patsy's way of saying I'm sorry.
Ohh don't get me started on LA...she's one female who just doesn't 'get it'.She let Patsy pull a patsy on her..she was more concerned with the 'party-goers' than with keeping up with JR.(no insult to the innocent ones there,it's just as you said Albert..forget the bullets,are we ok w/ the ice and chips???) Why not go looking for him??? I'd have cornered him and let him have it as to why he wasn't upset when the call didn't come by 10am!!! And why let him search the house without LE assistance?? Why move JB's body and allow it to be covered,thus further contaminating the crime scene??Surely she was taught better than that.
While I do believe she saw guilt in JR's eyes,I don't think it was guilt from being the one who killed JB,I think it was from him being involved in the coverup.Or at least,he didn't do the initial damage(the head injury).
 
As a sahm myself, I could not agree more. Most mothers develop a keen sense for lies and sketchy stories and scenarios that don't quite sound right, and they usually have fairly sharp observation skills - the proverbial "eyes in the back of the head." Quite often the job of Mom requires being able to think fast in any situation, and come up with diplomatic answers to soothe the most highly irrational and notoriously impatient people (toddlers and teenagers.)

That's one thing that's always bothered about Patsy talking about the heart on JB's hand, saying one day that she'd seen it and it was well-drawn, then announcing at the beginning of the interview first thing the very day that she had been mistaken and hadn't seen it after all, but must have read about it in the autopsy report (the same one her husband said they didn't read.)

How could she know how well-drawn it was to comment on that specific aspect of it if she'd never seen it...and didn't she have a less transparent way to correct the blunder she'd made it admitting she'd seen it than by using a tactic that is on the level of a grade school child? Who didn't see right through that?

I can guarantee you a sahm mom, or probably any mom present at that interview, would have zeroed in on that obvious attempt to do a complete turn-around and deny having actually seen it when she just said she had (and close/long enough to judge how well drawn it was) and asked Patsy the necessary questions to figure out if she saw it or not.

It's like this: suppose my 12 yr old daughter's teacher calls...some girls were caught passing notes, and it looks like my daughter was involved, but not clear. As I drive my daughter to school, I ask her about the note the teacher seized, and she tells me something she would only know if she had seen it herself - "It was written in very good penmanship." She goes to school and talks to her friends. They confer with each other, figuring out who knows what, who was asked what and by whom, what story was bunk and how to fix it, and by the time I pick my daughter up from school, she gets in the car and right away has a different story to tell. This time she tells me she was wrong - she hadn't seen the note after all, but she heard her teacher tell another teacher what it said in it.

First off, I'm tipped off that her story isn't right because she starts in on it without me even bringing it up. Obviously it's an issue of concern on her mind if it's the first thing she says as soon as she gets in the car. Second, it doesn't match with what she said yesterday...'what the note said'? She said it was written in very good penmanship...how do you go from knowing how well the letters were formed to only knowing the contents of the note by hearing one person rely the most basic info to another, without saying anything about the penmanship?

So then I'd be left asking myself...why is she changing her story? Why is she back-pedaling and denying she'd seen the note enough to assess a grade for penmanship, and why is it so important to her to start telling me that right away before I even ask her about it?

I think I know the answer in Patsy's case...she saw the heart, and admitted it when asked the first day. Then when she got done, she told JR and/or the attys what she'd said, and she realized she'd messed up bigtime by saying she'd not only seen the heart, but that she had got a good enough look to judge artistic ability...and then she was desperate enough to need to correct that admission that she either didn't realize or didn't care how obvious it was that she needed to change her story as soon as possible.

Wow, sorry for going on so long,

not at all,that was well-said !
but stuff that obvious in this case really boils my potatoes. Why weren't they tougher on the Rs? Why didn't they actually ask intense questions that require real answers that get somewhere,
I agree,they should have been grilled to the max!!

instead of make cordial conversation with them about the case and try to gain info in a round-about manner, taking care not upset poor, delicate, suffering, steel magnolia Patsy
yes,and I think I've said it before,but I'm surprised they didn't pat her on the head and say 'there ,there now Patsy...you don't have to answer those questions if you don't want to !!'

or cause stoic, detached JR to have to try to recall something clearly, or even know something about his own family?? ugh, like that interview with Smit where he practically supplies JR with the answers he wants to hear - what the hell. Send a woman in there, specifically a seasoned mother, and let her ferret out the plausible from the outright lies.
absolutely ! And Smit is such a schmuck.
 
Ohh don't get me started on LA...she's one female who just doesn't 'get it'.She let Patsy pull a patsy on her..she was more concerned with the 'party-goers' than with keeping up with JR.(no insult to the innocent ones there,it's just as you said Albert..forget the bullets,are we ok w/ the ice and chips???) Why not go looking for him??? I'd have cornered him and let him have it as to why he wasn't upset when the call didn't come by 10am!!! And why let him search the house without LE assistance?? Why move JB's body and allow it to be covered,thus further contaminating the crime scene??Surely she was taught better than that.
While I do believe she saw guilt in JR's eyes,I don't think it was guilt from being the one who killed JB,I think it was from him being involved in the coverup.Or at the least,he didn't do the initial damage(the head injury).

Yeah, double you tee eff on LA. First she's moving the body (she HAD to have known better!), convinced JR is dangerous, counting bullets, then she's consoling sobbing Patsy as Burke is interviewed, then she's thrilled to accept flowers from 'John and Patsy' and has developed complete amnesia about whatever happened on 12/26/96, telling BPD to just go with what she had written in her reports...and now she's regained her memory enough to be writing a book about how we don't know 90% of the facts.

She wasn't a mother at the time, Albert, and opposite of honing the skill of sniffing out a snow job by raising kids, she was known for her compassion and listening skills as well as her caring and sympathetic style (PMPT, page 12.) She specialized on sexual assault cases prior to the Ramsey case, and I guarantee you those witnesses were a different cup of tea than J&P Ramsey. She didn't stand a chance in the face of manipulators like the Rs if she treated them the same way she handled actual victims, and we know Eller had sent word that the Rs be treated as victims and not suspects....but if she really thought JR was dangerous and counted her bullets, how did she do such a 180 later on and decide he wasn't? What about the weirdness with his supposedly finding a window open but instead of yelling for LA to come see it, he closes it and keeps his mouth similarly closed about it for four months?

I also find Patsy's need to address the issue with the heart rather odd and very risky....it was that transparent. I can't believe IDI actually excuse it as Patsy being distraught and in such mourning that she can't think straight. I don't know which is more pathetic - Patsy trying to pass that off as truth in such an obvious fashion, or the interviewers failing to zone in on it and get some real answers about whether she'd seen the heart or not.

The 'well-drawn' comment leads me to believe that Patsy knew exactly who drew the heart, or whatever it was, and that it may very well have been her. I also suspect if Patsy was the person who put that drawing on JB's hand, it was some sort of act to make things better, an endearment, perhaps an attempt at an apology.

The fact that she admitted to even seeing it in the first place kinda makes me think she knew JB drew it - I think she would have staunchly denied seeing it at all if she had actually been the one who drew it. She tried to distance herself like that from all of the items at the breakfast table, right down to box of Kleenex. I assume she would have tried to distance herself from the heart just as hard if she had drawn it after JB was injured/dead with complete denial of ever having seen anything even remotely resembling a drawing on JonBenet's person ever at any time.
 
Yeah, double you tee eff on LA. First she's moving the body (she HAD to have known better!), convinced JR is dangerous, counting bullets, then she's consoling sobbing Patsy as Burke is interviewed, then she's thrilled to accept flowers from 'John and Patsy' and has developed complete amnesia about whatever happened on 12/26/96, telling BPD to just go with what she had written in her reports...and now she's regained her memory enough to be writing a book about how we don't know 90% of the facts.

..and she also sent the R's attorneys a copy of the RN,and a list of questions,such as 'DID JB HAVE ANYTHING TO EAT???'. BIG tipoff there!! And she still won't admit she did anything wrong...she says she still stands by everything she did,to this day.:rolleyes:
The book...oh yes..as I understand it,it puts suspicion on JR.I think Patsy was worried he would turn on her after her death,and so she tossed the ball into his court,so to speak.I would take anything she says w/ a grain of salt.I think most ppl aren't going to believe it anyway.The truth always stands out.
 
The Rs were allowed liberties NO other people in their place would ever get. Son were their lawyers. That just goes to show you how "High-Up" their their (and their lawyers') connections were.

Yes, Moms (& wives) have a special antannae when it comes to kids and spouses telling the truth. Arndt had neither (kids nor husband). So that may explain the way she dealt with the Rs. Arndt also was used to dealing with rape and assault victims who were female. She was sympathetic to the woman victim (which at first she believed PR to be- and maybe still does).
 
..and she also sent the R's attorneys a copy of the RN,and a list of questions,such as 'DID JB HAVE ANYTHING TO EAT???'. BIG tipoff there!! And she still won't admit she did anything wrong...she says she still stands by everything she did,to this day.:rolleyes:
The book...oh yes..as I understand it,it puts suspicion on JR.I think Patsy was worried he would turn on her after her death,and so she tossed the ball into his court,so to speak.I would take anything she says w/ a grain of salt.I think most ppl aren't going to believe it anyway.The truth always stands out.


Hi JMO,

What do you mean Patsy tossed the ball into John's court before she died. Do you think Patsy spoke to Arndt and place the blame on John?

This book is not out yet is it?
 
As a sahm myself, I could not agree more. Most mothers develop a keen sense for lies and sketchy stories and scenarios that don't quite sound right, and they usually have fairly sharp observation skills - the proverbial "eyes in the back of the head." Quite often the job of Mom requires being able to think fast in any situation, and come up with diplomatic answers to soothe the most highly irrational and notoriously impatient people (toddlers and teenagers.)

That's one thing that's always bothered about Patsy talking about the heart on JB's hand, saying one day that she'd seen it and it was well-drawn, then announcing at the beginning of the interview first thing the very day that she had been mistaken and hadn't seen it after all, but must have read about it in the autopsy report (the same one her husband said they didn't read.)

How could she know how well-drawn it was to comment on that specific aspect of it if she'd never seen it...and didn't she have a less transparent way to correct the blunder she'd made it admitting she'd seen it than by using a tactic that is on the level of a grade school child? Who didn't see right through that?

I can guarantee you a sahm mom, or probably any mom present at that interview, would have zeroed in on that obvious attempt to do a complete turn-around and deny having actually seen it when she just said she had (and close/long enough to judge how well drawn it was) and asked Patsy the necessary questions to figure out if she saw it or not.

It's like this: suppose my 12 yr old daughter's teacher calls...some girls were caught passing notes, and it looks like my daughter was involved, but not clear. As I drive my daughter to school, I ask her about the note the teacher seized, and she tells me something she would only know if she had seen it herself - "It was written in very good penmanship." She goes to school and talks to her friends. They confer with each other, figuring out who knows what, who was asked what and by whom, what story was bunk and how to fix it, and by the time I pick my daughter up from school, she gets in the car and right away has a different story to tell. This time she tells me she was wrong - she hadn't seen the note after all, but she heard her teacher tell another teacher what it said in it.

First off, I'm tipped off that her story isn't right because she starts in on it without me even bringing it up. Obviously it's an issue of concern on her mind if it's the first thing she says as soon as she gets in the car. Second, it doesn't match with what she said yesterday...'what the note said'? She said it was written in very good penmanship...how do you go from knowing how well the letters were formed to only knowing the contents of the note by hearing one person rely the most basic info to another, without saying anything about the penmanship?

So then I'd be left asking myself...why is she changing her story? Why is she back-pedaling and denying she'd seen the note enough to assess a grade for penmanship, and why is it so important to her to start telling me that right away before I even ask her about it?

I think I know the answer in Patsy's case...she saw the heart, and admitted it when asked the first day. Then when she got done, she told JR and/or the attys what she'd said, and she realized she'd messed up bigtime by saying she'd not only seen the heart, but that she had got a good enough look to judge artistic ability...and then she was desperate enough to need to correct that admission that she either didn't realize or didn't care how obvious it was that she needed to change her story as soon as possible.

Wow, sorry for going on so long, but stuff that obvious in this case really boils my potatoes. Why weren't they tougher on the Rs? Why didn't they actually ask intense questions that require real answers that get somewhere, instead of make cordial conversation with them about the case and try to gain info in a round-about manner, taking care not upset poor, delicate, suffering, steel magnolia Patsy or cause stoic, detached JR to have to try to recall something clearly, or even know something about his own family?? ugh, like that interview with Smit where he practically supplies JR with the answers he wants to hear - what the hell. Send a woman in there, specifically a seasoned mother, and let her ferret out the plausible from the outright lies.

NP,

I for one appreciate the length of your post and how another instance of Patsy's lying is explained in detail. This case has been dissected by some of the best RDI's around and there is no way when you finished that a person coming in on it could not say, this is interesting - I need to find out more. I never ever see an IDI posting something like this. They just don't have the information or the details.

So thank you. Loved your post.
 
Yeah, double you tee eff on LA. First she's moving the body (she HAD to have known better!), convinced JR is dangerous, counting bullets, then she's consoling sobbing Patsy as Burke is interviewed, then she's thrilled to accept flowers from 'John and Patsy' and has developed complete amnesia about whatever happened on 12/26/96, telling BPD to just go with what she had written in her reports...and now she's regained her memory enough to be writing a book about how we don't know 90% of the facts.

She wasn't a mother at the time, Albert, and opposite of honing the skill of sniffing out a snow job by raising kids, she was known for her compassion and listening skills as well as her caring and sympathetic style (PMPT, page 12.) She specialized on sexual assault cases prior to the Ramsey case, and I guarantee you those witnesses were a different cup of tea than J&P Ramsey. She didn't stand a chance in the face of manipulators like the Rs if she treated them the same way she handled actual victims, and we know Eller had sent word that the Rs be treated as victims and not suspects....but if she really thought JR was dangerous and counted her bullets, how did she do such a 180 later on and decide he wasn't? What about the weirdness with his supposedly finding a window open but instead of yelling for LA to come see it, he closes it and keeps his mouth similarly closed about it for four months?

I also find Patsy's need to address the issue with the heart rather odd and very risky....it was that transparent. I can't believe IDI actually excuse it as Patsy being distraught and in such mourning that she can't think straight. I don't know which is more pathetic - Patsy trying to pass that off as truth in such an obvious fashion, or the interviewers failing to zone in on it and get some real answers about whether she'd seen the heart or not.

The 'well-drawn' comment leads me to believe that Patsy knew exactly who drew the heart, or whatever it was, and that it may very well have been her. I also suspect if Patsy was the person who put that drawing on JB's hand, it was some sort of act to make things better, an endearment, perhaps an attempt at an apology.

The fact that she admitted to even seeing it in the first place kinda makes me think she knew JB drew it - I think she would have staunchly denied seeing it at all if she had actually been the one who drew it. She tried to distance herself like that from all of the items at the breakfast table, right down to box of Kleenex. I assume she would have tried to distance herself from the heart just as hard if she had drawn it after JB was injured/dead with complete denial of ever having seen anything even remotely resembling a drawing on JonBenet's person ever at any time.

Another great post. It is hard to even speak of LA without taking a valium. The woman did everything wrong. Everything and takes no responsibility at all. She basically destroyed this case at the get and then the rest is history - what does it matter.

She allowed John to pick her up and she herself covered her. She allowed John to leave her sight for some two hours - this is in her transcript - I know I could have done better. What is so hard about saying - Everyone is staying in the sun room until more help arrives. If there is a call from the kidnappers (when hell does eventually freeze over) John please answer the phone and I will pick up the extension. But everyone stays in the sunroom. Everyone. :bang:
 
Who spells "attache" correctly with the accent, (as well as every word in the rest of the note except: "bussiness") while (deliberately) mis-spelling "Bussiness"? An educated American trying to mislead police.

Exactly!! And attaché is a FRENCH word....just like, JonBenét, Jacque 1 and 2....and not only the NAME of the two dogs that they owned...but, also the BREED of dog. Patsy loved ALL things French....even JB's pediatrician had a french name....and also the little ceramic man that she hid her key under....Pierre.
 
Hi Ames!!!!!

Welcome Back!

Thanks...its good to be back....although, I have limited time now, so I don't get on the board much, anymore. Summer Renae was born Nov. 16th...she weighed 7 lbs. 2 oz. and was 19 1/2 inches long. Needless to say...our Thanksgiving was more special than ever, this year!
 
Thanks...its good to be back....although, I have limited time now, so I don't get on the board much, anymore. Summer Renae was born Nov. 16th...she weighed 7 lbs. 2 oz. and was 19 1/2 inches long. Needless to say...our Thanksgiving was more special than ever, this year!

Welcome back and congratulations. It is never the same without you. Give little Summer Renae snuggles cuddles and love from all of us here. Babies are the most precious of all.
 
Welcome back and congratulations. It is never the same without you. Give little Summer Renae snuggles cuddles and love from all of us here. Babies are the most precious of all.

Thanks CK!! I missed you guys, and it's good to be back. I will give Summer snuggles and cuddles....from all of her cyber aunts here at Websleuths!
 
Thanks...its good to be back....although, I have limited time now, so I don't get on the board much, anymore. Summer Renae was born Nov. 16th...she weighed 7 lbs. 2 oz. and was 19 1/2 inches long. Needless to say...our Thanksgiving was more special than ever, this year!

Ohhhhhhh boy, THIS IS SO EXCITING. I HAVE THOUGHT OF YOU AND THE BABY OFTEN.

CONGRATULATIONS AMES!!!!:blowkiss:
 
:blowkiss: Congratulations and a welcome to the world to Summer Renae! I hope you are recovered from the birth! Glad to see you back.
 
Ohhhhhhh boy, THIS IS SO EXCITING. I HAVE THOUGHT OF YOU AND THE BABY OFTEN.

CONGRATULATIONS AMES!!!!:blowkiss:
CONGRATULATIONS FROM ME TOO, AMES. HOW WONDERFUL!
GREAT TO SEE YOU BACK!:blowkiss:
 
Ohhhhhhh boy, THIS IS SO EXCITING. I HAVE THOUGHT OF YOU AND THE BABY OFTEN.

CONGRATULATIONS AMES!!!!:blowkiss:

Thanks Solace...I sent you an email with some pictures of her, did you not get it? I will resend it, if you didn't.

I am so glad to be back!!! I missed all of you!!
 

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